D9200 & ArcadeVGA vs. other video card

[jekyll]

So I realize that this issue has come up multiple times  in the past, but given some of the recent changes in ArcadeVGA (Andy's new res utility, for example), I wanted to get some input from you guys on this one. I am still a newbie, in the process of planning a cab both for myself and a similar one for a friend. I am planning on building both of these within the next two months, and have acquired pretty much all of the parts I'll need except for the monitor and video card. After spending a lot of time here on the board, I am leaning towards the D9200 - more expensive, but seems like the benefits outweigh the costs in the long run. Regarding the video card, however, I'm a little at a loss. I was initally planning on using Trident T64 card, but now am wondering about the ArcadeVGA. Also, I realize that AdvanceMame gives me the best "realism" factor, but it seems somewhat complex, especially for the cab I'm building for the friend. I would like something a little more "user-friendly", and so was going to use one of the other Mame frontends around.
I plan to run the system in Windows XP, fast computer, enough RAM, etc. Any thoughts/comments/suggestions before I get started on this and order these items?
Again, specifically wondering about
1) ArcadeVGA vs. another video card - issue is mainly cost, in that ArcadeVGA is $85, while T64 is about $30
2) Using AdvanceMAME or another program with the D9200 and video card

Thanks guys, your input on this board in response to other questions has made everything I've done so far possible on this thing! I'll definitely post some pics as I get started on the cabs, and will probably ask for some more input as I run into problems (hopefully not many!)

[desmatic]

Bascially, ArcadeVGA was designed to display 240 lines at 15kHz x 60Hz.  The D9200 can run x192 (doublescan), x224, x240, x256, x384 at various hclocks.  If you use ArcadeVGA you are perfectly emulating only one mode out of five, x240, which is not even the most popular mode. x224 is.  So basically.

Using Windows MAME with ArcadeVGA
(1) supports all windows operatings systems, including Windows XP

Using AdvanceMAME with the D9200
(1) requires either T64, Matrox G400, or ATI Radeon 7500 (Original Retail Release)
(2) requires Windows 9x (DOS based OS) or Linux
(3) Enables perfect emulation

ArcadeVGA was not designed for the D9200, it was designed for a typical 15.7kHz arcade monitor.  If enough people ask Andy, over at Ultimarc, to design a mode list for just this monitor, then you would have a perfect alternative to AdvanceMAME.  Actually, a mode list designed for a PC monitor, would be cool as well.

[Veto]

There are definitely some mixed opinions on this issue.  I asked Andy at Ultimarc what the best monitor would be for his Arcade VGA card, and he said the WG D9200.

[desmatic]

He is correct, of course, it is the best monitor for the ArcadeVGA.  It's pretty much the best arcade monitor, period.

[Veto]

Well I'd like to hear from some people that have this setup.  My Arcade VGA card just arrived a half hour ago and D9200 should be here today as well.  I'll post a full review of the setup when it's up and running.

[Frostillicus]

This specific topic has been getting hashed out quite a bit lately - this is what I understand to be true as of now:

the D9200 is the best to work with the arcadevga card, and due to the new utility you will get the 31Khz(640x480 and 800x600) along with the card's standard 15Khz.  Though you won't get 25Khz (i think?) with it.   Best option if you have XP.


Jekyll : Post results when you figure it out - examples of what games display natively and what ones need hardware stretching, the desktop resolutions, how PC games look etc.  And how easy it is to switch between resolutions (auto? manual?).  That could help a bit.  

[desmatic]

Yes, but its not just x384 at 25kHz that's missing, most modes are missing / incorrect.  Basically, from what I understand of Ultimarc's ArcadeVGA, you'd have to create a list of modes specifically tailored for the D9200 and then flash them into the card's bios.  Of course, MAME would still have to know which mode to call for each game.

[Veto]

Where's Andy to give us the bottom line?  From my understanding it is only games that run 25Khz that require hardware stretching, and all others can run natively.

[tom61]

Yes, but its not just x384 at 25kHz that's missing, most modes are missing / incorrect.  Basically, from what I understand of Ultimarc's ArcadeVGA, you'd have to create a list of modes specifically tailored for the D9200 and then flash them into the card's bios.

Why would you need to tailor the 15KHz modes for the D9200? I could see the 24KHz modes, but not the 15KHz modes, since the D9200 takes 15KHz natively.

I'm curious, do you have the ArcadeVGA card? I don't see a review of it on your site, but it comes up in your 'best video card' section alot.

Bascially, ArcadeVGA was designed to display 240 lines at 15kHz x 60Hz.  The D9200 can run x192 (doublescan), x224, x240, x256, x384 at various hclocks.  If you use ArcadeVGA you are perfectly emulating only one mode out of five, x240,

The ArcadeVGA also does x256.

which is not even the most popular mode. x224 is.

