Holy Crap!!! Time to Buy a 360!

[Howard_Casto]

Just got done with the m$ press conference, and man, even a stick in the mudd like me can get excited with some of that stuff. 

First the bad:

M$ fudged their numbers on the slideshow.  Notice they made a lot of charts based on toal number of dollars spent.  Well of course m$ is going to win that one because nobody buys ps3 stuff and the wii stuff (both hardware and software titles) are a lot cheaper.  Also they mention that the 360 is the only console to have third party titles in the top ten.  That's because they don't have any good 1st party games.  If you look at the actual charts nearly all the top 5 games are wii or ds games, but they don't count those because they are first party games... pretty clever eh?  So the gist of it is that m$ wanted you to think they were the top gaming company of the year, but in actuality they came in second.  It'd be nice if they just admitted that.

Also gta4 and halo 3 didn't impress me at all.  I'm sure some people were slobering over it, but to me, they looked (not just visually, but gameplay wise) very last gen.

Halo 3 360 console... it's flat green and does nothing special, enough said.

Enough with that though, on to the good:

Cod4...... Holy frikkin crap!  It makes last year's killzone level look like dog turds, and it actually looks fun!  I can't stress this enough, I HATE cod games, so when I say I'm excited to play this you need to understand the gravity of just how good it looks (not just the near photo-realistic graphics, but how the gameplay is setup).  Expect this to be the sleeper hit of the holiday season.

Assasin's Creed.... This game looks very average visually, but the ai and the gameplay is amazing.  Think prince of persia but with a sand-box-like city to play in a-la-gta and ai enemies that aren't dumb as dirt, not to mention a whole city of ai-controlled people to interact with.  This is my personal fav. 

GH3, RockBand, ect.... These are all multi platform games so nothing terribly exciting, except that they are on the 360 as well, so you won't be left out. 

Lots of new hd movies... always good.

They are finally getting xblive arcade games that have been on the wii for months, good for them.

Resident Evil 5... OH MY GOD  Resident Evil 5!!  Just a 30 second clip mind you, but it looked incredible, easily the best looking game ever!  Now all they have to do is keep the near perfect re4 control scheme and it'll be a console-seller. 


I've waited two years, but this year I have to get a 360.  That should tell you just how good it looks for m$, when the guy that's been holding out for 2 years is ready to fork over his 400 bucks.

[ChadTower]

I really need to play through the RE series.  I'm a bit ashamed to say I've never played any of them more than a few minutes into the first one.

[Malenko]

I just upgraded to an Elite, if you wanna pick up a perfectly working 360 premium with VGA cable, component cable, wired controller, wireless controller , battery recharge pack and cord, power cord, head set, and 20 GB HD for 275 + shipping lemme know

[Howard_Casto]

I really need to play through the RE series.  I'm a bit ashamed to say I've never played any of them more than a few minutes into the first one.

To be honest, you haven't missed anything.  All the resident evils except for 4 have been total and complete crap due to bad camera angles and poor controls.  Re4 on the other hand, might possibly be the best game of all time to date.  If you want to get caught up on the story, then I suggest the equally impressive looking re umbrella chonricles coming out for the wii... the same games but with better controls and visuals.

[ChadTower]

I don't have any current gen systems.  I can pick up RE4, though.

[SirPoonga]

Chad, you should watch ebay for a red lights 360 then have Microsoft fix it for free.  I hear that is working well for people.  Though you have to make sure the seal is in tact before you get it off ebay.  However, with the recent warranty update the red light system jumped from an average $80 to $150 on ebay.

[drmlvr]

Re4 on the other hand, might possibly be the best game of all time to date.

I second that.  I have always hated the resident evil games....but RE4 is something else.  As for RE5 I think this is going to knock out Halo3.  (and yes I am both a Halo and a fps fan)

[ahofle]

If I get RE4 having never played the previous 3, will I still be able to enjoy it? 

