Playstation 1.... An audiophiles dream????

[koolmoecraig]

http://www.destructoid.com/playstation-1-the-audiophile-s-dream--32269.phtml

Pretty cool.

[polaris]

regarding what it says about the other consoles, a mate told me that dvd laser was much higher quality than cd, that at least would have an improving effect ,if the other components were comporable to the ps1 as opposed to being cheaper/not so good then its possible the audio is better again.

[boykster]

Interesting.....not that suprising.  There are tons of examples of consumer grade equipment out-performing high-end / high dollar components.  It is a bit suprising that the PS1 (that specific model) would be one of them, but that's how it works sometimes.

There's a huge thread over at avsforum about a panasonic HTIB dvd/receiver combination component that has an amazing digital amp section....the box cost $300 or so, and people with $5000-20,000 component pre/pro + seperate amp section systems were trading them for this "low end" digital amp....pretty amazing.

[Joystick Jerk]

100% ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---. There are a certain class of audiophiles with an unlimited amount of money and time, and they can convince themselves of anything. The same people that would spend $2000 on chemically balanced wooden volume knobs or a 3 foot audio cable will also believe that a console with off the shelf audio parts is performing some sort of audio magic. The sites that cater to these idiots also tout the fact that they don't support double blind testing, i.e. they ignore the very thing that could prove they're completely full of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.

[pointdablame]

100% ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---. There are a certain class of audiophiles with an unlimited amount of money and time, and they can convince themselves of anything. The same people that would spend $2000 on chemically balanced wooden volume knobs or a 3 foot audio cable will also believe that a console with off the shelf audio parts is performing some sort of audio magic. The sites that cater to these idiots also tout the fact that they don't support double blind testing, i.e. they ignore the very thing that could prove they're completely full of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.

did an audiophile kill your puppy?

[RayB]

I'm not surprised. It's digital data. There's a ceiling regarding how well you can convert that data to the sound it's supposed to represent. All you need is a proper interpolation algorithm and a circuit that doesn't bleed any noise into it.

[boykster]

100% ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---. There are a certain class of audiophiles with an unlimited amount of money and time, and they can convince themselves of anything. The same people that would spend $2000 on chemically balanced wooden volume knobs or a 3 foot audio cable will also believe that a console with off the shelf audio parts is performing some sort of audio magic. The sites that cater to these idiots also tout the fact that they don't support double blind testing, i.e. they ignore the very thing that could prove they're completely full of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.

While I agree with you in principle...I call it the "Monster Cable" effect....that doesn't mean that ALL equipment is created equally.  I have no clue if the PS1 as a cd player is rational or not, but I replaced my $3000 denon AVR with a $300 panasonic XR55 digital AVR because it really DID sound better.  I DID do blind tests, and preferred the cheap reciever over my flagship model. 

 

[Joystick Jerk]

While I agree with you in principle...I call it the "Monster Cable" effect....that doesn't mean that ALL equipment is created equally.  I have no clue if the PS1 as a cd player is rational or not, but I replaced my $3000 denon AVR with a $300 panasonic XR55 digital AVR because it really DID sound better.  I DID do blind tests, and preferred the cheap reciever over my flagship model. 

 

Of course, everythings different. And cheaper items can perform better than more expensive items. But this is clearly a case of people thinking what they want to think and ignoring reality. Crack open a PS2, and it has fairly primitive audio capabilties. Some idiot was listening to it, and for whatever reason suddenly decided it was the best sound he had ever heard. He spreads that around, and suddenly every techy audiophile is believing that the PS2 is the ultimate sound processing machine.

[romperwomb]

Hmm, I remember having to turn my PS1 upside down to get it to read disks.

[boykster]

Hmm, I remember having to turn my PS1 upside down to get it to read disks.

you should post that over on that thread...maybe the audiophiles will try it and achieve sonic nirvana 

[Joystick Jerk]

Superior harmonic dampening via media inversion.

[Howard_Casto]

Here's a tip to you guys.... if you've ever paid more than 1000 bucks for an audio system then you have a serious problem and therefore have no right to voice an opinion as your 3000 player doesn't sound any better than a more modestly priced model and yet you somehow convinced yourself that it does. 

Any digital player I mean ANY digital player will sound great assuming the actual audio-out circuit is constructed well enough to output all of the data that is on the disc.  I can pick up a really really good player for as little as 100 bucks.  Now of course if you want excessively large speakers (why?  do you have a hearing problem?) then you'll need amps and a dedicated eq and all that, but it'll still come out well under 1000 bucks.

