Biscuit advice? (Not the kind with gravy.... but yum!)

[TroyO]

I got a Porter Cable biscuit jointer a few years ago, and never really played with it until recently. (Yard sale find!)

I thought the whole point of biscuits was that they self align so the joint is flush. I did a sample and the biscuits don't fit that tight in the groove. It can still slide out of alignment by about 1/8" up and down.

The biscuits are cheap Harbor Freight ones, is it likely that they're just undersized or am I doing something wrong? (You pretty much hold it to the side of the board and get the guard flat to the board and hit the trigger and push, right?)

[ChadTower]

They are supposed to have a little bit of play.  Not much, but they play a tiny bit so you can align the boards perfectly after gluing but before clamping.

[BobA]

Make sure you get enough gravy (glue) in the slot because the biscuits soak it up and swell to give a tighter joint.  Clamping to ensure proper positioning while the glue dries is necessary.

[ChadTower]

I've been wondering... for something like a tabletop where you are gluing boards in parallel... is it better to glue the boards, then make one clean crosscut at the ends across all, or cut the boards to exact size and then glue/align them?

[TroyO]

I always glue then cut... the cut will align exactly that way. Also, you want to check for the "cup" of the grain and alternate the boards to average out any swelling.   (Warning, crappy ascii example... V^V^V^)

If I can, I do the whole process in pieces that fit the tools I have... I can joint 6 1/8" and plane 12 1/2" so if I want to make a 36" table I cut the stock to 6 1/8", pass it through the jointer which hopefully leaves me something around 6 1/16" by the time I get the face and one edge trued up. I glue 2 together then run the pair through the planer to get the thickness right.

That should be around 12 1/8" so I run it through the table saw and just barely shave one side to make sure everything is parralel. Glue 3 pairs together and hope you have just over 36" and clean it up anyway you can. I usually use a cabinet scraper. Then, finally you can make the final cut to exact sizes.

Ohhh, and length wise my planer "snipes" about 2" from the ends, so I have to make everything about 4 1/2" longer than I need.

[ChadTower]

Could you solve that snipe issue with a shim, maybe doublesided taped?

[ScottS]

I got a Porter Cable biscuit jointer a few years ago, and never really played with it until recently. (Yard sale find!)

I thought the whole point of biscuits was that they self align so the joint is flush. I did a sample and the biscuits don't fit that tight in the groove. It can still slide out of alignment by about 1/8" up and down.

The biscuits are cheap Harbor Freight ones, is it likely that they're just undersized or am I doing something wrong? (You pretty much hold it to the side of the board and get the guard flat to the board and hit the trigger and push, right?)

I'll suggest a couple of things:

1) Buy some decent biscuits. Lamello is generally regarded as producing the best biscuits, but they may be difficult to find. I've been using the Porter-Cable biscuits; they're not too bad. I would not trust Harbor Freight biscuits! A properly-sized biscuit shouldn't allow any vertical movement if the slot is cut correctly.

2) Use the fence. I reference all cuts using the fence. I find I get more consistent results with the fence set at, say, 90-degrees to the tool. I exert downward pressure on the fence, then push the tool into the wood being cut. If you allow the tool to swivel up/down or left/right you'll get a slot that's just big enough to be problematic.

3) Adjust your depth of cut. My Porter-Cable biscuit jointer was adjusted so that biscuit slots were a bit too deep. This leads to a lot of horizontal slop when assembling the joint. I made the cuts shallower, so that there's only a small amount of space for the biscuit to move left/right when inserted into the slot. Obviously, you need to be more careful about aligning the cuts for the slots if you do this! With the shallower slots, I still have a bit of "wiggle room" to get everything to line up, but not so much slow that the parts are sliding all over the place.

[ScottS]

Could you solve that snipe issue with a shim, maybe doublesided taped?