[shmokes]

Nonsense.  The entire series has been at least good, usually great.  The first game, while in many ways a rip-off of the much lesser known PC game Alone in the Dark, was genre defining.  It was a wonderful game and it's only problem is that it is showing its age (a problem largely solved by picking up the Gamecube remake with entirely updated graphics).  Resident Evil 2 was an utter masterpiece.  Howard has never even played it because he was so turned off by RE1.  By the time RE3 came out the series and graphics engine were in desperate need of an overhaul (prerendered backgrounds were out, 3D was in), but it was still a totally standup game.  Not brilliant, but perfectly serviceable).  Resident Evil 4, of course, provided said overhaul and all is well in the world of Resident Evil.  Play all of them (including the excellent Code Veronica on Dreamcast) if you want the whole back story and you won't be disappointed.  They're good games.  Or, skip them and you'll be fine.  Plenty of info is given to enjoy the game without having played the earlier entries in the series.

[shardian]

Resident Evil 2 was an utter masterpiece.

Seconded! I played it straight thru in right under 6 hours (no memory card) the first time I ever played it. The poor playstation was overheating. Since then, me and the wife have beat both quests for both characters.
RE3 was good, but not the awesomeness 2 was.

And yes, you can play RE4 without having played any of the past games. The story line is really only tied to RE2 by 2 characters - but not in an integral way.

[ChadTower]

Yeah, I think I have them all except RE4, but haven't played them.  I started RE1 a while back but I dislike the PS1 controller so much that I ended up not sticking with the game.

Ironically, I do really like the original PS1 controller for use on the Vectrex.  Works really well there.

[SNAAKE]

If I get RE4 having never played the previous 3, will I still be able to enjoy it? 

yes because resident games doesnt really "follow" the previous games..doesnt really matter which you play first. especially 4 because it has nothing to do with the previous titles. Id recommend ALL RE..overall great games(well..you can skip crap like gun survivor and dead aim).

[DarkBubble]

I've always loved RE.  The first one was the worst about control and camera angles, but I still enjoyed the hell out of it.  RE2 is still one of the best.  I couldn't get into 3 very much, but it hit around the same time Code Veronica did.

When it comes down to it, RE2 and RE3 are sequels to RE1/DC, rather than RE3 being an actual sequel to RE2.  Code Veronica is the direct sequel to RE2.

I haven't gotten to play any of the later games yet.  When I get a Wii, I'm tracking down Zero, Remake, and 4.

[slycrel]

For those of you who may care, Marathon 2 will be released on XBLA sometime later this year.

I played that to death back in the day, the storyline is really great.

[Buddabing]

IMO COD is a terrific game (on PC anyway) It's the most immersive FPS I've played.

[Howard_Casto]

Nonsense.  The entire series has been at least good, usually great. 

Nonsense!  The entire series, while having a compelling enough storyline and visuals has been plagued with gameplay issues since the first game.  I will give that they were playable and if you bought it the story was good enough that you might suffer through it enough to find out what happens, but they weren't very good.  I'll admit that re2 was a decent game, probably good by some people's standards.  The rest were crap though.

Re4 on the other hand is easily the best selling re of all time and one of the top sellers on the gamecube.  Judging by the sales numbers, most people agree with me in that the other games were average at best while re4 was amazing.

[drmlvr]

If I get RE4 having never played the previous 3, will I still be able to enjoy it? 

yes you will.  Try this on for size.  (one of first "little" bosses, and my favorite, in the game  )

[shmokes]

Judging by the sales numbers, most people agree with me in that the other games were average at best while re4 was amazing.

Well, for one thing I find the claim that RE4 is the best selling RE ever a little bit dubious, though I agree that it is hands-down the best RE game ever made.  But this last line is just nutso.  Average at best?  I think you sometimes let your zeal run away with you.  The RE franchise is a huge blockbuster franchise.  The first RE sold well enough to spawn three official sequels, code veronica and a couple of shooter spinoffs, not to mention the remakes of the earlier games on the Gamecube.  Oh yeah . . . and two fairly big-budget feature films that came out before RE4.  Are. You. ---smurfing---. Crazy?  You think the early RE games sold "average at best"?

I think a much more accurate statement, given that RE4 really is the highest selling RE ever (which I'm still not convinced of), would be: Judging by the sales numbers, most people agree with shmokes in that the other games were amazing while RE4 was even amazinger.

[DarkBubble]

Given how many ports and re-releases there have been, I've got a feeling that the actual sales figures amount to more than just a warm reception.

