Author Topic: A new approach to 4 player CP (Read 7679 times)

willhs · « **on:** June 05, 2007, 11:30:52 pm »

Update (6/7):

I've decided to axe the 4p setup, and instead build 2 additional "gamepads" using Happs Super, 7 buttons and a USB interface. That way, those can handle classics and fighters, and hook in for 4p games when needed. The main unit has undergone some big changes. I'm planning on putting real pinball corners on the front with flipper buttons. I'm also hoping to put a real plunger on the front, but I can't build that kind of thing and there isn't a good option to buy it at the moment.

The second attachment is the tentative layout -- again, I'm going to do the real tweaking on many cardboard layouts (that's how I decided not to do a true 4p).

Original Post:

Hi all,

Admittedly, for a while I thought I'd just have to buy a SlikStik because all of the components are so expensive on their own. Then I discovered you guys, and I found all the ways to get components cheaper and build this thing. I've been lurking around these boards for a few weeks now. I have a pretty crazy tentative layout -- I just threw this together to get some thoughts and advice while I pull together my to-dos.

You'll first notice that the spacing isn't perfect here. I'm really just looking for advice on the whole layout itself. As you can see, I placed two spinners on the front of the layout. I've looked at tons and tons of example layouts, and I couldn't find anyone else attempting this, but I really think it's a good idea. I'm planning on building a ton of cardboard mockups to make sure this works right (I think that's more important than a Visio plan, but I wanted a concept drawing). My thinking is that people don't generally rest their hands on the arcade when playing games (esp fighters and stuff that those controls are made for). Also, putting the spinners up front makes them easy to use for the few arcade dual spinner games AND 2 player Pong the way it was meant to be played. At first, I also thought it'd be great for dual racers, but alas, there really aren't many of those at all. But, I will definitely use spinners that can attach a wheel (might only get one wheel though).

The other layout aspect that's a bit different: the 2 buttons above the trackball. I was thinking it'd be nice to have mouse clicks there, and a pause (right mouse) and quit (left mouse) function.

Finally, should I switch the 4 way and the trackball? I think Tron works with a right handed 4way, but it kind of looks nicer not to have 2 joysticks right next to each other.

And yes, this is my first post. I hope I'm not being too presumptuous to just jump in with a layout.

Thanks!

Will

Anubis_au · « **Reply #1 on:** June 06, 2007, 12:03:59 am »

Welcome to the boards!

And now I'm going to look at your layout

JasonA · « **Reply #2 on:** June 06, 2007, 01:30:05 am »

I like your layout. Please tell me how many inches wide is that panel in the mock up?

willhs · « **Reply #3 on:** June 06, 2007, 01:50:37 am »

Thanks guys. Actually, that layout is pretty huge -- measures 52" on Visio. I should say that this is intended to be a desktop CP, and my desk is 48" wide. So, I'm pretty sure I can tweak a few things here and there and get this down to 48". That'll be part of the fun of the cardboard phase. :-)

If I may toss out a question -- do I pretty much have to use the I-PAC4 with this? I've been looking at specs all over the place, and I can't get a straight answer on whether the KeyWiz or others could handle this kind of setup.

Thanks,
Will

leapinlew · « **Reply #4 on:** June 06, 2007, 08:14:07 am »

The spinners wouldn't work for me for 2 reasons that I can think of.

My arm rests below the buttons and the spinners would get in the way, and they would get in the way of some button mashing games we like to play (Track n Field, Hypersports, Etc.)

shardian · « **Reply #5 on:** June 06, 2007, 08:54:45 am »

hi and welcome to the boards!

First off, let me share this with you: When I first dived into the byoac hobby, I dreamed of a monster frankenpanel with one or two of everything just like yours. After playing ALOT of the games, immersing myself in research, aquiring ALOT of parts and components, I realized that my dream frankenpanel was not something I would like. So, my advice to you is to make sure this monstrosity is something you really, truly want or else you might find yourself stuck with a $500, 50 lb eyesore.

Having said that and assuming you still want to follow thru, here are some of my notes:
- The spinner directly below player buttons is a problem I think. When you do your cardboard cutouts, make sure to simulate the spinner knob sticking up to see how it works.
-player three is going to be humping player one with their ocntrols so close together. Fortunately, no humping going on way over on player 4's side of the continent.

However, he/she will suffer from carpal tunnel if trying to angle in there to hold their controls properly.

Lastly, what you are doing has been planned many, many times. It has been built quite a few times too.