[boykster]

Here's a tip to you guys.... if you've ever paid more than 1000 bucks for an audio system then you have a serious problem and therefore have no right to voice an opinion as your 3000 player doesn't sound any better than a more modestly priced model and yet you somehow convinced yourself that it does. 

Any digital player I mean ANY digital player will sound great assuming the actual audio-out circuit is constructed well enough to output all of the data that is on the disc.  I can pick up a really really good player for as little as 100 bucks.  Now of course if you want excessively large speakers (why?  do you have a hearing problem?) then you'll need amps and a dedicated eq and all that, but it'll still come out well under 1000 bucks.

So, you're telling me that you've demo'd every possible configuration of sources, amps, and speakers?  When you have, come back and post a real opinion.  While I don't subscribe to the philosophy that more expensive systems inherently sound better, I also disagree that it's "stupid" to spend more than a $1000 on an audio system.  I agree, that a properly designed and built digital (not analog mind you) source component can be had for a very reasonable price, but when it comes to pre-amps / processors / amplification there is a HUGE difference.  And more power is not about driving larger speakers or simply playing louder, it's about clarity without distortion, and resolution of sound at any volume.

I strongly subscribe to the "buy what sounds good" philosophy, hence my "downgrading" from a $3000+ AVR to a $300 one, but I was open minded enough to try it out. I've also listened to $30,000+ setups and literally had to pick my jaw up off of the the floor after demo'ing some material....would I spend that kind of money on an audio system?  No...is it dumb to do so?  No, not if you can afford it.

 

[pointdablame]

Some people just need to convince themselves that there is NEVER a difference between a $1000 audio setup and a $10,000 one... mostly because they are either cheap or too poor to afford it. 

I am with boykster in that more money definitely does not always mean better... and GREAT systems can be had for reasonable prices... but to say there is never a difference is pompous and very ignorant.  If you really can't hear the difference between a HTIB and an acoustically pure audio setup with high end components, go get your hearing checked.  I've been in rooms where the audio is so clear (please read that -- I didn't say LOUD) that you can't even tell the music is loud until you talk to someone next to them only to realize they can't hear you.  Something like that is an amazing auditory experience and really does make your jaw drop as boykster mentioned.

Also, in the scheme of things, $1000 in audio equipment is not even high end.  Many receivers top that price point, and most dedicated amps and preamps of decent quality will.  Even though you're the pillar of knowledge in every subject, I'd suggest that it is you howard who has no right to voice an opinion if you don't hear a difference.  Money is not always the answer, but to imply that more expensive components will never reproduce sound with more clarity and depth is completely absurd.

[ChadTower]

I fully believe that a $10,000 setup can sound better than a $1,000 setup.  No problem with that.

I also fully believe that outside of a professional setting there is never any reason to spend $10,000 on an audio setup.  The $10,000 setup cannot possibly be $9,000 better in home use.  If one is going to drop $10,000, rebuild the room instead, it will probably be more effective.

[pointdablame]

I fully believe that a $10,000 setup can sound better than a $1,000 setup.  No problem with that.

I also fully believe that outside of a professional setting there is never any reason to spend $10,000 on an audio setup.  The $10,000 setup cannot possibly be $9,000 better in home use.  If one is going to drop $10,000, rebuild the room instead, it will probably be more effective.

It all depends on your financial standing if you ask me.  I can't exactly quantify "$9000 better" but I've heard audio setups that put mine to shame, and certainly made me want it very badly.  In my current situation, I deal with what I have because a $10k stereo would be absurd and stupid, but if I were wealthy enough, sure... I'd drop that amount in a heartbeat.  And this was a home theater setup, not a professional setup.

Again, its a hard thing to say something is "10x better" when it comes to audio.  I absolutely believe that there is a point at which speakers and audio components becomes simply a way to prove how rich you are (go look at Wilson Audio speakers).  I've heard they sounds very good, but some of them are $200k, and that's far from the most expensive speakers you can buy... that's ludicrous.

Anyway, it's just one of those things that some people will never "get" and some people understand... but don't necessarily spend the money on.  I just hate when people make stupid blanket statements about how no audio equipment is ever worth more than $1k.

[ChadTower]

I can safely say that no audio equipment is never worth more than $1000.  Worth is a relative concept.  I will never see an AVR for which I would pay $1000.  It would be a true statement for me.  For you, a false statement, for sure.

For $10,000 it had better come with a room full of hot chicks to dance to the music.  Chicks that stay hot.

