Author Topic: I'm amazed at how many people have the wrong idea... (Read 48951 times)

More Cowbell · « **Reply #40 on:** October 23, 2007, 02:00:50 pm »

Pitbulls are perfectly safe, until they're not, which is the point. You never know when they won't be safe any more and no one who has any kind of risk aversion for their kids is willing to bet the life or face of their child on the possibility that this particular pitbull won't go off. Pitbulls have their place in junkyards.

shardian · « **Reply #41 on:** October 23, 2007, 02:06:13 pm »

I just think it is funny that Tommy and Schmokes stayed up until 3am arguing about this.

billf · « **Reply #42 on:** October 23, 2007, 02:12:35 pm »

Quote from: shardian on October 23, 2007, 02:06:13 pm

I just think it is funny that Tommy and Schmokes stayed up until 3am arguing about this.

I gave up chuckling at their back and forth around 1am.

shmokes · « **Reply #43 on:** October 23, 2007, 02:39:35 pm »

I'm a law student. Trust me, it ain't BYOAC that's keeping me up till 3 a.m. (though if I stopped allowing myself to be distracted by it I might have got to bed by 2 a.m., admittedly)

tommy · « **Reply #44 on:** October 23, 2007, 03:13:39 pm »

I like how some of you like to use the fear of the unknown here and how the dog can just "snap" By saying that it allows all of you to not have to come up with any real reason or facts on these dogs and just take the easy ridiculous way out and just damn the whole breed without having to form any real idea as to why the dog really did what he did.

Now, i don't know about other dogs and how other dogs were raised from a pup and what they went through at a young age. I don't know what guy trained (or didn't train) these other pit bulls you speak of and now after your next door neighbor has him he is willing to bite people. My dog is a normal everyday dog that you wouldn't think twice about, period, and i take offense at people who want to throw my dog in with the rest.

Some of you wonder why i made another thread or why i continue to talk about this and it's very simple why. I can't let your crazy ideas about these dogs go by and if you had your way you would make decisions for everyone and have them all killed. This is like a Nazi pit bull hater board from a time not so fun in history. You remember the last group of people who were naive enough to think stupid things about another certain group of people, don't you?

BTW, this glass business is mine so there is no company i represent..

Barry Barcrest · « **Reply #45 on:** October 23, 2007, 03:23:59 pm »

Quote from: tommy on October 23, 2007, 01:32:20 am

This is not a believe of whether there is a god or not. This is a fact that some people cannot grasp the idea that a well trained dog is not dangerous no matter the breed.

WRONG! Some dogs a so inbread or badly crossbred that they are actually retarded. You tend to notice these dogs as their owners are much alike.

SithMaster · « **Reply #46 on:** October 23, 2007, 03:27:13 pm »

Quote from: tommy on October 23, 2007, 03:13:39 pm

I like how some of you like to use the fear of the unknown here and how the dog can just "snap" By saying that it allows all of you to not have to come up with any real reason or facts on these dogs and just take the easy ridiculous way out and just damn the whole breed without having to form any real idea as to why the dog really did what he did.

Now, i don't know about other dogs and how other dogs were raised from a pup and what they went through at a young age. I don't know what guy trained (or didn't train) these other pit bulls you speak of and now after your next door neighbor has him he is willing to bite people. My dog is a normal everyday dog that you wouldn't think twice about, period, and i take offense at people who want to throw my dog in with the rest.

Some of you wonder why i made another thread or why i continue to talk about this and it's very simple why. I can't let your crazy ideas about these dogs go by and if you had your way you would make decisions for everyone and have them all killed. This is like a Nazi pit bull hater board from a time not so fun in history. You remember the last group of people who were naive enough to think stupid things about another certain group of people, don't you?

BTW, this glass business is mine so there is no company i represent..

See title.

MikeQ · « **Reply #47 on:** October 23, 2007, 03:27:41 pm »

Just look at the statistics on dog bites and you'll see Pit Bulls have a much higher than normal incident rate:

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog%20Attacks%201982%20to%202006%20Clifton.pdf

There are also many states that have an outright ban on owning Pit Bulls.

I live in Florida and Florida is planning similiar leigislation banning Pit Bulls and has already done so in areas of Miami.