Have a look at Uncle T's cabinet, as it seems to have everything you need, and he has laid it out about as good as all of that can be laid out on one panel.
http://unclet.arcadecontrols.com/DadsArcade/DadsArcadeMain.html

Good Luck!

javeryh · « **Reply #6 on:** June 06, 2007, 09:19:14 am »

Welcome! I agree with everything shardian and leapinlew said - especially the part about the spinners getting in the way of the buttons directly above them. Also, 48" is HUGE. I also wanted to have an all-in-one solution for a CP when I first started and I tried for it with my first cabinet (a 3-sided cocktail). If I could do it all over again I'd still make the cocktail cabinet but I'd lose the long CP. If you really want to play as many games as possible I recommend building multiple cabinets over a period of time.

shardian · « **Reply #7 on:** June 06, 2007, 09:22:15 am »

Quote from: javeryh on June 06, 2007, 09:19:14 am

If you really want to play as many games as possible I recommend building multiple cabinets over a period of time.

Of course, swappable control panels is always an option.

Kaytrim · « **Reply #8 on:** June 06, 2007, 09:34:36 am »

On the encoders you have a few choices. The iPac4 is a good choice for a 4 player setup but not the only option. You can use a KeyWiz but you will have to add a GPWiz to get all the inputs handled. You may think that you can use 2 KeyWiz cards but your computer has only one PS/2 keyboard connection. Another option is to get two iPac2 cards or two Mini-Pac cards.

Now for your optical devices, trackball and spinners. There is the OptiWiz or OptiPac cards. You will need two of these cards. One will be for the spinners and the other for the trackball. The Mini-Pac can help you here too. This is because the Mini-Pac has connection for optical devices as well.

This goes against my bias. (I am a GGG guy) IMHO two Mini-Pac cards should do you well for this layout. And if you sometime down the road decide that you no longer want to have the 4 player layout you can break it down and make two 2 player layouts without spending money on extra equipment.

TTFN

Kaytrim

shardian · « **Reply #9 on:** June 06, 2007, 09:48:53 am »

If you are planning on using TT2 spinner with wheel attachments, they already come with optiwiz controllers. The second TT2 can be run as a slave to the 1st spinner. If you get a trackball that is pc plug/n/play then you don't need and additional optical controllers - IE, a minipac would be redundant.

willhs · « **Reply #10 on:** June 06, 2007, 01:59:08 pm »

Thanks for helping me out, guys. Yeah, I considered that the spinner may be in the way, but I think that it's still possible to put them in that area safely. Well, that's the dream anyway. I'm going to put all of the parts into a cardboard setup to check for usability, and I'll try a few different configs. If it does get in the way down there, I think I can move the 2 spinners to just above the 1&2p setups. I definitely want a 4p setup because of the games (huge sentimental value), and I think adding these other components to it would be manageable. At least, I want to get all the components and try them out in cardboard -- then if need be I can cut it down to 2 CPs.

And yeah, I'm thinking the TT2 is the way to go. I talked to Randy about that, and 2 master TT2s with the trackball would be a good setup. That would cover all of my optics, and leave me with one open optic thing in case I want to add to the panel (in the other master).

@Kaytrim: wouldn't it be cheapest to just get one iPac4, then? Also, I could probably get PS/2 for a 4 player setup, if USB only allows 6 simultaneous inputs and that would definitely be a problem in a 4p game. Right?

Thanks,
Will

shardian · « **Reply #11 on:** June 06, 2007, 02:11:15 pm »

Quote from: willhs on June 06, 2007, 01:59:08 pm

Also, I could probably get PS/2 for a 4 player setup, if USB only allows 6 simultaneous inputs and that would definitely be a problem in a 4p game. Right?

The 6 key limitation does not apply to the IPAC usb. And before you ask, the IPAC USB and ps/2 are the exact same encoder- the only difference is the cable that you plug into the pc.

willhs · « **Reply #12 on:** June 06, 2007, 04:28:24 pm »

Okay, that's very good to know.

I just hit my first snag, though -- I found that I love visual pinball, and it'd be impossible to use pinball buttons that are 4 feet apart (on the edges of this beast). So, after struggling with this idea (should I drop the 4p concept, or what?) I decided it might be wise to semi-copy the layout in example 1 below. I'm not sure about angling the controls though (instead, I'd probably make the controls like example 2). But, can someone explain why it's so bad to angle them? I've seen it all over these forums via search that it is bad, but no real reason why...

Also, I'm thinking about putting real pinball corners on that front part (for the flipper buttons to go into). I haven't seen anyone do this before, but I think it'd add some sweet authentic feel to it.