[pointdablame]

Of course worth is relative, and as you said, for you it's a true statement.  I have no expensive equipment right now, and for me right now I could never justify $1k on a component.  Hopefully in a few years, but for now it's just as absurd for me as it is for you, although for different reasons

You also have to consider your setup.  Howard mentioned grabbing an amp, EQ, and speakers, and it'd be "well under 1000 bucks"  I'd say that that is difficult if you are going for any amount of quality.

If you are buying a HTIB for a small room, you can do so for well under $1k.  If you are creating even a simple 2.1 component system with a receiver and speakers, $1k can happen fairly quickly.  If you are buying dedicated amps, preamps, and EQs, as well as speakers... $1k doesn't usually even get your foot in the door.  Add in the fact that most modern setups are 5.1 and you increase that even more.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that a stereo is only good if you spend crazy money on it.  I believe quite the opposite actually.  I'm just trying to say that like most things in life, there are varying levels of quality in components and varying levels of prices.  To say anything above $xxx is never worth it is stupid IMHO, and usually said by people who have little to no experience with those higher-end pieces.

[ChadTower]

For reference purposes, my AVR had something like a $700 MSRP but I bought it refurbed off the manufacturer for about a third of that. 

Can't remember the exact model #, I think it's this one, could be another in the 2xx series.  The 5.1 arrangement of speakers are all Cambridge Soundworks.

[pointdablame]

Just for the record, I love good deals.  I wait for sales and refurbs as well so I can get more for my money.  It's usually the only way I can afford anything heh 

For the purpose of this discussion though, your receiver is still a $700 component.  Despite what you paid, you still have a mid-range audio component.  My only point here is that you should be able to hear a discernible difference in clarity from your AVR and a $100 Aiwa receiver from WalMart or the like.

And just for disclosure's sake - I only have about $500 in audio equipment in my bedroom (if that).  I run a Pioneer receiver that is probably 8+ years old now and a set of Bose cubes that I absolutely despise.  For my 12x12 bedroom though, it sounds decent enough for the few movies I watch or video games I play in the room.  Because I can't get the components I'd like, my music listening has turned to my headphone amp and headphones until I have a bigger place and more money to play with.  I can get much better clarity with my headphones for a much more reasonable price.

[ChadTower]

Yeah, we upgraded to that from a $125-150 MSRP JVC AVR that came with the speakers in a store offer bundle (not HTIAB).  The step up from the JVC to that HK was startling and my wife actually blew a couple of the speakers one day when a power fluctuation hit while she had Miss Saigon at about 70dB.

I think the biggest difference for me, functionally, was the component video switching that this one has that the JVC did not.  That's the sort of thing that to me is worth more to upgrade for than the quality of sound when you factor in the size of the room in which the AVR sits.

I have a mid1960s GE receiver that puts both of them to absolute shame.  Obviously no remote or anything like that but this thing could break windows in another room if I wanted and still not distort.

[shardian]

From what I understand of TRUE audiophiles, they don't buy new products - they restore original equipment from the hi-fi days of 20-30 or so years ago. My father-in-law is a budding audiophile. He cruises goodwills to find stereo equipment. One time, he picked up a set of speakers from goodwill that he says are considered one of the best speakers ever built (no clue what the brand or model is right offhand). Anyways, he sent them off to an audiophile repair guy to have them "re-foamed".

The quality put into high end Hi-Fi components back then put to shame almost all off the shelf components of today. I used one of Onkyo Amps at my wedding reception, matched with a pair of older speakers holding 15" woofers. That setup filled the whole reception hall with crystal clear sound that was awesome. Going by the current day systems I am used to, I figured that the amp must have been pushing at least 100 watts to each speaker. I was shocked when he said it was a measly 35 watts/channel! For my birthday, he got me a 120 watt Sony amp from the early 80's I believe. I can't wait to build my jukebox so I can insert it as the driving force.

[ChadTower]

Yeah, if I could get my old GE to do 5.1, I'd be using that most of the time instead of the HK.  Even with old paper cones it sounds really really good.

[boykster]

I totally agree that there are zealots who have more money than sense and fully subscribe to the "if it costs more it MUST be better" philosophy...that's why Monster Cable exists, and monster cable makes CHEAP cables in the whole scheme of things.  You can buy high end speaker cables that are more than $100 a FOOT!!!  Of course, if you buy a $100,000 pre/pro seperates system you can't just use cheap zip cord, can you (yes, of course you can)?