Where did you get this little bit of info? I'm interested in the real resolutions of the boards, but haven't found much outside of 'standard res' when it comes to this.

[desmatic]

Why would you need to tailor the 15KHz modes for the D9200? I could see the 24KHz modes, but not the 15KHz modes, since the D9200 takes 15KHz natively.

If you run x240 lines at 15.7kHz, then yes.  But the the D9200 is capable of 15.7kHz with a 1-2kHz error margin. This 1-2kHz margin enables you to perfectly emulate x224 lines.  ArcadeVGA simply draws x224 lines in a x240 line mode.  Hence the blank space at the top and bottom of the screen in these modes.  This is mentioned in the documentation.  It is also a PHYSICAL limitation of CRT technology.  Just like you can't drive a car to the moon because it is physically impossible, you can't display x192 - x256 line modes without changing either the vclock or the hclock of a CRT.

I'm curious, do you have the ArcadeVGA card? I don't see a review of it on your site, but it comes up in your 'best video card' section alot.

Everything I have said about the ArcadeVGA is taken directly from its documenation.  I've never tested one, and I don't really need to.  Andy has clearly posted what it can do, and how it works.

The ArcadeVGA also does x256.

x256 is an abreviation for  

262 lines (256 active + 06 blanking) x 60 Hz = 15.7 kHz

It's physically impossible to perfectly emulate both these modes on the same monitor

262 lines (240 active + 22 blanking) x 60 Hz = 15.7 kHz
262 lines (256 active + 06 blanking) x 60 Hz = 15.7 kHz

Unless you recenter your games between modes.


Where did you get this little bit of info? I'm interested in the real resolutions of the boards, but haven't found much outside of 'standard res' when it comes to this.

This information, precedes the start of every MAME game.  Most people just click through it.  Feel free to count them all.  I'm just guessing.

[jekyll]

Desmatic -
First off, looking at AdvanceMame's website documentation, it appears that it can also run under Windows XP, in addition to DOS/Linux. It doesn't appear that there would be any downside to running it in this fashion.
Now, I obviously haven't built or played significantly on one of these cabinets before. I know that we are all aiming for some sort of realism, or else why consider something as expensive as the D9200, which has a much more realistic picture than a TV or PC monitor. That being said, however, is there a very noticable difference following your recommendation (advancemame & card other than ArcadeVGA) vs going a simpler route and using a windows-based mame emulator instead of advancemame? Is this something that is noticeable on 5 games out of 3000, or does it affect a majority of the games available?
Finally, it does sound like there has been a lot of interest in getting Andy to allow the ArcadeVGA to go to different frequencies - guess we'll have to see where that goes. GUess it brings up the next question, which is, what's so great about the ArcadeVGA? As I see it, it allows for 640x480 & 800x600 resolution in addition to the standard arcade monitor resolution, meaning that games look good and Windows looks good. If the Trident card can do the same, then I'm perfectly happy going that route. Since I do plan to run this thing in a Windows environment, I just need a card that will allow a tolerable Windows appearance when not running MAME in addition to a great appearance when actually playing.

Would also like to hear about the results of the ArcadeVGA + D9200 setup mentioned a couple of posts below my original one.

Thoughts?

[desmatic]

Wow, all those are great questions.  I'll do my best to answer them all as clearly as I can.

As far as perfect emulation vs. good emulation.  This is obviously an opinion. It's like asking someone what their favorite color is.  Mine's purple, but you may wrongfully disagree if you like  

So here goes, IMHO

S-Video out to a TV and Windows MAME
(1) great looking emulation but not perfect
(2) very affordable and easy setup to get running.

ArcadeVGA on a 15kHz 19" arcade monitor.
(1) a nice way to bring an arcade cabinet to life, vsync is perfect (which is always nice)
(2) solid 3D / 2D performance that allows you to run things other than MAME on a cabinet.
(3) I imagine games look pretty damn good, though some may not be perfect.
(4) fairly easy to setup and get running.

Trident Blade T64 or ATI 7500 with AdvanceMAME on a D9200
(1) perfect emulation.
(2) requires Windows9x or linux (NT support is experimental)
(3) this setup is pretty much for the MAME enthusiast and requires a decent amount of technical knowledge.
(4) expensive, especially outside of the US.

Setups I don't care for too much

Windows MAME on a D9200 or PC monitor
(1) I prefer the looks of a TV.
(2) waste of good money.


Is this something that is noticeable on 5 games out of 3000, or does it affect a majority of the games available?  