Thanks,
Will

Havok · « **Reply #13 on:** June 06, 2007, 04:48:13 pm »

Looks good, however take a look at the 4 player games you will run, and examine if you really need 6 buttons for 3 and 4 - most likely you don't. I would also not put three buttons above the trackball - you can use the player 1 or 2 buttons instead...

willhs · « **Reply #14 on:** June 06, 2007, 05:03:50 pm »

Yeah, I think I'll use 4 buttons for 3&4p, and I'm thinking of keeping 2 buttons above the trackball for mouse clicks and also pause/quit.

javeryh · « **Reply #15 on:** June 06, 2007, 05:38:31 pm »

I would kill the 4P setup altogether. How many 4P games worth playing are there? The Simpsons, X-Men, TMNT, NBA Jam, Gauntlet and maybe one or two more of the good ones would all be just fine with 2 players. Are you going to constantly have enough people over to play 4P games? I don't know but it's definitely something to consider before you build a beast of a CP that won't really get used to its capacity all that much. Just food for thought.

Aurich · « **Reply #16 on:** June 06, 2007, 05:58:08 pm »

IMHO 4 player controls panels are a giant waste of space and time. I suggest you drop the mostly-useless extra 2 players and focus on a decent 2 player panel. I have never once with my cabinets wished I had a 4 player panel, and I'm glad all the time that I don't have a beast like that.

jasonbar · « **Reply #17 on:** June 06, 2007, 06:38:52 pm »

Sharidan-

I just want to confirm that I understand your post here. I have an IPAC4 that I'll be hooking up to my PC soon (things are going slooooow). Right now my IPAC4 has a PS/2 keyboard cable coming out of it for the PC. If I slip a PS2-to-USB adapter on there & plug it into a USB port on the PC instead of the PS/2 port, then I have infinite simultaneous keypress capability?

Thanks,
-Jason

Quote from: shardian on June 06, 2007, 02:11:15 pm

Quote from: willhs on June 06, 2007, 01:59:08 pm
Also, I could probably get PS/2 for a 4 player setup, if USB only allows 6 simultaneous inputs and that would definitely be a problem in a 4p game. Right?

The 6 key limitation does not apply to the IPAC usb. And before you ask, the IPAC USB and ps/2 are the exact same encoder- the only difference is the cable that you plug into the pc.

willhs · « **Reply #18 on:** June 06, 2007, 07:07:18 pm »

Quote from: javeryh on June 06, 2007, 05:38:31 pm

I would kill the 4P setup altogether. How many 4P games worth playing are there? The Simpsons, X-Men, TMNT, NBA Jam, Gauntlet and maybe one or two more of the good ones would all be just fine with 2 players. Are you going to constantly have enough people over to play 4P games? I don't know but it's definitely something to consider before you build a beast of a CP that won't really get used to its capacity all that much. Just food for thought.

Yeah, I've really been thinking about that... here's what I'm thinking: the additional cost and space of adding the extra 2 players isn't really that much. I mean, it's still going to be a beast no matter what (32", with all of the features I'm putting in this thing, would still be absolutely gigantic), and it would make the panel totally able to play all of the games I want. I still totally see where you guys are coming from, though, so I decided to just get all of the components first from one of the vendors on the forum (I'm using Happs competition sticks and buttons, which are cheap), and I am going to make the cardboard layouts first to see how I feel about it. Then, I can always sell those components and take a small loss (a few bucks) if I decide that 4p isn't going to work that well. Basically, I'm putting a lot of stock into these cardboard experiments because I think that's the best way to really visualize this thing and get the controls just right.

I'm putting in my order now, so I'll have some designs to report pretty soon!

javeryh · « **Reply #19 on:** June 06, 2007, 08:11:56 pm »

Good idea - mockups are essential. I cut 4 separate CPs for my last cab before I settled on a "final" design. Hmmm.... cardboard would have probably saved me a lot of headaches...

willhs · « **Reply #20 on:** June 06, 2007, 09:54:42 pm »

Yeah, cardboard was a great idea. I already finished one mockup and realize that you're right!! I'm going to axe the ends off and just do 2p, BUT I want to build 2 USB fighter setups in addition so I can still do 4p games when needed, and they can be used for other situations as well.

My question -- what board can I use for just a 1p setup that would have USB? I need 9 buttons and a joystick. Do I have to do the iPac-1?