No. Snipe generally happens because one end of the board or the other isn't supported by the tables of the planer or jointer. My DeWalt 733 planer, for example, has infeed and outfeed tables that are only 12-15 inches long. So if you feed, say, an 8' board into the planer there's a lot of weight pushing the board into the cutter head at the start and end of the cut. In addition, as the board enters and leaves the cutting area there may be inconsistent pressure from the feed rollers as they grab or release the board. The best thing you can do to minimize snipe is have long infeed and outfeed tables or rollers (e.g. 2X the length of your longest board). You can also lift up on the end of the board as you feed it in, then run around and lift up on the start of the board as it comes out.

Invariably, you'll still end up with some snipe, though.

[TroyO]

In this case, the snipe is mostly from the head moving when the board clears the rollers. It's not a locking head model. For the most part, I just cut it off. If I'm using expensive stuff, or I need every last inch I sometimes use a sacraficial piece of pine or something similar thickness and feed it on the sides of the main piece at the begining and end of the pass. It holds the rollers up and reduces or eliminates the snipe. I've also had luck using masking tape to hold a sacraficial piece to the end of a board. Basically as long as there's something the same height under both the infeed and outfeed rollers it doesn't snipe. (Much)

Thanks for the pointers. I didn't really check the depth of cut, it wasn't side to side I was as worried about as much as up and down. I'll check for the Lamello biscuits, that might just be all it is.

This one doesn't seem to have  a"fence" per-se. It's kind of like an L with the short leg being where the blade comes out. It's possible I'm missing some portion of the tool. There was enough that it indexed pretty well on the ends of boards. I had a little harder time using it against the face of a board. (90 degree joint)

[ScottS]

This one doesn't seem to have  a"fence" per-se. It's kind of like an L with the short leg being where the blade comes out. It's possible I'm missing some portion of the tool. There was enough that it indexed pretty well on the ends of boards. I had a little harder time using it against the face of a board. (90 degree joint)

The long end of the 'L' should be the fence, at least if you have a modern Porter Cable 557 biscuit joiner. You should be able to change the angle on it. I use this fence whenever possible as I find it makes it much more likely that I'm not going to move the tool up or down while I'm making a cut.

[doctorhifi]

I've been using a biscuit jointer for years and if your biscuit slots allow 1/8" movement as you implied in your first post there is something badly wrong.  Biscuits come in different sizes from #0-#30 and the # is clearly marked on the biscuit.  Make sure your jointer is set to cut the proper bisuit size slot for the # you are using.  There should be virtually no play when a biscuit joint is properly cut and sized.  The glue does make the biscuit swell ever so slightly, but when I install the correct size biscuit in a correctly sized notch sometimes they are hard to pull back out even before glue is applied- thats how snug they should fit.  I'm using a DeWalt.

[DrewKaree]

This one doesn't seem to have  a"fence" per-se. It's kind of like an L with the short leg being where the blade comes out. It's possible I'm missing some portion of the tool. There was enough that it indexed pretty well on the ends of boards. I had a little harder time using it against the face of a board. (90 degree joint)

Almost sounds like you're missing the fence.   Got a pic you can take of the thing so we can see what's going on?

[TroyO]

I see what they mean by a fence, it has that. It's an older model, I'll try and get a pic of it and post it. I think they key is probably the biscuits themselves, when I get some time to play with it I'll get some name brand ones from Home Depot or Lowes.

[Mallen]