[Zero_Hour]

Sales figures for RE:

http://vgchartz.com/worldtotals.php?name=resident+evil&console=&publisher=&sort=Total

Doesn't include RE4 totals for Wii, and so I'm sure there are other ports/platforms not represented, but I always like to throw some numbers up in these discussions. I'm not an expert on the series - played RE2 on the PS2, and enjoyed it immensely. Judging by the numbers, seems a whole bunch of people agreed.  Will definitely pick up 4 for the Wii.

[pointdablame]

Judging by the sales numbers, most people agree with me in that the other games were average at best while re4 was amazing.

Do you even PRETEND to research things before you come on here and spout your nonsense while simultaneously saying that everyone on the planet besides you is wrong??

 

[ChadTower]

He doesn't fake it... he thinks about faking.  I don't know where I am.  I can't breathe.

[shardian]

Hehe, HowardC Pwned again.

[Malacus]

I didnt read all the replies, I just had to comment about the Resident Evil series. Im not going to come out here and say "BUY ALL RE!!11!!! IT R GRET!!! CAPCOM OWNZ UR SOLZ!!!"

But the RE Series is an amazing play, and one great thing about it is that it doesnt REALLY matter which order you play them in. I NEVER had a problem with the camera angles, Its not really that hard to control the characters as long as you 'get' the control scheme. In the earlier games, up is not up on the screen, its forward for your character, is it really that hard to figure out? And likewise, down is back, left turns left and right turns right.

I didnt care much for RE3, I dont know why, I wont say I hate it, or it was bad, I just think its my least favorite of the main series. But you should maybe avoid the Survivor games and the Gaiden game on GameBoyColor 

I even really liked the Outbreak games, not really a story to them, but theyre fun to play, too bad theres no LAN option that I know of.

I guess, in other words, if you want to know if the earlier games are good, find the cheapest of the games, play/beat it and if you like it, grab the rest of the series.

The Alone in the Dark series was great too, not really something I can go back and play today (Ive got a copy of all four of them) But I am excited to see theyre making another one, the New Nightmare was pretty good, the movie was one of the worst things ever.

-mal

ps. Buy all of the Resident Evil games. They are great. Capcom owns your soul.

[Howard_Casto]

Judging by the sales numbers, most people agree with me in that the other games were average at best while re4 was amazing.

Do you even PRETEND to research things before you come on here and spout your nonsense while simultaneously saying that everyone on the planet besides you is wrong??

 

I didn't do any reasarch, it's a commonly known fact.  All I can tell you is the site you found is in error. 

[AtomSmasher]

Judging by the sales numbers, most people agree with me in that the other games were average at best while re4 was amazing.

Do you even PRETEND to research things before you come on here and spout your nonsense while simultaneously saying that everyone on the planet besides you is wrong??

 

I didn't do any reasarch, it's a commonly known fact.  All I can tell you is the site you found is in error. 

 

[shardian]

I didn't do any reasarch, it's a commonly known fact.  All I can tell you is the site you found is in error. 

From Wikipedia:

According to January 17, 2007 sales figures provided by Capcom, the GameCube version of Resident Evil 4 has sold a total of 1.6 million units worldwide, and the PS2 has sold over 2 million units.[6]

Resident Evil 2 received positive reviews from most publications. Resident Evil 2 was a commercial success and has sold 5.82 million copies worldwide since its release, making it the best selling game in the series.[citation needed]

[Zero_Hour]

Judging by the sales numbers, most people agree with me in that the other games were average at best while re4 was amazing.

Do you even PRETEND to research things before you come on here and spout your nonsense while simultaneously saying that everyone on the planet besides you is wrong??

 

I didn't do any reasarch, it's a commonly known fact.  All I can tell you is the site you found is in error. 

Find a source for your commonly known facts Howard, it really is annoying when you pontificate like this. If my source is in error, please show me one to counter it, instead of simply stating it is wrong. I actually found several that were in line with the one I posted (and not the Wiki Links Sharidan posted, though those seem to agree all the other charts I looked at too), so I posted it.

* Edit: Apparently even Capcom is unaware of this commonly Known Fact:
http://ir.capcom.co.jp/english/data/million.html
Listing of Million Selling Titels by platform.

All I can tell you is, you are in error.