Thanks!
Will

leapinlew · « **Reply #21 on:** June 06, 2007, 09:59:12 pm »

Good thought...

the only way a 48" CP works is in a Showcase scenario.

shardian · « **Reply #22 on:** June 06, 2007, 10:37:57 pm »

Quote from: jasonbar on June 06, 2007, 06:38:52 pm

Sharidan-

I just want to confirm that I understand your post here. I have an IPAC4 that I'll be hooking up to my PC soon (things are going slooooow). Right now my IPAC4 has a PS/2 keyboard cable coming out of it for the PC. If I slip a PS2-to-USB adapter on there & plug it into a USB port on the PC instead of the PS/2 port, then I have infinite simultaneous keypress capability?

Thanks,
-Jason

Quote from: shardian on June 06, 2007, 02:11:15 pm
Quote from: willhs on June 06, 2007, 01:59:08 pm
Also, I could probably get PS/2 for a 4 player setup, if USB only allows 6 simultaneous inputs and that would definitely be a problem in a 4p game. Right?

The 6 key limitation does not apply to the IPAC usb. And before you ask, the IPAC USB and ps/2 are the exact same encoder- the only difference is the cable that you plug into the pc.

IIRC, the plug converters don't work with the IPAC, you have to have a true ps/2 to USB cable. If you contact whomever you bought the IPAC from, they can hook you up with a cable very inexpensively.

Personally though, you don't need a usb connector for an IPAC4 because there is no added benefit of hot swap if you panel is permanently connected to your computer. The only time USB is beneficial IMO is when you have multiple encoders, or are using a portable control panel.

jasonbar · « **Reply #23 on:** June 06, 2007, 10:46:47 pm »

Sharidan-
Thanks for your added input. My IPAC4 was set up in my SlikStik Quad panel & outfitted w/ a PS/2 cable. I'm inclined to use the PS/2 cable anyway, since that frees up a USB port for my many many many peripherals.

I did some digging & found this thread, which seems to go into the 6 vs. 20 vs. infinite keystrokes, , USB vs. PS/2 issue: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=61826.0

Thanks,
-J

Aurich · « **Reply #24 on:** June 06, 2007, 11:38:04 pm »

Quote from: shardian on June 06, 2007, 10:37:57 pm

IIRC, the plug converters don't work with the IPAC, you have to have a true ps/2 to USB cable. If you contact whomever you bought the IPAC from, they can hook you up with a cable very inexpensively.

The convertors work just fine, I'm using one right now.

patrickl · « **Reply #25 on:** June 07, 2007, 03:05:03 am »

You could also build a 2 player CP and add two game controllers that you plug into USB ports if you ever might want a to play a 4 player game. Game controllers cost little.

patrickl · « **Reply #26 on:** June 07, 2007, 03:06:18 am »

Quote from: Aurich on June 06, 2007, 11:38:04 pm

Quote from: shardian on June 06, 2007, 10:37:57 pm
IIRC, the plug converters don't work with the IPAC, you have to have a true ps/2 to USB cable. If you contact whomever you bought the IPAC from, they can hook you up with a cable very inexpensively.

The convertors work just fine, I'm using one right now.

Indeed I always thought they wouldn't work, but Andy himself said they do and indeed they do.

willhs · « **Reply #27 on:** June 07, 2007, 07:03:06 am »

Quote from: patrickl on June 07, 2007, 03:05:03 am

You could also build a 2 player CP and add two game controllers that you plug into USB ports if you ever might want a to play a 4 player game. Game controllers cost little.

Yes, that's exactly what I want to do now! But, I'm not totally sure what encoder is best for those 2 extra "gamepads" -- any input? Ipac is almost overkill, but I need USB for these things so they can be used for other applications and easily lent out to others.

patrickl · « **Reply #28 on:** June 07, 2007, 08:06:47 am »

Yeah you could build some yourself, but I was more thinking about a gamepad. For instance like these

shardian · « **Reply #29 on:** June 07, 2007, 08:30:19 am »

Quote from: patrickl on June 07, 2007, 03:06:18 am

Quote from: Aurich on June 06, 2007, 11:38:04 pm
Quote from: shardian on June 06, 2007, 10:37:57 pm
IIRC, the plug converters don't work with the IPAC, you have to have a true ps/2 to USB cable. If you contact whomever you bought the IPAC from, they can hook you up with a cable very inexpensively.

The convertors work just fine, I'm using one right now.
Indeed I always thought they wouldn't work, but Andy himself said they do and indeed they do.

Heh, learn something new every day.

willhs · « **Reply #30 on:** June 07, 2007, 09:01:38 am »

Quote from: patrickl on June 07, 2007, 08:06:47 am

Yeah you could build some yourself, but I was more thinking about a gamepad. For instance like these

Ah, but it wouldn't cost that much more to make one out of true arcade components, in the same style as my main CP. Especially since I'm investing so much in this project, I might as well make the 2 extra controllers. I'm thinking a Happs Super (so I can switch b/w 4 & 8 player) with 7 buttons and a coin and player start. Is there any option besides Ipac (or keyboard hack) for a USB encoder?