SithMaster · « **Reply #48 on:** October 23, 2007, 03:29:45 pm »

Wait you're saying you cant let our crazy ideas about dogs go by? This has to be illegal.

Ed_McCarron · « **Reply #49 on:** October 23, 2007, 03:37:05 pm »

Quote from: MikeQ on October 23, 2007, 03:27:41 pm

Just look at the statistics on dog bites and you'll see Pit Bulls have a much higher than normal incident rate:

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog%20Attacks%201982%20to%202006%20Clifton.pdf

There are also many states that have an outright ban on owning Pit Bulls.

I live in Florida and Florida is planning similiar leigislation banning Pit Bulls and has already done so in areas of Miami.

For some reason, I trust the data supplied by the editor of a dog publication more than I trust the data supplied by a pro pit bull website.

ChadTower · « **Reply #50 on:** October 23, 2007, 03:39:54 pm »

Wow. One kid got killed by a beagle.

SithMaster · « **Reply #51 on:** October 23, 2007, 03:41:12 pm »

In Snoopy's defense he was drunk.

Ed_McCarron · « **Reply #52 on:** October 23, 2007, 03:42:36 pm »

Quote from: ChadTower on October 23, 2007, 03:39:54 pm

Wow. One kid got killed by a beagle.

Because the kid had the leash around its neck and the dog strangled it.

Duh. "Hey honey, hold on... I'll tie the dog to the 2 year olds neck and be right there..."

ChadTower · « **Reply #53 on:** October 23, 2007, 03:43:58 pm »

Still, that's pretty damn ironic. I had a beagle. The thing barely even blinked nevermind moved around. I used to check it to make sure it hadn't died with its eyes open.

SithMaster · « **Reply #54 on:** October 23, 2007, 03:47:46 pm »

Maybe the beagle thought the guy wanted him to walk the kid

shardian · « **Reply #55 on:** October 23, 2007, 03:49:40 pm »

Quote from: MikeQ on October 23, 2007, 03:27:41 pm

Just look at the statistics on dog bites and you'll see Pit Bulls have a much higher than normal incident rate:

http://www.dogbitelaw.com/Dog%20Attacks%201982%20to%202006%20Clifton.pdf

There are also many states that have an outright ban on owning Pit Bulls.

I live in Florida and Florida is planning similiar leigislation banning Pit Bulls and has already done so in areas of Miami.

Holy hell. Pure Bred Pitt Bulls make up 50% of the attacks on that list...and that is not including trained fighter dogs. Next, Tommy will be saying your statistic is unfairly biased against Pitt Bulls.

shmokes · « **Reply #56 on:** October 23, 2007, 04:00:29 pm »

Tommy, pit bulls are more dangerous. Arguing otherwise it's just flatly retarded and makes people dismiss EVERYTHING you have to say. Argue your case with intelligence, man! You can't change the facts. Statistics show beyond any doubt that pit bulls are more dangerous than almost any other breed of dog. Arguing that by sheer coincidence all those pit bulls just happened to have a ---smurfy--- upbringing is absurd. You will never, ever convince people that pit bulls are not more dangerous when you have objective facts that prove otherwise.

Pointing to your well behaved dogs doesn't change anything. That's what is known as anecdotal evidence. If the argument people were making is that all pit bulls are deadly dangerous all the time and want nothing but to eat babies every second of the day, then yeah, you could point to your pit bulls and say, "Nope . . . mine have eaten very few babies, and only on special occasions." But that's not the argument you have to deal with, so that won't work. The argument you have to deal with is that pit bulls attack and kill people much more often than other breeds of dogs. It is an incontrovertible fact. They just do. If you want to be successful you need to deal with that fact sensibly, not insist that it doesn't exist, because the people you are arguing with happen to know that it does, in fact, exist.

Stop pretending that pit bulls are no more dangerous than other kinds of dogs and start pointing out that sports cars are more dangerous than sedans, yet we don't ban sports cars. Swords are more dangerous than knives (all things being equal) but we don't ban swords. Football is more dangerous than Tennis, but we don't ban football. Beer (especially 3.2 beer) is less dangerous than liquor but we don't ban liquor. The mere fact that less dangerous alternatives exist does not automatically justify a ban of the more dangerous item. There are other factors that need to be looked at. How dangerous is it objectively? Is it really a major problem in terms of the number of attacks, or is it just a well reported problem, i.e., are a relatively small number of attacks every year getting blown out of proportion and painting a picture that is far far worse than reality? Even if it turns out that the numbers show that there is a serious problem, is it something that could be dealt with through sensible regulation as opposed to an outright ban that would hurt hundreds or thousands of responsible pit bull owners?