I have a Porter Cable Biscuit Jointer and think it's great.  The joints aren't the strongest but are quick and easy to make, perfect for a MAME cab.  1/8 inch play is not right.  You will have 1/8 inch play lenthwise, that is normal, but in the other direction, there should not be any play (maybe 1/32).  I also think you have bad biscuits.  When you bought this, did it come with both blades?  What makes Porter Cable better than any other Biscuit Jointer is the fact that they also have a special blade for face frame joints and it uses a small special biscuit with FF stamped on it like 0 ,10, and 20.  The blade is 2 inches in diameter compared to 4 inches for the standard blade.  If you are using a standard blade and FF biscuits, that would explain your problem.   Another suggestion is to hold the fence when it's down at 90 degrees with your free hand so it doesn't move.  Sounds dangerous but it's not.  If you have to make a buscuit cut like for a T joint and the fence is up, you should use a guide board so the jointer doesn't move making a sloppy joint.   I just assembled two Mame cabinates (my first) in two days, all joints using the biscuit jointer.  Can't beat it.  Even the angled back pieces can be biscuited.  I didn't use one screw.  For angled pieces, set the fence past 90 degrees to match the angle and be SURE TO CHECK THAT THE BLADE WILL NOT GO THROUGH THE WOOD, Before cutting.  If it looks like it will, move the fence up, and if that doesn't quite do it, use a smaller biscuit.  I hope you figure it out, you will like it.  Oh, I buy all my biscuits at either Woodworkers Supply.  I stay away from Harbor F.  Get what you pay for.    Note: in every competition with Biscuit Jointers, Porter Cable won. 

[ChadTower]

Yeah, when I said there should be play, I meant parallel to the biscuits... not perpendicular to them.  I misunderstood his scenario.

[TroyO]

Hmmm, I got the biscuit jointer used and it only has the one blade in it. It's possible it's not "standard" size.

I never did take a pic, but I did recently pick up some Biscuits... Dewalt brand this time, but I haven't had a chance to play with it yet. I did compare it to the other biscuits and this one seems just a hair thicker.

I like the idea of biscuit joinery, I just haven't had a project to really experiment with lately.

Thanks for all the help though.... I have a better feeling for what to expect and what to look for when i do get my butt back in the shop.

[DrewKaree]

Hmmm, I got the biscuit jointer used and it only has the one blade in it. It's possible it's not "standard" size.

It's only going to have one blade.  There should be a setting on there for different sized biscuits so you just change the depth setting and therefore don't have to change blade sizes every time you want to use a different-sized biscuit.

[ScottS]

It's only going to have one blade.  There should be a setting on there for different sized biscuits so you just change the depth setting and therefore don't have to change blade sizes every time you want to use a different-sized biscuit.

Actually, as Mallen points out, the Porter-Cable biscuit joiner has two different blade sizes. There's a 4" diameter blade for use with "normal" size biscuits and a 2" diameter blade for Porter-Cable's "FF" biscuits that are used to hold cabinet face frames together. If you've got the wrong blade, it should be immediately obvious...

[DrewKaree]

It's only going to have one blade.  There should be a setting on there for different sized biscuits so you just change the depth setting and therefore don't have to change blade sizes every time you want to use a different-sized biscuit.

Actually, as Mallen points out, the Porter-Cable biscuit joiner has two different blade sizes. There's a 4" diameter blade for use with "normal" size biscuits and a 2" diameter blade for Porter-Cable's "FF" biscuits that are used to hold cabinet face frames together. If you've got the wrong blade, it should be immediately obvious...

Troy's only has one blade (evidently the seller lost/kept it on him).  I'm simply playing the odds since he said he's been using some Harbor Freight biscuits and assuming he's got the larger blade, and not the blade for the FF biscuits. 

Ultimately, that larger blade can and will make slots for 3 different size biscuits, and he needs to find the adjustment on the tool to change this.

Troy, Google the model number of your biscuit jointer to see if you can find a manual.  It sounds as if you're either inexperienced or unfamiliar or both on how this tool works, and the manual will do you a world of good.  Perhaps it's the same one as Scott has and he can scan it in for you or something, but the info on your machine keeps coming in piecemeal which makes me think you're learning as you go - the manual will help you out tons.

[ChadTower]

I need to bust out my biscuit joiner and play around with it.  It's a good one, just haven't used it yet.

[TroyO]

I'm definitely learning as I go. That's half the fun of woodworking..... jumping in over my head and either sinking or swimming,  LOL. Good idea about seeing if I can locate the manual. (I actually occasionally read those too!)

