What do you think on picture quality with a d9200 and other monitors

[squizz]

Hello


   i'm really leaning towards a wg d9200 monitor, but would like to know abit more before i choose to do this purchase.

running a game like mortal kombat or nbajam - if you placed an original nbajam and mame running nbajam , would you be able to tell what cabinet is running the original pcb board ?

What i'm after is for my next cabinet to get an arcade PERFECT picture where you cannot tell the original from mame.
  so with this is mind would the  wg-d9200 give the picture perfect what im looking for , or will the picture be to sharp etc.

   Thanks

[desmatic]

If you set it up correctly, all games except for  x192 resolutions will be identical to the originals (hclock, vclock, scanline, etc.).

[squizz]

 Okey but would i need a WG-D9200 or would a standard 15khz arcade monitor produce a perfect arcade picture better than the wg-d9200?
     
   

[desmatic]

This is a bigger question than you might think.  The answer won't be short and I'll do my best to avoid as much technical jargon as possible.

Inorder to emulate every MAME game perfectly, your monitor must be able to support the following

x192 at 15kHz (a handful of games)
x224 at 15kHz (almost all games)
x240 at 15kHz (several games)
x384 at 25kHz (a handful of games)
x480 at 31kHz (vector games)

Most 15kHz arcade monitors were designed to display 224 lines at 15kHz.  Newer ones, however, go up 240  lines at 15kHz.  This means that most arcade monitors can perfectly emulate one of these two modes.  Inorder to emulate both, you need to overclock / underclock your monitor.  You basically need a 1kHz horizontal range, so for example, you could use 15kHz at 224 lines and 16kHz at 240 lines.  This setup would enable you to run 90%-95% of all games perfectly (thats just a guess, but it should be pretty close).

Since the D9200 supports 384 lines at 25kHz, it is capable of perfectly emulating a few of more games than a regular arcade monitor.  If you double the pixels for the handful of x192 modes, you end up with 384 modes running at the correct vsync as well.  So, basically, depending on how you want to define perfect emulation the D9200 can also very accurately emulate x192 modes.

The last remaining vector mode, 480 lines at 31kHz, is also support by the D9200.  

So basically, if you overclock / underclock a D9200 you can emulate every MAME game perfectly.  If you overclock / underclock an ordinary arcade monitor you can still emulate 90%-95% of all games, which ain't that bad, if you ask me.  

Wow, that was a lot shorter than I thought it would be.  Anyways, I hope it helps.

[Frostillicus]

This is a bigger question than you might think.  The answer won't be short and I'll do my best to avoid as much technical jargon as possible.

Inorder to emulate every MAME game perfectly, your monitor must be able to support the following

x192 at 15kHz (a handful of games)
x224 at 15kHz (almost all games)
x240 at 15kHz (several games)
x384 at 25kHz (a handful of games)
x480 at 31kHz (vector games)

Most 15kHz arcade monitors were designed to display 224 lines at 15kHz.  Newer ones, however, go up 240  lines at 15kHz.  This means that most arcade monitors can perfectly emulate one of these two modes.  Inorder to emulate both, you need to overclock / underclock your monitor.  You basically need a 1kHz horizontal range, so for example, you could use 15kHz at 224 lines and 16kHz at 240 lines.  This setup would enable you to run 90%-95% of all games perfectly (thats just a guess, but it should be pretty close).

Since the D9200 supports 384 lines at 25kHz, it is capable of perfectly emulating a few of more games than a regular arcade monitor.  If you double the pixels for the handful of x192 modes, you end up with 384 modes running at the correct vsync as well.  So, basically, depending on how you want to define perfect emulation the D9200 can also very accurately emulate x192 modes.

The last remaining vector mode, 480 lines at 31kHz, is also support by the D9200.  

So basically, if you overclock / underclock a D9200 you can emulate every MAME game perfectly.  If you overclock / underclock an ordinary arcade monitor you can still emulate 90%-95% of all games, which ain't that bad, if you ask me.  

Wow, that was a lot shorter than I thought it would be.  Anyways, I hope it helps.

Vector games need an XY monitor to be displayed correctly...they won't look too spectacular on anything other than a real vector monitor or a PC monitor, which just looks 'ok'.

[desmatic]

Well, I can't  say I really disagree with you, but x480 at 31kHz is about as good as it gets in MAME.  It's too bad too, because vector cabinets are really rare these days, and even if you are lucky enough to find one, the monitors are all burned in from age.  I don't think there is much interest in perfect emuation for vector games though, so I think the memories will just have to survive and not be relived for some time to come.

[Frostillicus]

Well, I can't  say I really disagree with you, but x480 at 31kHz is about as good as it gets in MAME.  It's too bad too, because vector cabinets are really rare these days, and even if you are lucky enough to find one, the monitors are all burned in from age.  I don't think there is much interest in perfect emuation for vector games though, so I think the memories will just have to survive and not be relived for some time to come.

Actually, some people are trying to bring vector games back:  http://www.zektor.com.  There's also laser mame, so the interest is definitely there.  The closest people can get to vector games these days (without actually using an XY monitor) is to hike the resolution of a PC monitor up to around 1280x1024, I'm sorry to say but asteroids looks pretty bad at anything less.

edit: The funny thing about that company is that they haven't implemented the sega g-08 games yet, like eliminator and ironically, zektor.  