[ChadTower]

Find a source for your commonly known facts Howard, it really is annoying when you defecate like this.

fixt

[Howard_Casto]

Yeah resident evil 4 sold really well and also got really good reviews.  As did resident evil 2, the rest didn't. Also, those figures posted were indeed invalid, the wikipedia entry you just quaoted as well as various other sources, including capcom themselves post much higher sales for re4, so I wasn't wrong in thinking it was a great seller, nor was I wrong in thinking it sold better than the others (With an exception or two naturally), nor was I wrong in that thinking that chart was a little iffy.  Your point?  I brought up the fact that some people liked re2, it doesn't mean I do, nor does it mean I would reccomend soemone going out and playing that busted 10 year old game.  Can any of your honestly say you would, because if you'd get back on topic, that was the question that was actually asked/implied.

I'm sure you guys are having fun picking on me, but this is a thread about e3 and as usual schmokes butted in where he didn't belong and brought the conversation way into left field just because he had a different opinion about something I said in passing.  He didn't say soemthing like:  "I dunno I liked them" or "Resident Evil 2 was really good" He said:  "Nonsense" as my opinion was completely and utterly invalid.  Then because I defend myself you guys accuse me of doing the exact same thing he just did.  If you guys don't like me or can't get along with me fine, but for the love of god let me make a post without having to get in these idiotic off-topic arguments where you try to pick every single thing I say in passing apart!

I wanted to talk about e3 and the 360, that's why I started the thread.  I would love to hear opinons on e3 and the 360, but nothing else.

[pointdablame]

Judging by the sales numbers, most people agree with me in that the other games were average at best while re4 was amazing.

Do you even PRETEND to research things before you come on here and spout your nonsense while simultaneously saying that everyone on the planet besides you is wrong??

 

I didn't do any reasarch, it's a commonly known fact.  All I can tell you is the site you found is in error. 

I didn't find the site.  I don't need a site.  Unlike you, my "commonly known facts" are backed up by MOST PEOPLE.  That's how I know it's a commonly known fact.  That site, Wiki, Gamespot, 1Up, any game mag I've ever read.... they all list Resident Evil as both an overal good to great game series... and they all list them as having sold a LOT of games.

You don't gather that much attention, sequels, movies, et al unless you are popular.  Even if the games weren't "good" (which I think they are), they have definitely sold a lot of copies.

You make less than zero sense.  "commonly known fact"      Known by who??  Give me a break Howard.

[shardian]

Yeah resident evil 4 sold really well and also got really good reviews.  As did resident evil 2, the rest didn't. Also, those figures posted were indeed invalid, the wikipedia entry you just quaoted as well as various other sources, including capcom themselves post much higher sales for re4, so I wasn't wrong in thinking it was a great seller, nor was I wrong in thinking it sold better than the others (With an exception or two naturally), nor was I wrong in that thinking that chart was a little iffy.  Your point?  I brought up the fact that some people liked re2, it doesn't mean I do, nor does it mean I would reccomend soemone going out and playing that busted 10 year old game.  Can any of your honestly say you would, because if you'd get back on topic, that was the question that was actually asked/implied.

I'm sure you guys are having fun picking on me, but this is a thread about e3 and as usual schmokes butted in where he didn't belong and brought the conversation way into left field just because he had a different opinion about something I said in passing.  He didn't say soemthing like:  "I dunno I liked them" or "Resident Evil 2 was really good" He said:  "Nonsense" as my opinion was completely and utterly invalid.  Then because I defend myself you guys accuse me of doing the exact same thing he just did.  If you guys don't like me or can't get along with me fine, but for the love of god let me make a post without having to get in these idiotic off-topic arguments where you try to pick every single thing I say in passing apart!

I wanted to talk about e3 and the 360, that's why I started the thread.  I would love to hear opinons on e3 and the 360, but nothing else.

The reason people jump all over you occasionally is NOT because your comment is wrong, it is because in being wrong, you are a pompous, condescending ass WHILE being wrong.

[DarkBubble]

http://www.the-magicbox.com/topten2.htm

These are just the Japanese sales figures for the first 3 on PS (in millions):

Bio Hazard (all versions)     1.30
Bio Hazard 2 (all versions)     2.30
Bio Hazard 3 ~ Last Escape     1.55

According to Capcom Japan, total sales figures for the entire Resident evil series as of April 21, 2007 were at 31,000 units, a unit being 1,000.  This figure includes the series as a whole, including Survivor, Gaiden, and other spin-off titles.

