Joust problem

[lordbah]

I have an ancient Joust arcade game which hasn't been functional for several years. I replaced the batteries and the fuse - though I couldn't find an exact match, it looks like a slow-blow 125V, and the kid at Radio Shack said he thought it was 3 amps, they didn't have that nor did Auto Zone or Home Depot, I ended up using a 2 amp one. Anyway the video comes up scrambled. The LED, which in past has pointed out bad RAM chips by flashing 3 digits at me, now only shows an upside down 'u' a few times and then goes blank. I think all 7 segments work because when I power up the unit they all come on briefly. I have no idea what this upside down 'u' is trying to tell me. Anyone?

[CheffoJeffo]

First .... welcome to the boards.

Don't go guessing at fuses -- get a manual and drawing set and be sure to use the correct fuses (see the wiki for links).

Is the scrambled video the famous Williams rug pattern ?

Do all three LEDs on the power supply board light up ? (you should test the power with a multimeter anyway, but this is a good first step).

Were there old batteries that may have leaked acid in the holder when you replaced the batteries ?

I don't think that I have ever seen the upside down u before.

[cw]

the u could be a 0 with the top section missing... which would point to it coming up or ram rom test..

[lordbah]

Yes all 3 LEDs on the power board light up. I'll see if I can measure when I figure out how to defeat the back panel switch.

One panel does have some information on it which says it needs a 3 amp fuse. Guess I need to go hunt for one.

The video, when it settles, is a solid purple. Until then it is variable, sometimes in what one might call a rug pattern I guess.

As for the 'u' in the LED, the base of the u is the middle crossbar segment. So it seems to me this can't be part of a 0, 1, 2, or 3.

Off to read some wiki ...

[CheffoJeffo]

Yes all 3 LEDs on the power board light up. I'll see if I can measure when I figure out how to defeat the back panel switch.

Pull it out ...

 

[lordbah]

And I was all set to get the duct tape ... :-)  Thanks.

Well, I don't know whether it was pressing the reset button on the CPU board, or moving wires around, or letting it warm up for a half hour, or merely the threat of a software engineer approaching with a multimeter, but it started working. Nice big 0 on the LED now, video works, ran thru the self diagnostics OK. However I would like to adjust the monitor a bit as the top of the cross-hatch pattern is off the top of the display. The instruction PDF doesn't document all the knobs on the monitor. Only two have labels which I saw, "HDK" and "Focus". Guess I can twiddle them and figure it out by trial and error.

With some fiddling I did get the top line visible, however there is bowing in the vertical lines which I can't get rid of. I've found and fiddled with knobs labeled HDK, Focus, 5 I can't find labels for which affect color, VHOLD, VLIN, VHEIGHT, HFREQ. Meanwhile it is back to displaying a 'c' again (what I called an upside down 'u' before), and now the player controls aren't working, though video seems fine. Hopefully I didn't dislodge a connection when moving the monitor back so I could use the mirror to watch as I made adjustments. I do still need to get the right amp fuse (tomorrow), maybe that will change something.

Here are some pics.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1136/732130180_3937212d95.jpg?v=0
http://www.flickr.com/photos/99124999@N00/sets/72157600670684811/

[lordbah]

Put in the 3 amp fuse, didn't seem to change any behavior. Gave up on fixing the monitor vertical line bowing (for now). Remaining problem: every time I power on with the coin door closed it says

HIGH SCORE LIST RESET
BOOKKEEPING TOTALS CLEARED
ADJUSTMENT FAILURE
OPEN COIN DOOR TURN GAME OFF AND ON TO RESET TO FACTORY SETTINGS

Every time I power up with the coin door open it says

HIGH SCORE LIST RESET
BOOKKEEPING TOTALS CLEARED
FACTORY SETTINGS RESTORED

but if I then close the door and power cycle again, it goes back to the adjustment failure.

Diagnostics say the CMOS is okay. The batteries are good. I don't see any corrosion on the battery holders. I can't measure voltages as my multimeter seems to be dead.

I was able to play the game. There were a couple of moments where the sound wasn't working, but other than that it played fine. I'd say the problem at the moment is the "adjustment failure". (the crosshatch bowing doesn't translate into anything I notice while playing the game)

[Q*Bert_OP]

Your batteries might be ok, but pull them out of the holder, bend the contacts of the holder in, reinsert batteries and try that.

[SirPeale]

FYI your monitor is an Electrohome G07.

[D_Zoot]

ADJUSTMENT FAILURE

This is a common problem with these boards.

a) Batteries are dead

b) Battery holder is junk

c) cmos memory failed


The orignal battery holders were crap anyway and were made worse if any one of the batteries leaked just a little.  Even the slightest battery leakage corrodes the contact pad(s).   In may cases I've seen these contact pads missing altogether.

Your cmos tests pass because when the game is on power is provided to the memory chip by the board and power supply.  Diagnostics don't test to see if the chip can retain memory.  Obviously it doesn't or you wouldn't be getting the adjust failure.   If you are assured the batteries and holder are ok, or just go ahead and replace them (not a bad idea)   and   you still have the adjust failure problem it's time to replace the cmos ram.

BTW, I repair Joust boards if this is something you would rather have done.


Your original boot issue and now intermittant sound problem scream connection issues.  Interconnects between the rom board and CPU board and CPU and sound board should all be scrutinized.  Tarnishing of the terminals can cause these problems.   Same goes for the power supply board,  tarnished pins, burnt terminals and bad solder joints are all common place and will cause sags in the supply voltage the boards and erratic operation.

Good luck!

