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Author Topic: Any suggestions for an easy, incremental file backup application?  (Read 2969 times)

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Sizzler

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Any suggestions for an easy, incremental file backup application?
« on: September 14, 2007, 06:54:28 pm »
For years I've either: (a) lost files due to hard drive crashes or (b) manually backed up email and documents by burning them to DVD

My backup 'system' is no system at all, except that every once in a while I decide I should back stuff up, and then I manually copy a whole bunch of folders and files into a DVD project and burn it.   I really need a better way to do this.  I'd like a backup system which only backed-up 'new' or 'changed' files (so I'm not backing up the exact same files over and over) and does it regularly and or more systematically and efficiently.

I have hard drives lying around as well as external enclosures, but I think I'd rather just back up to DVD although it seems like backing up to DVD would mean that the process wasn't happening in the background like it could with a hard drive.

Any suggestions that are relatively easy, don't require me to set up a linux backup server or anything like that, and might do what I want?   I lose hard drives every year or so to some kind of failure and know this is something I should be doing, I just don't know the best or easiest way to do it.
Thanks

ahofle

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Re: Any suggestions for an easy, incremental file backup application?
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2007, 07:22:21 pm »
Norton Ghost seems to work pretty well.  I have it setup at work to create a 'base' backup once a week or so, and then incremental backups for changes nightly.  It's probably best to backup to an extra harddrive rather than DVD though.  Maybe you could benefit from this killer deal in another thread for your backups:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=71317.0

patrickl

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Re: Any suggestions for an easy, incremental file backup application?
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2007, 07:51:42 pm »
To automatically protect against harddrive failure a RAID system works great. The simplest would be mirroring. If either drive breaks the other still holds all your data. Works in the background and it works all the time. My file server is an Infrant ReadyNAS with 4 disks. that works even better than mirroring, but it's seriously expensive.

Then there is the backup against accidental file deletes or bad changes. For this I use rdiff on FreeBSD (nightly cron job). This makes daily backups of all changed files. Depends a bit on how much I change, but so far I have been able to have it backup enough so that I can roll back changes for a month. I can go back to every version of a file I had over the last month. Haven't been able to get this to work in a Windows environment though.

You should really also make proper backups to prevent against total loss (like fire and theft and such). I use removable harddisks for that.

Actually this ties in with the first backup solution. I have a built in drive unit that takes two disks, but to the PC it acts as one disk. They are mirrored so both are identical. They are also hot swappable so I just swap out a disk now and then and move it off-site and in the safe. It's a bit pricey, but I like the comfort it provides. Deonet backup

When I feel like it I also will make backups on DVD, but DVDs just don't take enough data to make a proper backup. So this is never automated.
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Re: Any suggestions for an easy, incremental file backup application?
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2007, 05:59:23 am »
Basically if you want incremental backups you need the software to hunt down and find out which files have been changed. Which is a task which is not complicated but fiddly. If you don't want to do a full *NIX install then install something like Cygwin or some other sub-distribution of Cygwin that just installs the basic tools without all the extra gnu/linux software.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/unxutils
http://www.cygwin.com/

Since the Windows environment by default discourages people from this kind of 'quick n dirty' scripting I can't say I've ever come across any reasonable toolkit for Windows that wasn't either expensive, just a port of the tools from *NIX, or some vaguely dubious add-on from MS designed to push you over to .Net or whatever their latest gimmick is.

Once you have a decent shell and the base *NIX tools installed you can either download or knock out differently sized nightly/weekly/monthly snapshot backup scripts in under a couple of hours. If that kind of stuff is all voodoo to you, then you're better off just buying whatever Norton (or similar) sells to do that instead.  :dunno
« Last Edit: September 15, 2007, 06:06:31 am by jbox »
Done. SLATFATF.

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Re: Any suggestions for an easy, incremental file backup application?
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2007, 08:06:04 am »
Syncback works well and there is a free edition if you want to try it out.


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Re: Any suggestions for an easy, incremental file backup application?
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2007, 08:59:19 pm »
Why not just use the Windows backup utility?

Or, most external USB drives these days it seems come with backup software too.