[squizz]

So basically, if you overclock / underclock a D9200 you can emulate every MAME game perfectly.  If you overclock / underclock an ordinary arcade monitor you can still emulate 90%-95% of all games

            Okey now another question please.

  how do you clock and overclock an arcade monitor ?

  and second, which monitor will still look to be the most releastice ( prefect ) picture ?
   a- the standard 15khz monitor ?
or b - the wg-d9200 15khz - 31khz ?  ( or will this one be too crisp for the standard games )

  Thanks

[Frostillicus]

squizz - overclocking/underclocking means forcing a vertical rate of 14.5 instead of 15khz, which isn't the safest thing in the world.  
As far as authentic picture quality - how many of those games back then actually ran on a 27" screen?  Of course it's not going to look perfectly identical to the original game's 19".   I think it looks pretty good though, much better than a TV or PC monitor.
 

[squizz]

squizz - overclocking/underclocking means forcing a vertical rate of 14.5 instead of 15khz, which isn't the safest thing in the world.  
As far as authentic picture quality - how many of those games back then actually ran on a 27" screen?  Of course it's not going to look perfectly identical to the original game's 19".   I think it looks pretty good though, much better than a TV or PC monitor.
 

  Well i was compairing to street fighter 2 world warriors, or mk1,2,3 even nbajam.
  these should be great to compair.
 
  as for horizontal and vertial games, i know its not going to be accurate unless you rotate the screen....
 
 but i was after  an answer as to which monitor would be the most accurate !
 side by side mame and original.
  either standard 15khz monitor , or a wg-d9200 ( but wasnt sure if this monitor would product too much of a crisp image , and loose its original look )

[desmatic]

The D9200 will perfectly emulate every game, if your willing to ignore image size.   Otherwise perfect emulation can only be achieved on a good old school 19" standard res monitor.  If you aren't interested in overclocking / underclocking you'd need two of them, one configured for x224 lines at 15kHz and another configured at x240 lines at 15kHz.  If you include vertical games this comes to 4 monitors.  Then, of course, if you want x384 lines at 25kHz, your talking about another one, which you could also use to play vector games satisfactorily.  So all in all, your really looking at about 5-7 cabinets depending on how you want to break it down and how anal you want to be about it all.  Can't say I wouldn't mind having my own arcade room, and I'd certainly be jealous of anyone that did, but the D9200 is a fairly decent comprimise.

BTW, not all vertical games run horizontally will have the correct vsync on the D9200, even though they will have the correct resolution, aspect ratio, and size (about 19")

[desmatic]

Feel silly replying to my own post, but I figured I might as well add this -- my dream MAME room.

Classic 19" CGA Tabletop (probably a wellsgardner 7200 or 7300) (my current project)
27"  D9200 (horizontal) 4 player cab (what I currently got)
27"  D9200 (vertical) 2 player cab for vertical fighter games
27"  D9200 (horizontal) flight / driving Cab (dreamy, but $$$expensive$$$)
27"  D9200 (horizontal) 2 player joystick mounted gun cabinet  (this is when you're just spoiled)

It would take a proper room just to house them all, but if perfect emulation is what you want, boy the above setup would be hard to beat.  It gets me all warm and fuzzy inside just thinking about it.

[squizz]

Okey Desmatic.
 
       So you are saying that the Wg-D9200 is the only way to get an arcade perfect image ?

  Or would a standard 15khz monitor get a the arcade  perfect image?
 
   they both cannot display an image the same as one or another.
  i would have thought that the wg-d9200 would be more crisp in the image as to a standard monitor running the streetfighters and mk games.   ( but i might be wrong )  

   being that this is going to be my last cabinet that i'm going to build,
 i really would like it to be right the first time ( this time )..


   thanks

   
 

[desmatic]

By crispness I assume you mean the dot pitch.  The D9200 has a fairly high dot pitch, .81 which is typical of older arcade monitors.  Most newer CGA monitors are around .7.  So as far as crispness, the D9200 is certainly not very high.  And if you run games on the D9200 at the correct resolution, images only differ from traditiational CGA monitors in size.  The D9200 is simply a big monitor.

But as far as perfect emulation goes, obviously nothing will ever beat a 19" CGA monitor.  You will just need a couple of them to emulate every game perfectly.  The D9200 is therefore the comprimise, it's only fault is that it's too big.  Otherwise it is capable of emulating every game perfectly, which is what makes it special.  

If you only intend on putting one cabinet together, I highly recommend getting a D9200.

If want to get really picky, the D9200 uses a more modern RGB layout (as do most modern CRTs).  Older CRTs used triad shadow masks.  You'd really have to be arcade guru to notice the difference though.

[squizz]

Thanks very much for your time and patience Desmatic.  
 
    i really appreciate this, as the wg-d9200 isnt the cheapest thing to buy in australia ( around 1500 dollars ) so didnt want to spend this sort of cash just for a blow in the dark project.
 
  this is why i was saying that i wanted it to be right  the first time round
 
 

[Frostillicus]

   i really appreciate this, as the wg-d9200 isnt the cheapest thing to buy in australia ( around 1500 dollars ) so didnt want to spend this sort of cash just for a blow in the dark project.
 

good lord - $1500? is that USdollars?  I guess shipping is a little crazy....

[Birdtales]

Even if it's AUD that's 943.00 US. Wow!

[squizz]

thats aud
  yes we get taxed, taxed,g.s.t, taxed lol

 

[desmatic]

Holly molly, $$$ 1,500 $$$ is insane.  Given that price, I can totally understand your hesitation.  Maybe you could find a local importer that gets them shipped in bulk or something.  Anyways, glad I could help.