It is all relative.  In my theater I have a $2000 projector that is very nice.  Are there nice projectors that cost double, triple, quadruple, etc more?  Yes...are they x times "better" than mine?  Not to me at the time I bought my projector, but to somebody else, maybe so.  Same thing with my AVR, at the time, a $3k Denon to me was "better" than anything else that I demo'd, and that included less expensive models.  I actually DIDN'T want to spend $3k on the AVR...i was shooting for under $1500 but couldn't find one that I really liked sonically.  I was able to demo these units in my theater (not just at the showroom), so I wasn't just upsold by them switching to better speakers, etc.  I demo'd in my theater with my equipment.  The more expensive model just sounded better to me.  Then along came the little panasonic $300 entry level AVR that blew away my Denon costing 10x as much.  Did I turn up my nose?  Nope, I bought one, demo'd it, even set it up for blind tests, and chose it.

I took a bath and sold my $3k Denon for about $2k on AVS, so I didn't do it to "save" money....

I compare any large purchase to buying a car.  Is someone who buys a Porsche or Ferrari wrong for buying a high performance car that can go 200mph when we live in a society where the max speed is capped at somewhere near 1/3 of that speed?  Is anyone that spends more than $15k on a car an idiot?  Nope.......personal choice and priorities.  

 

[ChadTower]

Which Panny is that?  Just curious.

[boykster]

From what I understand of TRUE audiophiles, they don't buy new products - they restore original equipment from the hi-fi days of 20-30 or so years ago.

Very very true of "2 channel" music guys...and push those numbers back as much as 50 years.  Multi channel audio has turned that on its ear, and most 2 channel guys despise the multi-channel worlds.  There is a new equipment market that specifically targets the 2 channel crowd....look at McIntosh amps and others.

I used to have a pair of Acoustic Research AR3a's.  At one point considered the absolute BEST speakers ever made.  Solid walnut cabinet, 3 way drivers, 15" VERY inefficient woofer, but absolutely wonderful sound.   Couldnt' even use them in the living room near my (then CRT) tv as they weren't magnetically shielded and they did bad things to the picture.....I donated them to a local speaker restoration shop...the old gent running the place was very pleased when he saw what I was bringing him.  I'm sure they've found a nice loving home by now.

[boykster]

Which Panny is that?  Just curious.

Panasonic SA-XR55 - pretty sure it's discontinuted but replaced with the SA-XR57 which is essentially the same thing but adds HDMI switching IIRC.

Very barebones AVR but has an absolutely CLEAN CLEAN CLEAN and moderately powerful digital amplification section.  The noise floor (white noise at low/no volume) is essentially zero, compared to a few db as measured from nearly every analog amplification system.

[ChadTower]

Now, given the commitment you just made to that piece, by selling off your existing receiver... are you worried about the construction quality dropoff?  I would imagine a $300 AVR doesn't have anywhere near the quality of power supply and other components outside of the digital amp.


EDIT:  Wow, $160

[pointdablame]

From what I understand of TRUE audiophiles, they don't buy new products - they restore original equipment from the hi-fi days of 20-30 or so years ago.

Very very true of "2 channel" music guys...and push those numbers back as much as 50 years.  Multi channel audio has turned that on its ear, and most 2 channel guys despise the multi-channel worlds.  There is a new equipment market that specifically targets the 2 channel crowd....look at McIntosh amps and others.

I used to have a pair of Acoustic Research AR3a's.  At one point considered the absolute BEST speakers ever made.  Solid walnut cabinet, 3 way drivers, 15" VERY inefficient woofer, but absolutely wonderful sound.   Couldnt' even use them in the living room near my (then CRT) tv as they weren't magnetically shielded and they did bad things to the picture.....I donated them to a local speaker restoration shop...the old gent running the place was very pleased when he saw what I was bringing him.  I'm sure they've found a nice loving home by now.

That's my father to a T.  He is a 2 channel guy and doesn't want to know anything about multichannel setups.. at least not for just music.  He's got a simple 5.1 setup in the living room, but the basement is acoustically set up for 2 channel. 

I grew up with him using only older equipment and was used to him shipping or driving stuff off to be rebuilt and refoamed.  He's had some McIntosh stuff in the past and currently uses a Phase Linear amp/pre-amp setup with some Ohm speakers.

Old or not, those components really do blow away most of today's stuff.  it's just amazing.  I love going downstairs to listen to music, and with his DAC, I can actually run modern stuff through it like my Ipod with decent quality.  He spends a good bit of time down there though, so I'm usually relegated to my headphone setup heh

[boykster]

Now, given the commitment you just made to that piece, by selling off your existing receiver... are you worried about the construction quality dropoff?  I would imagine a $300 AVR doesn't have anywhere near the quality of power supply and other components outside of the digital amp.