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Re: Any suggestions for an easy, incremental file backup application?
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2007, 10:57:12 pm »
I have a consumer RAID 5 NAS (network-attached storage) box made by Buffalo called the Terastation.  It came with incremental backup software called Memeo.  I don't think it does full backup of the entire drive, including OS and programs.  It's specifically for user data like things that would typically go in your My Documents folder (documents, MP3s, photos, videos, etc.).  It does incremental backup practically in real time.  It takes a snapshot (full backup) of the folders and files you specify, and then it watches them.  Every time you make changes to files or add fails to a folder, it updates the backup.  You can tell it how many versions of a file to keep.  So, for example, say you've set Memeo to keep up to 20 versions of files in your My Documents folder.  If you're working on a Word Document and clicking the save button every five minutes, and it takes you an hour to finish the document, Memeo will let you roll back to any one of the 12 versions of your document you made during throughout the hour.  So it's incremental backup, but it's ALWAYS watching.  With that said, its footprint seems entirely negligible.  When I was running it, I could not detect the slightest hint of slowdown.  It doesn't seem to use any significant amount of system resources.  However, I didn't get the Terastation for backup.  I got it to be a media server, so I haven't really used Memeo enough to say how well it works in the long run.  I checked it out to satisfy curiosity, but I haven't really used it much.

If you aren't averse to spending a little money, in fact, you might just buy a Buffalo Terastation.  When I got it, they came in 1 terabyte and 2 terabyte flavors.  Not sure what they're selling these days.  There's no cheaper way to get into RAID 5 unless you are an IT professional and want to put together a linux affair and happen to have a bunch of unused hardware laying around.  The Terastation is easy enough for anybody to use.  It gives you hardware RAID 5, which means that your data is distributed across multiple disks, which increases performance, but if any one of the disks fails, you just replace that one disk and the RAID array will be rebuilt with all of your data in tact.  You would have to have two drives die simultaneously to actually lose data.  And, as I already mentioned, it comes with the Memeo backup software which takes care of all the incremental backups for you. 

By the way, to hijack the thread a little, these Terastations are fantastic media servers.  They are basically tiny little Linux boxes.  It's got native SMB or Active Directory capabilities.  Ever since I got the thing I haven't had to leave my PC running all the time.  My xbox just pulls media straight from the Terastation.  But plug the thing into a UPS.  They don't handle brownouts well.  If the thing doesn't shut down properly it re-checks the integrity of the array the next time it's turned on which takes about six hours.  Streaming media from it during the check doesn't work well -- it's kinda stuttery.  But a UPS solves the problem -- especially if you get an APC Smart UPS because then you can run a serial cable between the two devices and the UPS will shut the Terastation down gracefully in case the power goes out.
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Re: Any suggestions for an easy, incremental file backup application?
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2007, 11:03:27 pm »
Buy.com had a refurb 2T Terastation for about $500 a month or so ago.  It might still be in there if they haven't sold out.  I almost bought one, but I don't need that much extra space (already have a 2T linux box that is HUGE and power hungry).

patrickl

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Re: Any suggestions for an easy, incremental file backup application?
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2007, 04:35:40 am »
I didn't get the Terastation because it was reported to be very slow. That's probably fine for a mediaserver, but for a fileserver I didn't want that. IRC it generally gets poor user ratings too. Maybe they improved though.

Memeo autobackup looks nice yes. An alternative is Memeo AutoSync. That makes a more straightforward backup. With $10 off now only $19
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Re: Any suggestions for an easy, incremental file backup application?
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2007, 06:39:35 am »
Check out Microsoft's free SyncToy program.  While it is only a mirroring program, it does multiple direction file changes and you can Schedule the sync to run at a given time.  I started using it at home and I've started using it at work for various things.

IIRC, it reads XP and above, however I have successfully run it on Win2KSP4 with no issues.

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Re: Any suggestions for an easy, incremental file backup application?
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2007, 08:03:44 am »
I use Cobian Backup to back up all of our family photos to off-site ftp nightly.  It does incrementals, I believe.  And it's free  :)

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Re: Any suggestions for an easy, incremental file backup application?
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2007, 08:05:04 am »
A DOS batch job(s) with Xcopy commands that is scheduled to run in the middle of the night works great for me.  Backs up the important, changed files to an external drive.  Super simple, super cheap.

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Re: Any suggestions for an easy, incremental file backup application?
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2007, 08:36:00 am »
Bought a 2tb terastation recently. All the talk of it being almost impossible to lose your data etc sold me on it. Paid $1100 btw. Within a couple weeks I was able to add about 500 gigs of data to this thing including DVD backups, home video files and photos. Out of nowhere it is impossible to connect to the terastation. A few e-mails to T.S. determines that the terastation itself needs to be replaced and that in order to swap out drives I would need to front them $1400 msrp for the hardware during an exchange and would be refunded when they received my broken unit. I don't have $1400 and cannot access the 500gig of files.