Well, you ask a great question here.  Most of my friends can't see the difference between any of the above setups, except, of course, the PC based ones!!  So how noticable is it?  I guess this just depends on how good your arcade gaming memory is.  All of the above setups are pretty much great, though there are subtle differences between them all.  Many I talk to can only see the differences once I point them out.  So I don't know what to tell you here.  My favorite is obviously the one I run, but Windows MAME on a TV is a great looking, cheap, and easy alternative.  As far as ArcadeVGA goes, I know a lot about arcade monitors and AdvanceMAME, so it really doesn't do much for me.  It's great, though, for those that want an AdvanceMAME setup, but who aren't interested in all the technical nonsense that comes with getting one up and running.  Basically, it makes all the comprimises for you, which it does a very good job of, in my opinion, especially on 15kHz arcade monitors where there are a lot of comprimises to be made.  On a D9200, however, many comprimises can be thrown out the window, so they aren't as important.


As I see it, it allows for 640x480 & 800x600 resolution in addition to the standard arcade monitor resolution, meaning that games look good and Windows looks good.

Technically speaking, it should look the same, but I couldn't personally tell you, as I haven't tested it myself.


Since I do plan to run this thing in a Windows environment, I just need a card that will allow a tolerable Windows appearance when not running MAME in addition to a great appearance when actually playing.

The only real disadvantage to Windows9x is the 512MB maxium memory limit.  The hard drive limitation of 128GB doesn't seem to bother most, but still it does exists.  So be aware of it.

Basically, if your willing to run Windows9x, then you will have no problems with AdvvanceMAME or other Windows applications.  Contrary to popular practice, you don't have to run AdvanceMAME in pure DOS mode.  I don't.

[Frostillicus]

Desmatic -
First off, looking at AdvanceMame's website documentation, it appears that it can also run under Windows XP, in addition to DOS/Linux. It doesn't appear that there would be any downside to running it in this fashion.

Actually I believe there is some big differences/problems with advmame under xp - and some of the programming gurus around here can tell you specifics.   My beef is just that it doesn't emulate the keyboard led's at all in xp.  

[jekyll]

Alright, so things are now getting interesting!

Looking at your options, it seems as though you definitely like AdvanceMame, especially when using the D9200. As I see it (and from reading elsewhere on the boards), people seem to feel that running Windows Mame with a D9200 is sort of like buying a $3000 computer to do word processing only, i.e. it will do the job, but it's a bit of overkill. If I ONLY want to use Windows Mame, then maybe I should go the TV route...
I'm definitely a tech-type guy. Still a newbie in many respects, but I have no aversion to spending some time learning to configure AdvanceMame. So I don't think I'll be limiting myself to Windows Mame only, making the D9200 seem a bit more reasonable. As for the ArcadeVGA, it would seem that if I'm willing to take the leap on AdvanceMame, then I should just go for the Trident card, since I'll have to do some "techie" type work anyways, so might as well get the full benefit of the Trident over the compromises (albeit easier setups) of the ArcadeVGA.

So now here goes: I haven't used AdvanceMame, and the documentation on the website is good for setup, but not for getting a general idea of the end product. I need something that my wife, or my friend and his bunch of friends can use. They don't want to be messing around with config files, changing resolutions, etc. For my friend's machine, I imagine that I will build him the thing, set up everything using one of the latest Mame ROM sets and latest version of frontend & AdvanceMame, and then just leave the thing be. He's not going to be upgrading software, reconfiguring files, etc. He wants a standalone, play-dedicated machine. On mine, I can put up with a bit of tweaking here and there, but do want something that the average joe can play easily. So is AdvanceMame fairly transparent, especially when using something like AdvanceMenu. It seems that I will just need to do a bunch of legwork up front with configuring, but can then sort of sit back and just enjoy the thing. Has this been your experience?

Finally, the Windows XP/98/DOS/Linux thing. I have not yet taken the Linux leap, mainly because I've got too much stuff on my plate right now - job, papers, learning ColdFusion, darkroom, house, yard, and theoretically this cabinet. So I don't want to go down that road at the moment. I like Windows XP and it's running on the other 2 machines in my house. The XBox and main computer already have a nice wireless setup, and I was hoping to just add the cabinet in as a third computer. Having XP on there would be great because of the compatibility between the other two already set up, and I don't relish having to go back to Windows 98. I guess I'll need to check into the compatibility of AdvanceMame with XP and issues that others have had...

Also, do you run other emulators? I would imagine that the D9200/Trident set-up would be great with some of the other ones around - NES, SNES, Sega, etc - do you have any experience with this?

Thanks for your input - it has really helped, especially your thoughts on the monitor and video card. I realize that they are just opinions, but their clarity and breadth does give them some weight!

