The guy who caught 756 owes the IRS $200k or more

[ChadTower]

How stupid is this?  The guy catches a baseball and immediately owes the gov't over two hundred thousand dollars.  That just ain't right.  The guy couldn't keep it even if he wanted to.  What if some kid had caught it?  Would the gov't be demanding that much money from an 8 year old?

[shardian]

I read that and it is total ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---. As far as the government is concerned, if he kept it, it's value should be the cost of the ball or ~$20. He should only be charged taxes if and when he sells it. This is dangerous territory IMO. Lets say I have a Mickey Mantle card that was handed down to me from my dad. If I had an article done on my collection and and IRS saw that, they could come and tax me based on fair market value if they wanted, even though the card has been and always will be in my families possesion. (hypothetical, I only wish I had a Mickey mantle rookie card)

[ChadTower]

Heh.  I have a '57 Mantle but that's about as close to a Mantle rookie as I'll ever get.

[shmokes]

Link doesn't work for me, but that's ridiculous.  It makes no sense.  Like Shardian said, it's value should be the cost of the ball unless he sells it, and then it should be treated like income or capital gains or whatever. 

[Jouster]

What are you all bitchin about??  Uncle Sam deserves that money...like he does all tax money.  It's his right!!

I'd have though yall knew that already.  I mean we gotta pay for dumba...er...helpful social programs that don't work.

Jouster

[Chris G]

Maybe he can deduct his ticket price and medical expenses as costs of acquisition.

[billf]

And his Mets jersey.

[polaris]

I read that and it is total ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---. As far as the government is concerned, if he kept it, it's value should be the cost of the ball or ~$20. He should only be charged taxes if and when he sells it. This is dangerous territory IMO. Lets say I have a Mickey Mantle card that was handed down to me from my dad. If I had an article done on my collection and and IRS saw that, they could come and tax me based on fair market value if they wanted, even though the card has been and always will be in my families possesion. (hypothetical, I only wish I had a Mickey mantle rookie card)

in the uk we have inheritance tax and you would be taxed on that card if it were in a will particularly, there is a massive con performed by the wealthy to avoid it though and most get away with it.

[billf]

I read that and it is total ---smurf-poop---. As far as the government is concerned, if he kept it, it's value should be the cost of the ball or ~$20. He should only be charged taxes if and when he sells it. This is dangerous territory IMO. Lets say I have a Mickey Mantle card that was handed down to me from my dad. If I had an article done on my collection and and IRS saw that, they could come and tax me based on fair market value if they wanted, even though the card has been and always will be in my families possesion. (hypothetical, I only wish I had a Mickey mantle rookie card)

in the uk we have inheritance tax and you would be taxed on that card if it were in a will particularly, there is a massive con performed by the wealthy to avoid it though and most get away with it.

So what is the con?

[FrizzleFried]

That's got to be wrong...because you are all right...it is NOT income until such a time that he sells it.  It is simply a $20 baseball.

[ChadTower]

It is income, as they define income, because it is now an asset that can be used for things like collateral or can be sold for money, traded for goods, etc.

Income is not just money.  It is anything of value that can be leveraged financially.

[boykster]

same way as if you win a car in a raffle, you are now liable for the tax on the gain - the gain being the value of the car. Sure you "paid" for your ticket, but the difference in value between the car and the ticket you bought ($1 or whatever) represents a gain.

The gray area here is not whether or not the ball represents income, but how that income should be appraised.  I would find it awfully hypocritical if the IRS taxes him on an estimated valuation of the ball (prior to an actual hard sale) when they require charitable donations to be written off (cars boats etc) at a valuation representing ACTUAL SALE price....

[polaris]

I read that and it is total ---smurf-poop---. As far as the government is concerned, if he kept it, it's value should be the cost of the ball or ~$20. He should only be charged taxes if and when he sells it. This is dangerous territory IMO. Lets say I have a Mickey Mantle card that was handed down to me from my dad. If I had an article done on my collection and and IRS saw that, they could come and tax me based on fair market value if they wanted, even though the card has been and always will be in my families possesion. (hypothetical, I only wish I had a Mickey mantle rookie card)

in the uk we have inheritance tax and you would be taxed on that card if it were in a will particularly, there is a massive con performed by the wealthy to avoid it though and most get away with it.

So what is the con?

you put them on a list stating they are available for public viewing when theyre usually just in peoples houses. by putting them on the list you dont pay the tax but they must be available to view ,its a con really as no one knows theyre available to look at, they should really be in museums but its a loophole thing.
a comedian mark thomas did a program about it and by annoying one guy so much by taking busloads of people in furry animal outfits to see all his pieces on the list, the guy eventually got pissed off having to sort out his art for public viewing and he just paid the tax, an estimated £400,000, it was very funny.