I won't have a chance in the shop for another week or so, but I am considering using biscuits and glue for some kitchen cabinetry so I'll be running up a couple of test boards to see if I can get it dialed in. I have seen biscuits used, and have a basic idea of the overall process. Armed with the info I got here I'm pretty sure I can get it going.

The overall goal is to make my own kitchen cabinets (Purpleheart). I'm learning tons on other projects, but I'm getting close to actually starting on that project and have a few more "niches" of woodworking to figure out. I'm also getting my tools in order.... working on completely reconditioning an old Delta contractors saw and fitting it with a Biesemyer fence. (Combined 2 used units, I have 2 fences and the rail is offset to get a 36" cut to the right of the blade.... invested about $200)

Why am I working so hard on kitchen cabinets rather than arcade cabinets? Because I promised the girlfriend I'd get the kitchen done before I started any other big projects, LOL. Then I slid in installing a used hot tub, and of course re-siding the Hot Tub, and re-wiring the house and..... I think I'm out of "Just one more project before I start..." cards. ;-P

[ScottS]

The overall goal is to make my own kitchen cabinets (Purpleheart).

FWIW, nobody really uses biscuits on kitchen cabinets these days. Pocket hole screws are the way to go...

[Mallen]

Ok, I see now the problem is with biscuit THICKNESS.  Quality biscuits will help.  I doubt you have the FF blade in the biscuit cutter, it would be too small not too big.  Here's a video I found that you may want to watch.  It shows how to make the hole size bigger, which may be what someone did to yours TroyO.  Also there was some good info on how to check adjust depth of cut.   
I think the trick is to have either the fence down at 90 degrees and hold it with your hand so the blade doesn't move or the have a board clamped to the piece to make a temporary fence.  I free handed mine the other day, and some were a little loose, what happens is the blade wants to walk when it starts to cut.  I suggest expirementing on some scrap pieces.  I build (try) nice furnature for my house using tenon joints, tongue and groove, dovetail and other hard to make joints.  I don't use the biscuit jointer when I need strong joints.  But it's great for a quick plywood/particle board type project.  After I cut all the pieces to my MAME, I grabbed the biscuit jointer and assembled it in about two hours.  Basicly line up the joints and pencil mark where you want the biscuits, then zing zing and glue. 
FYI you can find a manual here: http://deltaportercable.com/ServiceAndSupport/OwnersManuals.aspx
enjoy

[TroyO]

I have the Kreg pocket hole jig... not the newest one but it does the same thing minus dust collection. I love pocket screws for face frames or maybe some knock together shop cabinets, but I'm not so sure I want to use them for my kitchen cabinets carcass. (Face frames it's great)

For one, I have trouble keeping everything aligned exactly when doing 90 degree joints. Not sure why, except that i don't really have a great way to clamp them both ways while driving the screws. The screws end up slightly shifting the joint.  For flat to flat they work perfectly.

I know biscuits don't reinforce much, but they (hopefully) will keep everything nice and tightly aligned while the glue dries.

The video had some great info... I'll check and see if someone has done that on mine, it's quite possible. I also liked the visual for checking the depth of the biscuit. I assume that those lines are overlapped, so the biscuit is that much deeper than the joint. That's an easy and effective way to set the depth.

Thanks again all for the great info!

[ScottS]

For one, I have trouble keeping everything aligned exactly when doing 90 degree joints. Not sure why, except that i don't really have a great way to clamp them both ways while driving the screws. The screws end up slightly shifting the joint.  For flat to flat they work perfectly.

It sounds like you need a Kreg Right-Angle Clamp! It makes assembling 90-degree joints much less of a chore... especially if you can afford two of them. Then you can quickly put together a four-sided box with pocket screws (which will be hidden from view if placed on the outside of the cabinets), then slap on a back with a few screws, and you're done! Much easier than biscuits, in my experience... To be honest, I never use my biscuit jointer and should probably sell it.

[TroyO]

Hey now... that's interesting! They didn't have those when I got my kit, I don't think. I'd bet 4 of them would work nicely even for cabinet sized stuff.