[desmatic]

For someone who doesn't clame to be a techie, you sure learn fast as hell.  Pretty much everything you said is dead on.  I don't think I could have summarized it better.

If you download easycab from my website, it will perform a default installation of AdvanceMAME with AdvanceMENU.  Just choose D9200 from the selection menu.  Once it's installed your done.  You can use later versions of easycab to update your setup.  Just select update from the menu.  

EasyCab will configure the D9200 for perfect emulation, so you really don't have to worry so much about the details.  Just use your arcade monitor controls to center your games The D9200 can store 3 different centering modes, one at 15kHz, 25kHz, 31kHz (vector).  So for example, just launch a 15kHz game like gauntlet, center your screen using your arcade monitor controls, then launch a 25kHz game like 720 degrees, center your screen using your arcade monitor controls, then launch a 31kHz game like asteroids, center your screen using your arcade monitor controls.  If your video card is supported you should be all finished.  Perfect emulation!! Game on.

Forget about linux for the time being and just use Windows98SE.  XP is highly experimental, I'd avoid it.

If you want to run anything other than AdvanceMAME, it's proably in your interest to get either a Matrox G400 off of ebay, or find an original release, retail, buit by ATI, Radeon 7500 or 7500 All-inWonder.  You want to strictly avoid any revision models.  I don't know if there are any yet, but just be careful to avoid any if there are.

And as far as AdvanceMENU and AdvanceMAME goes, the whole thing is very user friendly to operate, it's just a little bit tricky to  setup.

I am currently working on a MAME modeline howto, which will not only cover AdvanceMAME but Windows MAME as well.  I'll be adding to it over the next few weeks, so hopefully, if you check back with it occasionally, it will help you understand what's going on in your setup.  Anyone who has a D9200, I'm sure will be pleased they purchased one, once they see what it can really do.  It really is a very unique / powerful monitor.

It looks like www.computers4sure.com has ATI Radeon 7500 AIW models in stock.  They go for about $133.

http://www.computers4sure.com/Product.asp?ProductID=482466&iid=936

[desmatic]

Frostillicus

Actually I believe there is some big differences/problems with advmame under xp - and some of the programming gurus around here can tell you specifics.  My beef is just that it doesn't emulate the keyboard led's at all in xp.

I haven't monkeyed around with XP lately, but if you, or someone you know got it to work, I'd be interested in hearing about it.  I don't have XP loaded onto anything currently, as I've pretty much changed everything over to Linux, but I'd install XP on a machine if I thought I could get AdvanceMAME to work on it.  I wouldn't mind documenting it, as many people seem to be interested in running XP these days.  Personally, I was never overly fond of XP.  2003 server kinda  sucks in my opinion as well.  In fact, it's the reason I got rid of XP and went straight Linux.

[squizz]

desmatic

 This all sounds great, except that i was leaning towards arcadevga card also with the d9200....
 ( so is this card a waste ? or can i still get perfect emulation still with it )

  Also i  wanted windows based too!
  now if xp isnt great with advancemame ( which i would also have to learn ) - ouch.
 
  but what about windows2000 ?
 alot seem to use this, anyone running win2000 and advancemame etc,
and how do you find this to be.

[Veto]

The keyboard LED issue affects Mame(w) and Mame32 as well in XP as far as I can tell.  

D9200 and Arcade VGA both arrived here yesterday.  Hooked 'em up, and have been playing around with Mame32 and it looks phenomenal.  There are clearly some limitations with the supported resolutions, and I will definitely look into advance mame and other video cards but let me tell ya, this is a pretty damn good setup the way it is right now.  The act labs light gun works like a charm as well.  Pricey setup but I'm glad I went with it so far.  I'll do a full review when I get some time.  My girlfriend wanted nothing to do with any of this until last night when she saw the gun hooked up.  She played Alien 3 for about two hours straight.  

[Frostillicus]

The keyboard LED issue affects Mame(w) and Mame32 as well in XP as far as I can tell.  

The LED's work for me in both the normal win32 version of mame and the Mame32 version.  I used pac-man as the test game.  The one that didn't work was advmame.  I use xp pro.

[desmatic]

Ignoring the leds, have you got AdvanceMAME to work on Windows XP.  

[desmatic]

desmatic

 This all sounds great, except that i was leaning towards arcadevga card also with the d9200....
 ( so is this card a waste ? or can i still get perfect emulation still with it )

  Also i  wanted windows based too!
  now if xp isnt great with advancemame ( which i would also have to learn ) - ouch.
 
  but what about windows2000 ?
 alot seem to use this, anyone running win2000 and advancemame etc,
and how do you find this to be.