Thanks,
Will

willhs · « **Reply #31 on:** June 07, 2007, 09:24:07 am »

Also, see the original post for an update to the layout. I am currently thinking that putting the spinners below the 8-ways wouldn't get in the way.

And another question: Does anyone with a TT2 spinner think that I could hook up a Pole Position steering wheel to one? It would be amazing if I could. As you can see from the layout, it would work to use the 4-way as a shifter and the trackball as a pedal (for now).

Also, be sure to imagine pinball corners on the front side when you look at that mockup.

W

leapinlew · « **Reply #32 on:** June 07, 2007, 09:42:09 am »

Quote from: willhs on June 07, 2007, 09:24:07 am

Also, see the original post for an update to the layout. I am currently thinking that putting the spinners below the 8-ways wouldn't get in the way.

And another question: Does anyone with a TT2 spinner think that I could hook up a Pole Position steering wheel to one? It would be amazing if I could. As you can see from the layout, it would work to use the 4-way as a shifter and the trackball as a pedal (for now).

Also, be sure to imagine pinball corners on the front side when you look at that mockup.

W

I think your killing yourself trying to get these spinners on there. You'll really wanted controls that are dedicated and not in the way of other controls.

willhs · « **Reply #33 on:** June 07, 2007, 09:54:52 am »

@ leapinlew: I totally see where you're coming from, BUT I still think I can make this setup work without getting it in the way. No one rests their joystick hand on the panel (at least, not in the normal course of play). I'm going to make the extra joysticks first and get a good idea of real usage before making the beast. Plus, if all else fails, I can always put the spinners elsewhere.

w

leapinlew · « **Reply #34 on:** June 07, 2007, 10:29:49 am »

Quote from: willhs on June 07, 2007, 09:54:52 am

No one rests their joystick hand on the panel (at least, not in the normal course of play).

I do. I totally do when playing 4 way old school games. When playing fighting games, my hand doesn't hover 2 inches above the CP. I would be hitting that spinner all the time. Eventually I'd get so mad - I'd flip your machine over.

Something to consider...

shardian · « **Reply #35 on:** June 07, 2007, 12:57:17 pm »

When I play Ms. pacman at the local pizza place, I pretty much rest my wrist and part of forearm on the control panel.

shardian · « **Reply #36 on:** June 07, 2007, 12:59:05 pm »

Quote from: willhs on June 07, 2007, 09:24:07 am

And another question: Does anyone with a TT2 spinner think that I could hook up a Pole Position steering wheel to one? It would be amazing if I could. As you can see from the layout, it would work to use the 4-way as a shifter and the trackball as a pedal (for now).

Only the specially made wheels randy makes should be used on the TT2. Anything else, and you are risking your expensive component.

BTW, how exactly would you plan on using a trackball as a pedal?

willhs · « **Reply #37 on:** June 07, 2007, 01:45:53 pm »

Quote

Only the specially made wheels randy makes should be used on the TT2. Anything else, and you are risking your expensive component.

Do you have one (wheel & spinner)? If so, what's your impression of the heft, etc? Literally the only racing game I want to play is Pole Position, so if it's feasible to attach that wheel I'd really like to.

Quote

BTW, how exactly would you plan on using a trackball as a pedal?

Thought I saw a post on that somewhere in my searches. If that doesn't work, that's fine.

Also, regarding resting hands with 4-ways, the spinner isn't below the 4-way (that's in the middle, by the trackball). My current cardboard is 18 inches deep, so with my hands resting on it near their respective 8-way, there's plenty of room. As I said, I may well move the spinners to the other side of the panel once I put the real buttons in a mockup (when I put that together, I'll post pictures).

Before I place my order, I need to know if the Ipac is, in fact, the only USB interface that could work for 2 separate 1p fighter setups. Anyone?

Thanks!

Kaytrim · « **Reply #38 on:** June 07, 2007, 02:19:58 pm »

Look at the GPWiz from GGG.

willhs · « **Reply #39 on:** June 07, 2007, 03:46:53 pm »

Quote from: Kaytrim on June 07, 2007, 02:19:58 pm

Look at the GPWiz from GGG.

Wow, I'm an idiot. I looked at that, and for some reason thought it wouldn't work with the controllers. Just to be sure, with my central layout (two 8-ways and one 4-way), most people wire the 4-way and the first 8-way to the same spots, right?


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