It's not like your side has no good arguments, but you're ignoring them completely in favor of a extreme position that is simply insupportable. It makes you sound like Xiaou2. Even if you have good things to say, your audience is blinded by your lunacy and extremism and refusal to accept the reality of the situation.

Ed_McCarron · « **Reply #57 on:** October 23, 2007, 04:01:00 pm »

The more I think about it, those #'s have to be bogus.

That percentage is way skewed.

Its a ---smurfette--- to find unbiased dog bite info.

ChadTower · « **Reply #58 on:** October 23, 2007, 04:11:23 pm »

Most animal bites go unreported anyway. You'd never know how many small bites happen, and compared to a pit bull, almost all bites are small. The info probably comes from ER and Police reports... no one is going to report a chihuaha bite.

shardian · « **Reply #59 on:** October 23, 2007, 04:11:41 pm »

Tommy,
In this subject, no amount of championing on your part based on your single ownership of a Pitt Bull is going to convince anyone to change their stance against these dogs.

As I have said before, my neighbor has a female Pit Bull, and what I am fairly certain now is a male Bull Mastiff/Pit Bull mix - both of which are not tied down and are allowed to just hang out in the neighborhood with their front yard as home base. The pisser is the guy has a huge back yard with a full privacy fence he could keep them in! The male is big as hell, all muscle, mean looking, and very territorial due to the female. He has approached me in an intimidating manner twice now while I push my 8 month old daughter in a stroller. I will be the first to admit the female is cute and friendly, but I wouldn't trust her anywhere near my little girl either. The addition of the male is more than I can bear. We don't have a leash law, and I have talked to our homeowners president - and several other homeowners have apparently done the same after being approached by the growling male. The president is friends with the guy, and will be speaking with him tonight.

It is ---smurfing--- ridiculous that I have to carry a weapon with me while walking to the mailbox (we have grouped boxes)just in case one of those damn dogs decides I "crossed the line". I WILL kill that ---smurfing--- dog if it so much as comes within striking distance while growling at me.

So, Tommy, just because you have the worlds greatest Pitt Bull, does not mean they are a Happy go lucky breed. You are complaining that everyone else is making a blanket statement comdemning the breed, and you're damn right about that in most cases. The thing is, you are also making a blanket statement. How long do you plan on running in a circle like a ---Bad words, bad words, whatcha gonna do? Whatcha gonna do when saint censors you?--- over this subject? Like I said before, the female pit is a beautiful dog and is great with the guys kids. She is a ball of energy and doesn't appear to have the slightest amount of aggression in her. Doesn't matter one bit either- there is the possibility that at some point something will arouse her aggression and she will act on it and I don't plan on her being anywhere near me or my family when and if it happens - plain and simple.

And just so we are clear, if you ever disappear and quit posting, it is a safe assumption that the majority of the forum will assume one of two things:
1. Your dog snapped and bit your face off
2. You were arrested for attempting to steal Eli Manning's jock strap...while he still had it on.

shmokes · « **Reply #60 on:** October 23, 2007, 04:23:05 pm »

Jesus . . . no leash law? That's crazy. I didn't know that even existed in residential areas.

tommy · « **Reply #61 on:** October 23, 2007, 04:25:36 pm »

You keep talking about dogs that are not trained. All the people in these cases where a dog bites someone the owner is a casual dog owner and knows nothing about dogs and just have them for fun.

When you train a dog properly there is no Territorial issues or dogs snapping at each other, everything is in harmony when things are done right. These dogs you keep mentioning have serious mental problems, it sounds funny but it's true and it can happen when they don't know who is in control of their life from the owner. I agree the dogs are big and hard to control when they go after a person but it's the owners fault when this happens.