As Veto points out, games look very good.  So I wouldn't call it a waste.  Think of ArcadeVGA as a user friendly AdvanceMAME setup.  Bascially you have very good emulation vs perfect emulation.  The setup you run, depends mostly on how picky you want to be, as both are great setups.

[Veto]

Sorry I forgot to mention it's a USB issue in XP for me.  My ps/2 keyboard LEDs work with windows mame & mame32, but my USB Ipac LEDs don't work.

[jekyll]

Looks like a lot of good information being brought on this thread!

Alright, so now you've brought up another question for me, desmatic. I looked at the reviews of the video cards on your site (great review, by the way!). Now when you say that the Trident doesn't look great with Windows Mame, what exactly do you mean? Is this an issue with Windows MAME only, or with all Windows emulators (i.e. ones for other gaming systems)? And is the difference with Windows Mame worth the slightly lower quality you describe with the G400 in AdvanceMAME?
Again, considering that I want a card that will allow the greatest flexibility - AdvanceMAME, Windows MAME, other game system emulators (Nesticle, etc) which run in Windows and/or DOS, which is the best card, realizing that this "best card" may not be the best in each category, but comes out on top overall?

As for the Windows 98se, I guess I could do it - sounds like XP is going to be a problem, and I'd rather start off with as few problems as possible. It pains me to think that I might have to pay for a copy of 98se off of Ebay if I can't find my old install disk lying around. Might have thrown it away thinking I'd never need it!

Veto - is the problem you're having lighting the LEDS using the LED driver board that was described here a few weeks back that hooks up to the IPAC? I've got the parts for that board, and am planning to light up a few buttons and maybe the trackball, so if that's the issue with XP, might be another reason to head towards 98se. Any idea about whether this problem is limited to XP only, or if it is also a problem in Windows 2000, as asked above? I tried doing a search for XP on the forums, but didn't get many hits back - either it hasn't been discussed much, or there's something up with my searching.

[Veto]

Yes i'm using the Ipac LED interface.  After I noticed the LED problem I asked Andy at Ultimarc if it was an Ipac problem and he figured out it isn't.  It's a Mame/ USB/ XP issue.  He reported it to the Mame team and believes it will be fixed in an upcoming version.  We'll have to wait and see if they do fix it.  Hopefully they will.  If you are using the Ipac with PS/2 in XP you sholdn't have the problem.  Like I said my regular keyboard LEDs work fine through PS/2.  Not sure about win 2000.

This is a fairly new discovery, Andy didn't know about it when I told him I was having the problem.  Probably not alot of Mame users on XP with USB keyboards/ cp's yet.  :-)

[desmatic]

Windows MAME uses hardware stretch to draw images. The T64 doesn't support this feature. This makes the T64 a particularly bad card for Windows MAME.  This is also why the G400 is a good card for Windows MAME, as it does support hardware stretching.

Not to mention, while 2D performance isn't anything to really go out and benchmark (as almost all cards offer the same level, respectively) the G400 is known for being a very fast 2d card.  Though, at most you'll see a frame difference, some people make a real big deal of it.  But basically, there is little to no difference in performance between cards in Windows MAME, if they support all the features that Windows MAME uses.  But in the days of yore, when 2D gaming was pretty intense, they used to actually benchmark 2D performance.  I haven't seen a 2D benchmark in about 2 years though, as most people could care less.

Some cards also use what is called bi-linear filtering (which basically smoothes rough edges).  As until, recently, MAME didn't support direct 3D so on some cards you could not turn this feature off easily.  Many said that the bilinear filtering made their games look blurry.  I wouldn't know, as ATI cards don't seem to have this problem, or at least I've never noticed it.  But I've heard compaints from Nvidia card owners in the past.  AFIK, the Matrox G400 doesn't support this feature, as this feature was pretty much ahead of its time, so again the G400 is a great card for Windows MAME.

While the T64 is a great video card, it's not exactly a 3D wonder boy.  So, if you want to run anything other than AdvanceMAME you should get the G400 or the ATI AIW 7500, use the link above.  You could try an ATI xpert 2000 pro from newegg.com.  I'm pretty sure it will work, but it's really a crap shoot with ATI cards, as they keep modifing the ---gosh-darn--- chipset  without telling anyone they've done it.  And a bastardized chipset won't work, or will give you problems.  This is why some say Rage 3D cards are great for AdvanceMAME, and why others curse them.  Matrox and Trident don't seem to modify their chipsets, and when they do they publish it.  This is why their cards, always work.  

I NEVER recommend ATI cards for strict 15kHz arcade monitors as interlace modes don't work on them correctly in AdvanceMAME.  This doesn't matter on the D9200, as you won't need any.