D

[lordbah]

Keeping in mind that you're talking to someone who doesn't normally mess with hardware ... how do I test the battery holder, and how do I find the CMOS RAM and what pins do I measure on it?

[D_Zoot]

Lordbah,

Pop the batteries back out and inspect the battery holder,  it should NOT look like this:
http://www.pinrepair.com/wpc/index3.htm#factory .    I know it's a pinball page, but Williams used the same holder on Joust boards.

Next with the game OFF,  measure voltage from pin 18 of the cmos ram to ground.  The ram chip is the 6514 @ 1C.   You should have better than 3 volts on pin 18. 

If voltage is below 3 volts, and the batteries are new,  check diode D10 (not common failure).   If diode is ok, then replace the battery holder regardless of how it looks.

If you have 3 volts or better at pin 18, then you will need to drop a new cmos ram chip in it.   

If you have 3 volts or more to the cmos and the chip gets replaced and it still gives you the "adjust failure",  you have a logic problem that's a little beyond some basic advice.   It would be pretty rare though, it's almost always the battery holder or cmos ram itself that causes this problem.


Good luck!
D

[lordbah]

Looks like one of the contact points on the battery holder has vanished entirely. (middle left)


Can't think of anything I might have from which I could scavenge something which holds 3 AAs, so I guess there's a trip to Radio Shack in my future.

EDIT: That seems to have done the trick. It looked like it would be a hassle to get the old holder off so I just left it there. The new holder is sticking to the board by a small loop of duct tape. I also put 4 AAs in it rather than the diode the pinball repair guy used.

[SirPeale]

What I've done in the past to fix something like that is take some fine copper wire, wrap it around inside the hole, then solder the whole thing to the pin in the PCB.

[D_Zoot]

I also put 4 AAs in it rather than the diode the pinball repair guy used.

Glad you found the problem!!   

On using 4 batteries instead of 3,  note that  1.5vdc x 4 = 6vdc - .6 drop across D10 = 5.4vdc to the 6514.    The 6514 is happy at 5 volts, retains data down to 2-3 volts and will die at 7vdc.  In your case I don't think the additional 1.5v from an extra battery is going to cause a problem, but for future reference it's best not to change supply voltages without knowing the specs of the chips.

Again, congrats on locating the trouble!

Regards,
D

[lordbah]

The chip at 1C actually doesn't say 6514, it says TC5514AP-3. That make any difference in whether it'll die on too high a voltage?

[D_Zoot]

The chip at 1C actually doesn't say 6514, it says TC5514AP-3. That make any difference in whether it'll die on too high a voltage?

Same specs, shouldn't be a problem.

Still, if you would like to lower the voltage back to the three battery setup the board was designed for,  you need not install a blocking diode in the holder since there's already one on the board (D10).   The blocking diode suggestion you read applies to replacing a rechargeable battery with non-rechargeable.    All you need to do is remove one battery from the holder and solder a jumper wire across in it's place.    Still, you'll be fine the way it is too.


Regards,
D

[lordbah]

Anyone have a good source for TC5514AP-3 or equivalent? I am in the US.

[lordbah]

Anyone have a good source for TC5514AP-3 or equivalent? I am in the US.

Anyone? Bueller?

[lordbah]

PartStore.com says they have TC5514AP-3, but the site has no picture and no details at all (literally empty). I sent them a pic of what I have and they were unable to supply any more details other than to say "if the part numbers match, it's the right part". Then I went looking for some reviews of PartStore.com and found several well-known sites* with a very poor aggregate rating for them - lots of bad experiences with an occasional good one thrown in - and zero sites an a good aggregate rating. So I think I'm going to pass on doing business with them.

* epinions.com, pricegrabber.com, resellerratings.com, shopping.com

[fredster]

I have a joust.  I have a lot of trouble keeping it going.  

I had to replace a lot memory chips on it.  I got a power supply from Bob Roberts and fixed it last time.  If you want parts for a joust, look up the REAL Bob Roberts and he usually has the chip.  Those guys at KLOV know where to get all the chips too.

If you can't fix this, contact me so I can buy the parts off you  

[lordbah]

Got that chip, but I did some collateral damage extracting the old one. The piece right next to 1C, is it a diode? It got destroyed. Writing on it is

104
M
50V

Though that "V" looks more like an upside down "A".

Do you have details on what this component is?

[lordbah]

Par for the course, I've made things worse. Now the video is stationary colorless vertical stripes. The 7 segment LED does not come on (although when I switch the power off it shows 0 for a fraction of a second).

What I did: replace the TC5514 with a 5114 from The Real Bob Roberts, and replace the part next to it which I destroyed with a 1N914 diode.

[Knave Jack]

If you are in SoCal, you are welcome to come by and use my Joust as a reference. It took ALOT of work to get mine running, but now it is super stable and stays very cool inside the cabinet. The list or replacements I made in mine is:
New headers on all boards, new connectors on the original harness, replaced all chip sockets with new ones, replaced all the ram with 4164 chips, had to replace the video decoder chips, switched from "AA"'s to CR2025, re-capped all the boards and monitor, using a switching power supply, and shortly replacing the CPO(although this is just a cosmetic).
I think that's it....but there is one down side to all this. The coin slots wont work if you just use the switcher. It cant create the voltage you need to run the solenoids on the coin door. I am working on using a wall wart for that, but since its set to free play its not really high on the list.

I hope that helps, and doesn't seem too daunting. Not every game needs all that. I just really didn't want to have to mess with the game on a semi-constant basis so I replaced all the common failure points.
Mike