Source:  http://ir.capcom.co.jp/english/data/salesdata.html

The original Resident Evil couldn't have sold poorly.  You had the original version, Director's Cut (which again sold well), and the Greatest Hits version of Director's Cut with added Dual Shock support.  You don't do that with a game that only sells marginally well, even if you're Capcom.

[Zero_Hour]

I wanted to talk about e3 and the 360, that's why I started the thread.  I would love to hear opinons on e3 and the 360, but nothing else.

Fair enough Howard, and I actually don't enjoy "picking" on you, I just really hate people who claim "Fact" and can't bother to offer any sort of citation. (FYI Capcom lists the exact same sales numbers for RE4 as the Wiki entry  )

My thoughts on E3 -

Overall the coverage seemed a whole lot more sedate, which you would kind of expect, given the lack of an open to the public component. I still need to follow up on a lot of articles, and postings, but I can't say there was any single thing that bowled me over (at least not yet, I'm sure there is still a lot of material I haven't had the time to look at yet. Too many trailers, and not enough gameplay footage (yet), but that is to be expected

As far as offerings from the Big 3?

MS - They didn't announce price drops or their new chipset, which are really the two things that will probably get me to buy one, but the overall library seems to be going in a good direction. The Halo Themed 360 was a complete non-starter for me. Not a huge Halo Fan, and Not really into "modded" consoles either, but whatever.

SONY - Games. I want Games. Games I can't play on another system that compel me to buy a PS3. I'm sure Metal Gear will do it for some, and Killzone2 for others, but I still haven't seen my PS3 killer app.

Nintendo - Since I already own a Wii this was what captured most of my immediate attention. Zapper is interesting, Wii Fit will most likely be enjoyed by my Wife,. Metroid Prime will probably be the first game I buy for a console on release day. Wii Wheel is pretty unexciting, but I'm a big MarioKart64 fan, and will almost certainly pic up the new version for the Wii.

So there you have it, my initial thoughts on the E3 coverage I've seen thus far, I'll probably get a chance to sift through more this weekend.

[ChadTower]

A luigi's mansion sequel will go a long way toward my buying a wii.

[shardian]

The Wii fit looks like it may be interesting.
I got Yourself Fitness for PS2, but it just didn't do it for me or the wife. It made you jump too much - me and the wife both had severlely bruised calves for a few days after doing the fitness test.

I am thinking Santa may be bringing us a Wii for Christmas.

[ChadTower]

Bruised calves?  What, was it Muay Thai or something?

[shardian]

Bruised calves?  What, was it Muay Thai or something?

In the fit test, you have to do jumping jacks at various paces for like 10 minutes straight. WTF were they thinking???

[ChadTower]

That maybe you should get fit?

[shardian]

That maybe you should get fit?

Dude, I will send you the game, then laugh at you when you can't climb stairs for 2 days.

[ChadTower]

Ha.  I'm in good condition.  I'm overweight but still in pretty good cardiovascular shape, probably a hard month out of football shape.

[Tahnok]

Wow, I really hope they announce a version of RE5 for the Wii (so I don't have to buy another console this generation). It looks absolutely amazing.

If I wanted to go back and play RE1 through RE3, which systems should I buy each game for?

[somunny]

SONY - Games. I want Games. Games I can't play on another system that compel me to buy a PS3. I'm sure Metal Gear will do it for some, and Killzone2 for others, but I still haven't seen my PS3 killer app.

Well there isn't much on the PS3 that blows my skirt up but Uncharted: Drake's Fortune was impressive enough for me to buy a console for.

[SNAAKE]

actually that wiifit does look kinda cool. it might actually work for women as they dont really do much at the gym anyway. they can just just exercise at home. BUT this is not a gym replacement for guys..no way 

Wow, I really hope they announce a version of RE5 for the Wii (so I don't have to buy another console this generation). It looks absolutely amazing.

If I wanted to go back and play RE1 through RE3, which systems should I buy each game for?

re0,re1 remake,2,3 were originally released for the gamecube and also work for the wii. these are budget titles too..you can get em for $20 each brand new.

[Malacus]

dont forget Code Veronica though, also available on gamecube, ps2 and dreamcast.

I think If I were going out and buying them, Id get 2, 3 and Code Veronica on Dreamcast, if I could find them, I dont really know the differences between the different console versions, but I know that the VMU Screen displaying your health and maybe your ammo (its been a long time) is a nice feature, and the DC controller (one of my least favorite along with the 64 and Jaguar) doesn't hinder playability.