SithMaster · « **Reply #62 on:** October 23, 2007, 04:29:44 pm »

Quote from: shardian on October 23, 2007, 04:11:41 pm

It is ---smurfing--- ridiculous that I have to carry a weapon with me while walking to the mailbox (we have grouped boxes)just in case one of those damn dogs decides I "crossed the line". I WILL kill that ---smurfing--- dog if it so much as comes within striking distance while growling at me.

What kind of weapon?

So you assume a customer of yours will take the time to train a dog they just got referred to? Unless you gave them informational pamphlets. Did you give them informational pamphlets?

Actually different species of dog will act and react differently no matter how much you want them not to. Centuries of being breed by man has made them behave the way they were required to.

ChadTower · « **Reply #63 on:** October 23, 2007, 04:30:56 pm »

Quote from: tommy on October 23, 2007, 04:25:36 pm

When you train a dog properly there is no Territorial issues or dogs snapping at each other, everything is in harmony when things are done right.

Your statement is not true. You cannot eliminate territorialism in a dog. You can train them to suppress it but you cannot say "there are no issues". Any male dog, when the female is in heat, will be aggressive in keeping you away from her. How they go about it will vary by breed and individual dog but what you are saying is flat out untrue. You can train behaviour into a dog but you cannot train the dog out of the dog. Frankly, I don't see why anyone would even want to do that.

Even a beagle will have the urge to protect its territory no matter how well trained.

shmokes · « **Reply #64 on:** October 23, 2007, 04:34:08 pm »

Uh oh . . .

I tried to warn you away from these extreme positions Tommy, and now look what you've done.

tommy · « **Reply #65 on:** October 23, 2007, 04:36:57 pm »

Quote from: shmokes on October 23, 2007, 04:34:08 pm

Uh oh . . . I tried to warn you away from these extreme positions Tommy, and now look what you've done.

Hey you said you agree with me on the general fact of this so lets hear some of your fancy lawyer talk.

Get through to them before i sick my pit bull on them.

CheffoJeffo · « **Reply #66 on:** October 23, 2007, 04:37:53 pm »

Quote from: tommy on October 23, 2007, 03:13:39 pm

I like how some of you like to use the fear of the unknown here and how the dog can just "snap" By saying that it allows all of you to not have to come up with any real reason or facts on these dogs and just take the easy ridiculous way out and just damn the whole breed without having to form any real idea as to why the dog really did what he did.

And I like how people choose to make ridiculous and unsubstantiated statements like "it's the owner, not the dog" ... that shows a profound lack of understanding of animals in general and dogs in particular.

That is not to say that it is the breed and not the owner, but it is clear that there are behaviours and temperments that are specific to breeds (and I have had family members who owned Pit Bulls, including at least one who actually fought in the pits and was rescued by a cousin of mine ... and he was an absolute angel, except for the burglar that he caught ... having said that, there is no way I would ever want that animal around my kids).

Quote from: tommy on October 23, 2007, 03:13:39 pm

Now, i don't know about other dogs

And that is EXACTLY why you are completely unqualified to make any assertions regarding dogs or behaviour. You seem to think that your specific experience to date is tantamount to proof that the breed is sound and safe. I know of at least five owners of pit bulls (knowledge related to breed rescue) that said exactly what you have said ... until their dog attacked (2 attacked people and 3 attacked another dog).

My personal belief is that Pit Bulls are not suitable a suitable breed for the family pet and should be subject to strict regulation.

Quote from: tommy on October 23, 2007, 03:13:39 pm

My dog is a normal everyday dog that you wouldn't think twice about, period, and i take offense at people who want to throw my dog in with the rest.

I have had and raised dogs all of my life and EVERY dog is one that you should think twice (or even three times) about ... to do otherwise is irresponsible and demonstrates a lack of understanding or appreciation for dogs in general.

Quote from: tommy on October 23, 2007, 03:13:39 pm

BTW, this glass business is mine so there is no company i represent..

Certainly not for much longer based on your stellar customer relation skills.

shardian · « **Reply #67 on:** October 23, 2007, 04:39:23 pm »

Quote from: tommy on October 23, 2007, 04:25:36 pm

You keep talking about dogs that are not trained. All the people in these cases where a dog bites someone the owner is a casual dog owner and knows nothing about dogs and just have them for fun.