Crap... more tools to buy....... Wait, don't I really mean "Yay! More tools to buy!"

[ChadTower]

Just picked up a Kreg pocket hole jig setup at Lowe's on clearance for $25. 

[Mallen]

Not sure what kind of screws the Kreg pocket hole jig uses, but look into Square Drive screws.  You will never want to drive a phillips screw again.  You will need a square drive bit to drive them in, they don't slip off like phillips.  I bought a few boxes of all the common sizes from Grizzly.  You may pay a few cents more per box, but you will never bugger one up and have to extract it.
 I wouldn't knock biscuit jointers until you've really tried them.  I like mine and see no need to get a pocket hole jig.  They are probably close to the same in quickness, price and strength.  I think a pocket hole jig would have trouble with anything other than a 90 degree angle (correct me if I'm wrong).  But a biscuit jointer can be adjusted to just about any inside or outside angle, like the back angled piece of a MAME cab.   Also, if it's drilled from a visible side of your piece, you will have to somehow hide all those screw holes, usually with a special pocket hole plug, more $$, more sanding.  Biscuits are always hidden.
 

[TroyO]

Kreg uses square drive screws. They are self tapping, and they have a kind of built in washer at the head. They work well.

I was thinking through my plan (As if a plan ever survives contact with the wood) and what I may do is actually a combo of pocket holes and biscuits. Pocket holes on the top of the box where they won't be seen... mostly because they are "screw and go" without waiting for the glue to dry, then biscuits on the bottom so I don't have to have any visible pocket holes, or anything else visible screwing up the veneer.

It simplifies the glue up, and lets me get away with fewer clamps for each box. Of course, it's all dependant on my getting a handle on the biscuits, which I still haven't gotten any shop time to play with. Bleh!

[ScottS]

If you're building kitchen cabinets, keep in mind that the only part of the box that's ever seen is the inside. You can put all the pocket hole screws you want on the outside of the box. Pocket hole screws on the outside of the bottom get hidden by the toe kick. Pocket screws on the outside top are covered by the counter. Pocket screws on the sides are normally hidden by adjoining cabinets. At the end of the run, you install a fake panel which is typically made of 1/4" plywood that matches the cabinet boxes. For the bottoms of upper cabinets, you can use the same kind of fake panel.

[TroyO]

The right angle clamps help immensley... I (Finally!) got some  shop time in, and although I still haven't played with the biscuit jointer, the pocket holes and right angle clamps worked great for the base cabinet. I'm not sure exactly how I want the top cabinets to go together, but for the base ones where the bottoms won't be seen the pocket holes worked superb, and the clamps did a good job holding everything in place.

About the only problem was the weight... they are heavy and like to swing down when clamped and that stresses the pocket hole and on one (That I also bumped with my elbow) there was some chip out. Nothing major since it can't be seen but something to watch for. All in all, I'd say it was pretty much a nessesary upgrade for anyone trying 90 joinery with pocket screws. Danka, ScottS! 

[ScottS]

The right angle clamps help immensley... I (Finally!) got some  shop time in, and although I still haven't played with the biscuit jointer, the pocket holes and right angle clamps worked great for the base cabinet. I'm not sure exactly how I want the top cabinets to go together, but for the base ones where the bottoms won't be seen the pocket holes worked superb, and the clamps did a good job holding everything in place.

It's all in how you design the cabinets. For a wall cabinet, you want the sides and back to rest on the base, and the top to rest on the sides and back. That way, you just have to drill pocket holes on the outside of the sides and back; the pockets won't be visible from the top or bottom. This isn't a bad design for base cabinets, either. The only thing you have to worry about then are the end cabinets, where the pocket holes might be visible. Typically, you'd cover the visible end with either a thin (1/8") sheet of plywood or a decorative panel that looks similar to the cabinet doors. Often these panels are just attached with construction adhesive, though you can also use screws and plugs.