[desmatic]

There are now a few pics on my website.  My girlfriend took them, so you should thank her; otherwise, it would be just you and your imagination.  

Girls always seem to have cameras, don't they?

[squizz]

 So what will still give an arcade perfect picture ?
  arcadevga card and the d9200 ?

 and would you really need advancemame with it ?
as i have never used this before, and do not want to distroy the monitor....!

  atm i use  mamewah with mame and creat ini files for the games that need them.

[desmatic]

So what will still give an arcade perfect picture ?
  arcadevga card and the d9200 ?

Yes, but not on all modes.  Only on 240 line ones

and would you really need advancemame with it ?

You can run whatever you like, but only AdvanceMAME allows for perfect emulation.

as i have never used this before, and do not want to distroy the monitor....!

It's very easy to destroy a monitor with AdvanceMAME, so if you don't understand it, you should probably stay away from it.

[squizz]

and would you really need advancemame with it ?

You can run whatever you like, but only AdvanceMAME allows for perfect emulation.

as i have never used this before, and do not want to distroy the monitor....!

It's very easy to destroy a monitor with AdvanceMAME, so if you don't understand it, you should probably stay away from it.

well if advancemame destroys monitors easy , why do people use this program  then,
 also would'nt the d9200 have some safty device by now installed ?

  as i would like to get the most out of what i am going to buy.
 
 also what about this easycab you have on your web page thats for d9200's?
 that's got to be safe, and how close is that to arcade perfect emulation in settings already ?

  thanks

[desmatic]

well if advancemame destroys monitors easy , why do people use this program  then?

Because they know how to make it work.  If you don't understand how CRTs work, then you really shouldn't use AdvanceMAME.

also would'nt the d9200 have some safty device by now installed ?

Yes, it does, a very good one in fact.  But nothing is idiot proof.

 as i would like to get the most out of what i am going to buy.
 
 also what about this easycab you have on your web page thats for d9200's?
 that's got to be safe, and how close is that to arcade perfect emulation in settings already ?

Yes, it's perfect (read below).  Safe? I dunno.  The information published on Wellsgardner site is incorrect.  According to one of the monitor engineers that I spoke to at the company the D9200 has a 1-2kHz error margin at 15.75, 25, and 31.5.  This is what easycab configures the D9200 for, but with a 1kHz margin.  From the conversation I had with Wellsgardner, I'm under the impression that this is quite safe, but if you feel uncomfortable with it, don't use it.

The 1kHz margin allows you to perfectly emulate x224 - x256, and x384 modes.  x192 modes are double scaned with the correct Vsync.  

No games besides Darius require stretching or interlacing.  Which doesn't really matter as it's impossible to perfectly emulate Darius anyways, as it is supposed to use three monitors.

For the mathematically inclined,

 240 lines x 60 Hz = 14.4 kHz
-224 lines x 60 Hz = 13.4 kHz
-------------------------------------
x240 - x224 lines x 60Hz = 1kHz hclock range

easycab config for D9200
--------------------------------------
(0.900763 x 14.75kHz) / 60Hz = 221 lines
(0.900763 x 17.00kHz) / 60Hz = 256 lines

Basically I just configured 236 lines x 60Hz to run at 15.72kHz in the advcfg.exe utility.  This means that you can run any game between 224 lines and 256 lines at refresh rate of 50-60Hz.  Trying to get 192 lines would require a dangerous amount of overclocking / underclocking so it just runs at 384 lines (2 x 192 = 384) which means it's technically not perfect, but it's really damn close.  It would take a trained MAME junky to notice the difference.  Not too mention there aren't that many 192 games out there, so  who really cares.  The only two modes that matter are the x224 (most games) and x240 (many games).

When I get the time, I will explain how to perform all of these calculations in my tutorial.  And what they basically mean in terms of MAME emulation.

[AndyWarne]

It always seems that when I don't check this forum for a while, an interesting thread comes up!
Some good stuff here, but a few small clarifications:
Desmatic mentions Windows MAME uses hardware stretch. This is only if it is enabled of course. The ArcadeVGA card is great with MAME32 with H/W stretch disabled and the games running at their native resolutions.
With the D9200 utility the ArcadeVGA card can display almost any game without hardware stretch except the medium res modes (25Khz) which need H/W stretch but this generally does not degrade the image too much with a 25Khz mode (unlike the 15Khz which don't look good at all with H/W stretch)
I have never personally got any satisfactory picture using a TV with S-Video, although Desmatic seems to have done so and presumably has a good benchmark to compare (ie native 15Khz using Advanced MAME). Maybe this was an especially good TV.
I did configure 224 line modes into the ArcadeVGA originally but removed them as the result is identical to a 240 line mode, as Desmatic mentions. It just means that the monitor adds the borders rather than MAME. Unless you go out of specs for a normal monitor, these modes must have borders.
I did reply to someone that the D9200 was the best monitor but he has missed the rest of the email which I added "if cost is no option". I am not sure if the extra cost of a D9200 is justified unless playing a lot of normal Windows games as well as MAME. In this case, the ArcadeVGA D9200 utility does the business as it enables Windows games to be non-interlaced.