The thing was awesome when it was working, but now it is nothing more than an $1100 cement block sitting on my desk.
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Re: Any suggestions for an easy, incremental file backup application?
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2007, 09:33:12 am »
Regarding the Terastation:

My biggest question is now noisy is it?

My last NAS (el-cheapo POS) died and now I'm stuck backing up data computer to computer. I use SyncBack, BTW.

There was another NAS from Infrant (now they've been bought out by Netgear) called the ReadyNAS, but that one is supposed to be very noisy.

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Re: Any suggestions for an easy, incremental file backup application?
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2007, 09:36:04 am »
I use Cobian Backup to back up all of our family photos to off-site ftp nightly.  It does incrementals, I believe.  And it's free  :)

I just write it all out to DVD about once a month, the whole set of photos, two copies each time.  Movies/mp3 I don't really care much about, certainly not enough to spend $700 to back up $500 worth of DVDs and CDs.  The family stuff, though, we don't have hundreds of gigs of stuff, so DVDs are just fine for us and have a lower failure rate than any hard drive.

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Re: Any suggestions for an easy, incremental file backup application?
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2007, 01:29:59 pm »
There was another NAS from Infrant (now they've been bought out by Netgear) called the ReadyNAS, but that one is supposed to be very noisy.
I have the ReadyNAS. It's very fast, but you can hear it yes. Although I read that the new model is more quiet.

It depends on what you compare it to though. It makes a lot less noise than a computer. I guess if you want it in your livingroom as a media server then it might be an issue, but as a fileserver it's inaudible compared to all the other stuff there.

BTW I was afraid of my NAS breaking down too, but I saw that the ReadyNAS basically uses Linux softraid (with some specialized hardware to speed things up) So that means the disks will be readable in a Linux box. Maybe the Terastation uses the same? Or something else that makes the disks readable in another machine. Be very careful though since you don't want to break the stripe set.
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patrickl

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Re: Any suggestions for an easy, incremental file backup application?
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2007, 01:34:50 pm »
I just write it all out to DVD about once a month, the whole set of photos, two copies each time.  Movies/mp3 I don't really care much about, certainly not enough to spend $700 to back up $500 worth of DVDs and CDs.  The family stuff, though, we don't have hundreds of gigs of stuff, so DVDs are just fine for us and have a lower failure rate than any hard drive.
Sizzler wanted to get away from that and asked for something automated. An extra harddisk is $50 to $100.

Trouble with DVDs is that you cannot back everything up (or at least not without a lot of effort). I have 60GB of pictures.
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shmokes

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Re: Any suggestions for an easy, incremental file backup application?
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2007, 01:50:40 pm »
The Terastation is quiet.  Mine is sitting in my entertainment center under the TV with all the other components and I can't hear it.  But I suppose this is going to be a function of what hard drives they choose to populate it with to a large degree.  Mine has Seagate drives in it, and Seagate is known for silent drives, but Buffalo very likely uses different drives in different production runs depending on supply/cost issues.  So if you end up with one using Maxtor or WD or Hitachi drives, who knows?
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Re: Any suggestions for an easy, incremental file backup application?
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2007, 03:19:06 pm »
I use hardware RAID5 running on 2 linux fileservers for my storage, but for system backups, I really really like Acronis True Image....I use it to make bare-metal backups of my HTPC's (for quick redeployment in case of a drive failure) and for my primary workstation.....

not free, but definately worth the $$$

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Re: Any suggestions for an easy, incremental file backup application?
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2007, 10:26:12 am »
I did some research on various NASes and I found six options that fit my own needs (2 terabytes, raid 5)

All prices from newegg.

1) Buffalo Terastation - $885 without drives
2) Build your own - $variable depending on parts, but you need a motherboard or NIC that can do gigabit ethernet plus a motherboard or card that can do raid 5, software also varies in cost depending on if you buy windows or use linux. I believe time costs are substantial here because I don't know of any plug and play NAS software for linux.
3) Netgear ReadyNAS NV+ $849 without drives
4) Synology CS407e - $529 without drives. This one does not have the LCD display that the Terastation and the ReadyNAS do, nor is it hot-swappable.
5) Thecus NS5200BR - $680 without drives.
6) VisionMan  VisionVault $1134 plus shipping, includes drives, direct from visionman.com.