[ChadTower]

Geez, that's a good way for the rich dude to decide it's easier to pay someone half that to kill you.

[polaris]

Geez, that's a good way for the rich dude to decide it's easier to pay someone half that to kill you.

he is a conservative mp( which made it even sweeter) im sure the cash was a drop in the ocean to him but as bent as im sure he is , we dont quite have the mafia options here, the british way will be do get a dossier built up on him by mi5 to prove hes subversive and a threat, which i guarantee has been done to mark thomas, he knows how to annoy the right people.

[ChadTower]

You don't need a mafia connection to have someone killed when you can drop two hundred grand, I would imagine.  Lots and lots of people would kill someone for that.

[polaris]

i dont think really the guy would have known who was behind it or that an individual was behind it , he would have just been getting requests from various people to see his artwork, and it meant letting buses full into his private house or getting the art moved to a museum each time.

[hypernova]

What I've never understood about these things is the fact that this isn't the record now.  He's already at 757.  Sure, this particular ball surpassed the old record, but in the end (and as I mentioned, already,) it's still just a number between the old record and the newer, final number when he ends up retiring.

Shouldn't his last HR ball be worth the most?  That ball becomes the new milestone.

I wonder...will Aaron's ball that surpassed Ruth's now depreciate?  Which is worth more?  The one that passed Ruth, or his 755th?

[ChadTower]

Who said this ball is worth the most?  All we said is that it's worth a lot.

[patrickl]

Would someone actually pay $600,000  for that ball?

[Jouster]

Some idiot out there would.

Jouster

[tommy]

This makes me want to puke all over our great American flag. Damn greedy government making everything that is fun and enjoyable, not so enjoyable anymore. They are so quick to stick their hand out in a situation like this it just makes me sick.

[ChadTower]

The end result being that only someone very wealthy can have that ball.  Doesn't matter who caught it, only someone rich can have it, because the average guy can't pay the income tax on it.

That's pretty much how a lot of things are working now.

[danny_galaga]

Geez, that's a good way for the rich dude to decide it's easier to pay someone half that to kill you.

this is in the UK, not the US 

[shardian]

If I was him, I just wouldn't let an appraiser see it until it's time to sell. I figure that it has to be officially appraised for the government to actually collect...of course, I know nothing about tax law so who knows.
Here ya go though:

Let me tell you how it will be
There's one for you, nineteen for me
'cause I'm the taxman,
yeah, I'm the taxman

Should five percent appear too small
Be thankful I don't take it all
'cause I'm the taxman,
yeah, I'm the taxman

If you drive a car, I'll tax the street
If you try to sit, I'll tax your seat
If you get too cold, I'll tax the heat
If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet
Taxman

'Cause I'm the taxman,
Yeah, I'm the taxman

Don't ask me what I want it for (ha ha Mr. Wilson)
If you don't want to pay some more (ha ha Mr. Heath)
'cause I'm the taxman,
yeah, I'm the taxman

Now my advice for those who die
Declare the pennies on your eyes
'cause I'm the taxman,
yeah, I'm the taxman
And you're working for no one but me

[Malenko]

I spoke to my CPA cousin, they cant tax him the value of the ball if he doesn't sell it and she has no idea where the guy in the story got the idea the IRS could. As for the capital gains tax, well that doesn't apply either, he didn't purchase the ball then later resell it for more. Lastly, where are you guys seeing baseballs for $20 ?!!? Wal*mart has them for $7.99

[shardian]

Lastly, where are you guys seeing baseballs for $20 ?!!? Wal*mart has them for $7.99

A professional ball costs more. You can probably buy the same type of ball that the pro's use for around $20/ball.
In college, my roomate paid $100 for a super fancy basketball at the local specialty store...and actually, it was that nice of a ball.

[ChadTower]

I spoke to my CPA cousin, they cant tax him the value of the ball if he doesn't sell it and she has no idea where the guy in the story got the idea the IRS could. As for the capital gains tax, well that doesn't apply either, he didn't purchase the ball then later resell it for more.

"It's an expensive catch," said John Barrie, a veteran tax lawyer with Bryan Cave LLP in New York who grew up watching the Giants play at Candlestick Park. "Once he took possession of the ball and it was his ball, it was income to him based on its value as of yesterday,"

Even if he does not sell the ball, Murphy would still owe the taxes based on a reasonable estimate of its value, according to Barrie. Capital gains taxes also could be levied in the future as the ball gains value, he said.

[Malenko]

I spoke to my CPA cousin, they cant tax him the value of the ball if he doesn't sell it and she has no idea where the guy in the story got the idea the IRS could. As for the capital gains tax, well that doesn't apply either, he didn't purchase the ball then later resell it for more.