When you train a dog properly there is no Territorial issues or dogs snapping at each other, everything is in harmony when things are done right. These dogs you keep mentioning have serious mental problems, it sounds funny but it's true and it can happen when they don't know who is in control of their life from the owner. I agree the dogs are big and hard to control when they go after a person but it's the owners fault when this happens.

Yes, we should all assume that every single dog owner in the whole country is an avid dog owner who devotes their life to the most sophisticated and thorough training they have at their disposal. Here is an example of the dog training that most people give their dogs.

"Spot, here is your food bowl"
"Spot, here is your crate"
"Spot, here is where you ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---"

Done, and done.

shmokes · « **Reply #68 on:** October 23, 2007, 04:40:49 pm »

Quote from: tommy on October 23, 2007, 04:36:57 pm

Hey you said you agree with me on the general fact of this so lets hear some of your fancy lawyer talk.

Hey . . . all that already exists in the last pit bull thread. You're the one who chose to start a brand new one. Just go back to the last one and plagiarize the stuff I said in there.

shmokes · « **Reply #69 on:** October 23, 2007, 04:42:57 pm »

Quote from: shmokes on October 23, 2007, 04:00:29 pm

Stop pretending that pit bulls are no more dangerous than other kinds of dogs and start pointing out that sports cars are more dangerous than sedans, yet we don't ban sports cars. Swords are more dangerous than knives (all things being equal) but we don't ban swords. Football is more dangerous than Tennis, but we don't ban football. Beer (especially 3.2 beer) is less dangerous than liquor but we don't ban liquor. The mere fact that less dangerous alternatives exist does not automatically justify a ban of the more dangerous item. There are other factors that need to be looked at. How dangerous is it objectively? Is it really a major problem in terms of the number of attacks, or is it just a well reported problem, i.e., are a relatively small number of attacks every year getting blown out of proportion and painting a picture that is far far worse than reality? Even if it turns out that the numbers show that there is a serious problem, is it something that could be dealt with through sensible regulation as opposed to an outright ban that would hurt hundreds or thousands of responsible pit bull owners?

Anyway, did you not see this like five posts up?

tommy · « **Reply #70 on:** October 23, 2007, 04:44:05 pm »

Quote from: shardian on October 23, 2007, 04:39:23 pm

Quote from: tommy on October 23, 2007, 04:25:36 pm
You keep talking about dogs that are not trained. All the people in these cases where a dog bites someone the owner is a casual dog owner and knows nothing about dogs and just have them for fun.

When you train a dog properly there is no Territorial issues or dogs snapping at each other, everything is in harmony when things are done right. These dogs you keep mentioning have serious mental problems, it sounds funny but it's true and it can happen when they don't know who is in control of their life from the owner. I agree the dogs are big and hard to control when they go after a person but it's the owners fault when this happens.

Yes, we should all assume that every single dog owner in the whole country is an avid dog owner who devotes their life to the most sophisticated and thorough training they have at their disposal. Here is an example of the dog training that most people give their dogs.

"Spot, here is your food bowl"
"Spot, here is your crate"
"Spot, here is where you ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---"

Done, and done.

They NEED to put in the time or they should no be allowed to own a dog, especially a pit bull or other big dogs. When a dog gets out of control the owner is responsible. You gotta take responsibility with these dogs, they are not a toy and just like a child they need direction and need to know what is required of them by you taking charge and leading them, yes by leading.

CheffoJeffo · « **Reply #71 on:** October 23, 2007, 04:44:34 pm »

Quote from: tommy on October 23, 2007, 04:25:36 pm

When you train a dog properly there is no Territorial issues or dogs snapping at each other, everything is in harmony when things are done right.

Show me a professional trainer who will substantiate that ridiculous statement.

In conversations with several trainers, I have been told that at best you can suppress and (better) redirect the instinctual responses. And that, for certain, there are going to be pairs of dogs that will not get along.

How extensive is your dog-training experience ? Do you do that on the side ?

I'd hate to think that you will have to fall back on that when your glass business goes under ...

CheffoJeffo · « **Reply #72 on:** October 23, 2007, 04:46:29 pm »

Quote from: tommy on October 23, 2007, 04:44:05 pm

They NEED to put in the time or they should no be allowed to own a dog, especially a pit bull or other big dogs. When a dog gets out of control the owner is responsible. You gotta take responsibility with these dogs, they are not a toy and just like a child they need direction and need to know what is required of them by you taking charge and leading them, yes by leading.