[desmatic]

I have never personally got any satisfactory picture using a TV with S-Video, although Desmatic seems to have done so and presumably has a good benchmark to compare (ie native 15Khz using Advanced MAME). Maybe this was an especially good TV.

Basically, I prefer the look of Windows MAME on a TV over a PC monitor, but that's just me.   Obviously I prefer the looks of AdvanceMAME on an arcade monitor.  But, of course, saying which one is better, Windows MAME on TV or AdvanceMAME on an arcade monitor, is like comparing a cheese burger to a porterhouse.  Not a very fair comparison, until you factor in $$$$$$$.

This whole topic got started by a discussion of Windows MAME on the D9200, which my point being, is absolutely identical to running Windows MAME on a TV with S-video, except for the refresh rate.  Both are stretching images to a fixed 640x480 screen.

I've never ever even been tempted to configure AdvanceMAME to run on a TV.  TVs, in my opinion, are just castrated, cheap arcade monitors.  They're too limited and messy to bother with, especially over here in the US.  Besides they're not much cheaper than arcade monitors over here, especially near chicago, where wellsgardner is.

I did configure 224 line modes into the ArcadeVGA originally but removed them as the result is identical to a 240 line mode, as Desmatic mentions. It just means that the monitor adds the borders rather than MAME.

I'm just curious, does it maintain aspect ratio.  I mean does it add the same size borders to the left and right?  I was just wondering, as I haven't seen it in action.

Unless you go out of specs for a normal monitor, these modes must have borders.

This is what I think most people don't quite fully understand.


Also, how hard would it be to add a native mode list for the D9200.  I'm sure you could find enough volunteers to calculate all the modes out, if you could just add them to the bios.

[AndyWarne]

The borders on the 224 line modes are equal, top and bottom. Both in actual 224 line mode or in 240 line mode running a 224 line game. There is no visible difference.

Yes I could add the D9200 modes. It's quite time consuming, each one of the modes took many days of tweaking and re-tweaking so that they always sit in the middle of the screen, so when switching modes you don't have to adjust the monitor. I would have to do this so that, for example, all the 25 Khz modes are centred, and all the 31 Khz modes. I would also need to get a D9200 which I could not fit into my workshop at the moment!
I would not want to add more than about 5 extra modes, this should cover the 25Khz games and 31Khz.
You might be surprised at how well all of the MAME resolutions fit the (well-chosen) modes of the ArcadeVGA. There are very few 15 Khz games which would benefit from any more modes being added.

[desmatic]

The borders on the 224 line modes are equal, top and bottom.

What about the right and left borders?

Yes I could add the D9200 modes. It's quite time consuming, each one of the modes took many days of tweaking and re-tweaking so that they always sit in the middle of the screen, so when switching modes you don't have to adjust the monitor.

In the next week or so (when I get the time) I'll publish a modeline calculator that should automate this task.

You might be surprised at how well all of the MAME resolutions fit the (well-chosen) modes of the ArcadeVGA. There are very few 15 Khz games which would benefit from any more modes being added.

Ya, I kinda figured this.  While I realize it may not be perfect, I figured it would be hard for most people to spot.  Hell, some of my closest friends have trouble seeing the things I point out.  I think I'm a little overly picky, perhaps.

[squizz]

Desmatic.
 
  Good to see picky people, if we wernt picky , there would be alot of rubbish sold around in our world.

  btw i'm a very picky person myself

and also would like to see all these things added to the arcadevga card for the d9200 monitor.

 We all want closest to perfect as we can get .


  eagerly awaiting andy's replys too.

[johnboygamer]

Wow there is alot of good info in this thread ! I'm a newbe also and have been plowing some of the same ground. I converted a cocktail cab to advmame, DOS, arcade mon, Blade and I used the JPAC to protect my arcade monitor while tweeking advmame.
I now want to build a stand-up that will have the ability to display arcade resolutions and utlize the soon to be released ACT TV dual light guns. I found a 30" NEC presentation monitor that is a 15-35KHZ multisync monitor and it has an s-video input. So I'm trying to put together a system that will run non light gun games at 15KHZ and be able to output shooter games to the tvout. I'm experimenting with an ATI 7500 and advmame. I may end up installing two ayatems in the cab, one advmame/Blade and the other mame32/ATI 7500 and use a monitor/keyboard switch.
Hope I wasn't too off topic

[jekyll]

Alright, so now that we've heard Andy's reply...