"It's an expensive catch," said John Barrie, a veteran tax lawyer with Bryan Cave LLP in New York who grew up watching the Giants play at Candlestick Park. "Once he took possession of the ball and it was his ball, it was income to him based on its value as of yesterday,"

Even if he does not sell the ball, Murphy would still owe the taxes based on a reasonable estimate of its value, according to Barrie. Capital gains taxes also could be levied in the future as the ball gains value, he said.

yeah I got all that, but the IRS cant tax him until there is an actual sale of the ball, I mean we all know hes going to sell it but until he takes the money he isnt responsible for a tax on it.  Also, the capital gains tax only applies to whomever buys the ball, if they resell it for more later.

My cousin raised the BS flag on catching the ball is income, because its not, selling the ball is the income.

[Samstag]

My cousin raised the BS flag on catching the ball is income, because its not, selling the ball is the income.

Your cousin would be wrong on that.  Acquiring an item that has a large material value is income.  Ask anyone who's ever won a car.

What's in question is whether an item can have a large material value based entirely on the opinion of "experts" and never proven in a market situation.

[ChadTower]

There is precedent for similar balls they could use to set an expected sale price, though, and they'd likely use that.

[shardian]

My cousin raised the BS flag on catching the ball is income, because its not, selling the ball is the income.

Your cousin would be wrong on that.  Acquiring an item that has a large material value is income.  Ask anyone who's ever won a car.

What's in question is whether an item can have a large material value based entirely on the opinion of "experts" and never proven in a market situation.

I can understand paying a tax on a car you win, or a house you win. They have physical value. This is just a $20 ball a guy caught in the stands. Technically it is worth $20. This is dangerous territory for the fed if they can start taxing you on what "people think" something is worth.

[ChadTower]

I can understand paying a tax on a car you win, or a house you win. They have physical value. This is just a $20 ball a guy caught in the stands. Technically it is worth $20. This is dangerous territory for the fed if they can start taxing you on what "people think" something is worth.

Maybe, maybe not.  Anything that isn't new with a known MSRP is worth what "people think".

[Jouster]

Simple solution...sell it to his wife or friend for a dollar...then buy it back for $2...now the ball has a value.

Jouster

[ChadTower]

What is really comes down to is that the IRS cannot be fought.  They will decide what they want to recieve and he will be obligated to pay that amount.  He can fight the IRS in court but that will cost him 5 figures on top of whatever the judgement ends up being (which will be high).  If he doesn't pay, they'll seize most of what he owns and put him in jail.  Tax evaders in this country are penalized worse than rapists and child abusers.  You can kill someone driving drunk and get less jail time than if you cheated on your taxes.

[shardian]

Simple solution...sell it to his wife or friend for a dollar...then buy it back for $2...now the ball has a value.

Jouster

I would recommend the same, but it just don't work that way, and for obvious reasons. If you are even given a car, you still have to pay taxes on it, which is fine because the car has an obvious value.
Since we are on cars, here is an interesting situation. Lets say for instance that you own a car that Elvis pressley drove. You would pay property tax on that car based on the make,model, and year. You would not pay extra property tax because Elvis owned and drove it, even though a collector would pay you well above market value for the car. Now when and if you sold the car for above and beyond market value, you would pay capital gains tax.
That is more like the situation we have here: The ball has a set value compared to other balls. It has a worth of $20 or so regardless of who hit it. Now if the guy sells the ball to an idiot willing to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars, then he would pay the gains tax on that.

And to top it off, that baseball doesn't even fall into a category you have to report on personal property forms.

I am fortunate though regardless of how the IRS takes this because my 1987 Topps Barry Bonds rookie card still new in box is still work jack crap.

[ChadTower]

You would pay additional taxes on that car if you wanted to get additional insurance to cover the collectable value of it.  To get the insurance you'd have to get it professionally appraised, and that appraisal would trigger additional taxes if the DMV were notified  (sometimes they are, sometimes they are not).

[MikeQ]

Depends on the state.  In Florida, you pay taxes on the amount listed on the bill of sale,  not any appraised value.  I was given a car in college, presented a bill of sale to the DMV for $0.0 and paid no taxes.

[ChadTower]

Right, but that's an average car, not one with collectable value above blue book.

And usually those $0 or $1 sales are specific exceptions for passing a car to family member... in MA, you used to be able to sell a car for $1 with no taxes to a relative.  Can't do that anymore, though.

[shardian]

Right, but that's an average car, not one with collectable value above blue book.

And usually those $0 or $1 sales are specific exceptions for passing a car to family member... in MA, you used to be able to sell a car for $1 with no taxes to a relative.  Can't do that anymore, though.

Yeah, we were given a car and I found out the hard way that you still pay sales tax even when its free.