-mal

[DarkBubble]

I think If I were going out and buying them, Id get 2, 3 and Code Veronica on Dreamcast, if I could find them, I dont really know the differences between the different console versions, but I know that the VMU Screen displaying your health and maybe your ammo (its been a long time) is a nice feature, and the DC controller (one of my least favorite along with the 64 and Jaguar) doesn't hinder playability.

The PS2 and GC versions are Code Veronica X (Code Veronica Complete in Japan, which did get a Japanese Dreamcast release).  It's the same game, but with around nine minutes of additional cutscenes.

If the stock DC pad is bugging you (I thought it was far too narrow and I hated the d-pad), hunt down a Mad Catz Dreampad on eBay.  Best DC pad there is.  Wide, two extra buttons on the face that replicate the triggers in digital form, and an excellent d-pad for fighting and action games.

re0,re1 remake,2,3 were originally released for the gamecube and also work for the wii. these are budget titles too..you can get em for $20 each brand new.

I thought that 2 and 3 received low print runs.  If new copies can still be found for $20, I'm going to have to track them down if we get the Wii.

[Tahnok]

Thank you. I'm not sure when I'll have time to pick them up, but I really want to play the entire series.

[hulkster]

meh!  back to the e3 talk!  quit this babble about res evil figures.

im a huge nintendo fan, but i have to say that MS took this e3 with their awesome showing of games.  i mean, im stoked about metroid and mario galaxy and smash bros, but the 360 has so many things going for it.

bioshock
cod4
halo 3
assassins creed
res evil 5
rock band
the orange box (half life 2 box with other games in it for 60 bucks)

and uh...a bunch of other games.  not all of these are must haves for me per se, but they are definitely worth my looking into.  ill be getting for sure halo 3, rock band, and the orange box.  res evil 5 is next year so im not counting that.  cod4 looks really really good....although ill have halo 3 first and that will take my attention as far as fps games go. 

and lets not forget the ds game, zelda!  im ready for that as well.  all in all....my wallet is starting to cry with all the awesome games coming out this year. 

[ChadTower]

Sheesh.  I think my free time bank would cry before my financial one would.

[boykster]

Sheesh.  I think my free time bank would cry before my financial one would.

yeah, where would you find time to squeeze a couple of video games once NFL seasons starts?  you've got what, 30 hours of games to watch a week? 

[ChadTower]

And I have to constantly fight with pretty much everyone but my wife about it.  Everyone in my family always wants me to go help with this, bring this there, etc etc... so in order to get that sunday time, I have to argue every week from thursday on about it.  Outside of the football season everyone seems to think I am required to "make up for it" and I have very little spare time as a result.  Even went so far as to get two DirecTivos so I could get in viewing whenever the time was available rather than just plunking in front of the TV for 15 hours a week.

[TheOtherBob]

Its not really that hard to control the characters as long as you 'get' the control scheme. In the earlier games, up is not up on the screen, its forward for your character, is it really that hard to figure out? And likewise, down is back, left turns left and right turns right.

Ok, so I was one who really hated the control scheme in the first one.  Which has affected my desire to try the others.  Did they at least give us "control challenged" players a different control scheme in the later releases?  If so, at what point did they do that so I can start from there?  Thanks!! 

[boykster]

And I have to constantly fight with pretty much everyone but my wife about it.  Everyone in my family always wants me to go help with this, bring this there, etc etc... so in order to get that sunday time, I have to argue every week from thursday on about it.  Outside of the football season everyone seems to think I am required to "make up for it" and I have very little spare time as a result.  Even went so far as to get two DirecTivos so I could get in viewing whenever the time was available rather than just plunking in front of the TV for 15 hours a week.

Trust me, I'm just bustin your balls.  Heck, its a struggle just to convice my wife that I have to watch ONE nfl game a week 

And when I play my xbox360, it's not for just 20 or 30 minutes, it's Gears of War on Xbox LIVE, and a 'short' session would be at least an hour, generally more like at least 2 if not more....

[ChadTower]

I'm right there with you.  My wife actually doesn't mind and she'll watch the Patriots games with us (me and sons).  It's everyone outside the house that seems to think it's a problem and making demands.  Usually people who spent 6 hours a day drinking and watching TV year round.