Sounds like the D9200 is still the way to go, but if it's now going to be possible to utilize the ArcadeVGA in all of these various modes, that may increase the utility of having the ArcadeVGA - seems like you get most of the benefits of the other cards in terms of accurately reproducing the original game appearance, but also have advantages in terms of running Windows, etc. Thoughts, desmatic, since you seem to know the most about this?

Also, any more description of this mode calculator you're working on? Definitely sounds interesting.

[desmatic]

Sounds like the D9200 is still the way to go, but if it's now going to be possible to utilize the ArcadeVGA in all of these various modes, that may increase the utility of having the ArcadeVGA - seems like you get most of the benefits of the other cards in terms of accurately reproducing the original game appearance, but also have advantages in terms of running Windows, etc. Thoughts, desmatic, since you seem to know the most about this?

Ya, basically, the ArcadeVGA gives you a great versatile setup, that's very easy to get up and running.  The only disadvantage to it, is that it was designed for strick 15.7kHz monitors, not the D9200, so it is making a few comprimises that don't have to be made.

Also, any more description of this mode calculator you're working on? Definitely sounds interesting.

I've pretty much got it done, though my calculator occasionally rounds the modeline differerently than AdvanceMAME, so I'll have to sort out exactly how AdvanceMAME is rounding its numbers before it will officially be ready.  Then, of course, I'll have to learn PHP so that I can program the calculator into my website.  

So the time margin, basically, depends on how clever I can be or how hard PHP programing is -- we'll see.  I imagine it won't be long, though.

[tom61]

Wow there is alot of good info in this thread ! I'm a newbe also and have been plowing some of the same ground. I converted a cocktail cab to advmame, DOS, arcade mon, Blade and I used the JPAC to protect my arcade monitor while tweeking advmame.
I now want to build a stand-up that will have the ability to display arcade resolutions and utlize the soon to be released ACT TV dual light guns. I found a 30" NEC presentation monitor that is a 15-35KHZ multisync monitor and it has an s-video input. So I'm trying to put together a system that will run non light gun games at 15KHZ and be able to output shooter games to the tvout. I'm experimenting with an ATI 7500 and advmame. I may end up installing two ayatems in the cab, one advmame/Blade and the other mame32/ATI 7500 and use a monitor/keyboard switch.
Hope I wasn't too off topic

Why not get the arcadeVGA and have the best of all worlds? Since you monitor takes up to 35kHz, you can use the D9200 utility to run windows at 640x480 (I think 35Khz can also give you 800x600 at 60Hz vert. to) uninterlaced.

I didn't think about using the TV based guns, but that would work for the ArcadeVGA's TV-out (yes, the ArcadeVGA has TV-out). Hmm... gives me an option for guns on my cabinet too, since I have a NTSC to RGB decoder board.

[desmatic]

I updated EasyCab. Version .67.0.2 is now available for download.  

The device_video_format that easycab uses for the D9200 is now a little more Windows friendly.  After about an hour of math and tinkering, I've got the screen centered as close as is humanly possible.  Windows is only slightly overscanned now, and all games look perfect.  I also added a few AdvanceMAME parameters for Radeon 7500 setups on the D9200.

Wow there is alot of good info in this thread ! I'm a newbe also and have been plowing some of the same ground. I converted a cocktail cab to advmame, DOS, arcade mon, Blade and I used the JPAC to protect my arcade monitor while tweeking advmame.
I now want to build a stand-up that will have the ability to display arcade resolutions and utlize the soon to be released ACT TV dual light guns. I found a 30" NEC presentation monitor that is a 15-35KHZ multisync monitor and it has an s-video input. So I'm trying to put together a system that will run non light gun games at 15KHZ and be able to output shooter games to the tvout. I'm experimenting with an ATI 7500 and advmame.
Hope I wasn't too off topic

I would really love to hear how well the NEC monitor works out for you.  It sounds very interesting, particularly, if it supports the entire range 15-35kHz, though I'm somewhat suspicious that it won't.  If it did, though, it would be a very groovy monitor, indeed.  Keep me updated.  

I may end up installing two ayatems in the cab, one advmame/Blade and the other mame32/ATI 7500 and use a monitor/keyboard switch.

There is no need for two different video cards.  ATI's Radeon 7500 should work perfectly with AdvanceMAME on your monitor, as you don't need any interlace modes.