Just so you don't think I'm beating up on you for fun ... I agree 100% with everything that you just said.

Ed_McCarron · « **Reply #73 on:** October 23, 2007, 04:48:26 pm »

Plus, you have the wackos that treat pits like fuzzy guns.

In that case, you should euthanize the dog AND the owner.

shardian · « **Reply #74 on:** October 23, 2007, 04:48:54 pm »

Quote from: SithMaster on October 23, 2007, 04:29:44 pm

What kind of weapon?

The other day, I had a small sledge hammer in the car I bought at the harbor freight sidewalk sale. It was handy, so I carried it on our walk.

Hell, a stick won't do a damn thing to a monster like that if it comes after you. Having seen video of Pit bull fights, I doubt even a sledge hammer would help me much.

This weekend, I am going to the flea market to get one of those stun batons for my wife to carry. The sound of that thing will probably be enough to make any dog stop and rethink their priorities.

And yes, amazingly our county does not have a leash law. Even if our homeowners association enacted one, it would be completely unenforceable due to the county situation.

ChadTower · « **Reply #75 on:** October 23, 2007, 04:51:07 pm »

The part that makes me nervous is his lack of understanding of how the alpha male dynamic works. Sooner or later that dog is going to take its shot at becoming alpha male. Maybe it will just growl around a bit and back down... maybe it will rip his ribcage out. Depends on the dog, really. There is also going to be a time when someone or some other dog challenges that dog's spot in the hierarchy - that will be when it is forced to protect its spot as #2. Odds are it will be a visiting dog, maybe a dog passing on the street... but god forbid it be a 5 year old niece that somehow challenges for #2 in the pack. That's the thing that motivates pit bulls more than other dogs. They are extraordinarily reactive to pecking order challenges.

Cheffo, when I was a kid I used to train dogs with two guys who had been doing it 35 years and had been taught by their own father who did it 40. These guys developed a breed, training methods, and hunting style. Took them decades. Just the concept of what tommy is saying about changing the basic nature of the dog would have gotten him thrown off the property.

shardian · « **Reply #76 on:** October 23, 2007, 04:56:14 pm »

Quote from: tommy on October 23, 2007, 04:44:05 pm

They NEED to put in the time or they should no be allowed to own a dog, especially a pit bull or other big dogs. When a dog gets out of control the owner is responsible. You gotta take responsibility with these dogs, they are not a toy and just like a child they need direction and need to know what is required of them by you taking charge and leading them, yes by leading.

That is true. Unfortunately, they don't which is why lawmakers are being pressured to enact laws banning the ownership of Pit Bulls. So instead of bitching on here, go whine and complain to your fellow Pit Bull owners.

Ed_McCarron · « **Reply #77 on:** October 23, 2007, 04:56:25 pm »

Quote from: ChadTower on October 23, 2007, 04:51:07 pm

Cheffo, when I was a kid I used to train dogs

Can you just post a list of what you -haven't- done? It might save bandwidth.

shmokes · « **Reply #78 on:** October 23, 2007, 05:00:54 pm »

My brother is a professional dog trainer. He used to train obedience and protection but got bored with it and trains/breeds stock dogs exclusively. He's won many championships in stock dog trialling (think Babe, the sheep pig), including the Utah and Nevada state championships (he actually held those simultaneously at one point). When he raises and trains a dog it regularly sells in the neighborhood of $10k (a couple of guys with a couple of good stock dogs can turn a three-day trip with 6 or 8 guys to gather a herd of cows or sheep off a mountain into a single afternoon of minimal effort). He essentially reiterates exactly what Chad just said.

ChadTower · « **Reply #79 on:** October 23, 2007, 05:01:23 pm »

I've mentioned this particular thing before. If you come across a copy of this book it talks about the couple of guys in southern NS that are credited with developing that breed and the tolling style it uses. The name used is my great grandfather and I think my great uncle as well but my memory is foggy on the second one. I caught the very tail end of my great uncle training the dogs before his health started to fail. Those guys knew more in their pinky about dog training than most professionals will ever learn.


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