All of these have their pluses and minuses. I really want to add my own drives (Samsung Spinpoint HD501L, they run cool and quiet, give adequate performance, and are not that pricey).
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Re: Any suggestions for an easy, incremental file backup application?
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2007, 11:35:34 am »
I did some research on various NASes and I found six options that fit my own needs (2 terabytes, raid 5)
I just researched this myself, but for an ESATA SAN rather than a NAS setup.

Thecus came highly recommended and seemed to have fairly good user marks on boards around the 'net, and, as some have found, Buffalo was mixed. I almost went with a Terrastation until my wife saw the price tag...

You might want to check Addonics and Sans Digital as options for both prebuilt boxes and DIY cages; they were both tops on my list. If you like the Sans Digital line, go for an off-brand of the same units like 3Gen and save some cash.

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Re: Any suggestions for an easy, incremental file backup application?
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2007, 01:32:38 pm »
I found the 2TB Terastation I mentioned earlier.  It's $600 now but it seems to go on sale once in a while closer to $500.

Putting together a Linux box is pretty darn cheap, and not too hard to do.  I did all the work myself using Slackware, but there are some distributions out there that will take care of it for you.  Someone I work with is using one of them.  I'll find out what he uses next time I see him.   The main drawback of a PC-based system as opposed to a NAS box is it's big, ugly, and power-hungry.

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Re: Any suggestions for an easy, incremental file backup application?
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2007, 01:37:54 pm »
I wouldn't go for a BYO NAS box anymore. I tried that for years, but it never really worked nice. It sounds cheap to just put a cheap PC to use, but old PCs are usually not capable of running 24/7 (I had some hardware failures over the years). PC's are powerhungry too (it actually costs a lot of money to run a PC al the time). They are often slower than a dedicated NAS and it can be troublesome to configure. I had so many problems with it that I decided to spent the money on the ReadyNAS.

It's actually not that difficult to setup up a NAS with Linux or something, but I always had weird configuration problems or hardware problems. There are products like FreeNAS too, but still.

I suffered a disk failure on my homemade NAS box and I couldn't get it to work again. Couldn't figure out which disk was broken and in the end nothing worked anymore. I actually had to restore a backup! I had troubles with the RAID card not being supported in newer kernel versions anymore. Settings kept going wrong, computers couldn't connect now and then. I would run an update of the OS and the whole thing would stop working (basic Linux misery I guess). Every time there was something wrong and I'd be fiddling with configuration files Linux kernel builds, boot disk and what not for hours again.

A factory made NAS just works so much easier. I suffered a disk failure with the ReadyNAS. It shows which disk is faulty. I simply replaced the disk and things went fine again. I decided to increase storage, one by one swapped out  the disks for a bigger model and presto a bigger NAS.

The ReadyNAS sends e-mails when something goes wrong. Or is about to go wrong (with SMART errors) I kinda like that too. It even sends an e-mail when it gets too hot or when a fan fails.

The Thecus looks like a very fast machine. Even faster than the ReadyNAS. Cool. I see some complaints about the firmware though. In fact that was what kept me from getting a Thecus a few years ago. Lots of complaints about support back then too. I'd hope that they improved that.

I wasn't very impressed with the ReadyNAS support either. I asked them a question when my disk broke down and after two weeks I received an answer. I managed to fix the problem myself, but still.

If you want to use the Terastation as a file server then make sure you buy a model with good performance. That Terastation Pro is fast, but he home evrsions are so slow it would not be usable for that. Mediaserver would be fine. IIR it got something like 5000kB/s
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Re: Any suggestions for an easy, incremental file backup application?
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2007, 02:16:22 pm »
I found the 2TB Terastation I mentioned earlier.  It's $600 now but it seems to go on sale once in a while closer to $500.


That's an incredible value at $600. I would be all over it if there were any in stock. I'm usually wary about "reconditioned" drives, but that's what Raid 5 is all about, right?

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Re: Any suggestions for an easy, incremental file backup application?
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2007, 03:27:16 pm »
I found the 2TB Terastation I mentioned earlier.  It's $600 now but it seems to go on sale once in a while closer to $500.


That's an incredible value at $600. I would be all over it if there were any in stock. I'm usually wary about "reconditioned" drives, but that's what Raid 5 is all about, right?



All 8x250GB drives in my server were WD refurbs, and they've been running over 2 years without a failure.  Your mileage may vary.