EDIT:  Wow, $160

I've had it in my theater for 18mos.  No issues with build quality etc.  And one of the MAJOR advantages of a digital amp section vs analog one is that it draws WAY less power and runs very very cool.  I have not had a single "failure event" with the new amp vs the Denon which would power itself down at least once a month due to overheating....and it was on a rack shelf with active cooling (fans) and a good 2 feet above it for ventilation.  The panny sits on a plain old rack shelf with something directly above it.

Heck, if it breaks, at such an inexpensive price I'll just buy another one.

 

EDIT:  Oh, and I've been very impressed with teh build quality of panasonic components.  All 3 of my plasmas are panasonic, as is my projector.  My oldest plasma did have a circuit board failure (which was repaired) but all other components have been performing nicely.

[ChadTower]

What I'd be afraid of is not that the AVR breaks but that the AVR fails in a way that it takes expensive speakers with it.

What is a "failure event"?  If it is what I think it may be, I wonder if that is what happened to my wife, taking a couple of satellites out of action.

The HK I use puts out a lot of hot air even when it's on but not doing more than video routing.

[shardian]

From what I understand of TRUE audiophiles, they don't buy new products - they restore original equipment from the hi-fi days of 20-30 or so years ago.

Very very true of "2 channel" music guys...and push those numbers back as much as 50 years.  Multi channel audio has turned that on its ear, and most 2 channel guys despise the multi-channel worlds.  There is a new equipment market that specifically targets the 2 channel crowd....look at McIntosh amps and others.

I used to have a pair of Acoustic Research AR3a's.  At one point considered the absolute BEST speakers ever made.  Solid walnut cabinet, 3 way drivers, 15" VERY inefficient woofer, but absolutely wonderful sound.   Couldnt' even use them in the living room near my (then CRT) tv as they weren't magnetically shielded and they did bad things to the picture.....I donated them to a local speaker restoration shop...the old gent running the place was very pleased when he saw what I was bringing him.  I'm sure they've found a nice loving home by now.

Well if that is the case, then I would reserve the term "audiophile" for the people that are involved in the audio components hobby. I don't think that people who only take the effort to throw down $10,000 without even truly knowing what they are buying should be considered.

I personally have no problems with people who can afford to throw down tons of money on an audio system. Shoot, if I had a million dollar house, I sure wouldn't be putting Wal-mart furniture in it, you know what I mean?

[ChadTower]

I wouldn't want a million dollar house.  I'd rather have a good one that suits my needs that is fully paid for and have the freedom of $750,000 earning 10%. 

 

[shardian]

I wouldn't want a million dollar house.  I'd rather have a good one that suits my needs that is fully paid for and have the freedom of $750,000 earning 10%. 

 

That's the thing. The kind of people who own million dollar houses don't look at a million dollars like you and I do. To them, it is the equivalent of us buying a moderate house in the 'burbs.

[boykster]

Yep, there are idiots who just throw around $$$ because they can, but to really experience the buying experience of a high end system, go find a good high-end showroom.  Heck, I was at Magnolia AV the other day buying a small sub-woofer to accompany a pair of in-wall speakers in my living room (for house music), and there was a gentleman contemplating purchasing some Martin Logan Summit speakers (MSRP of about $10k) - I purchased a ML Dynamo sub - so we were in the same room.  The guy demoing the ML Summit's had brought his OWN universal disc (SACD CD DVD-A) player and amp, and a plethora of discs to listen to.  The guy that rang me up said that the guy had been there about 10 times over the past 3 weeks, staying for an hour or two each time.

I'm sure most purchases are more impulse buy than that, and heck Mag AV isn't even that "high end" IMHO.  

[boykster]

What I'd be afraid of is not that the AVR breaks but that the AVR fails in a way that it takes expensive speakers with it.

What is a "failure event"?  If it is what I think it may be, I wonder if that is what happened to my wife, taking a couple of satellites out of action.

The HK I use puts out a lot of hot air even when it's on but not doing more than video routing.

by "failure event" I mean the AVR powers itself off.  Most newer AVRs and amps have an autoprotect circuit to avoid damaging your speakers and/or other components.  My Denon would occasionally shut down due to overheating or otherwise.  As for a power spike, I run all my equipment through a power conditioner, not to make stuff "sound better" as many people do, but just for simple protection of the circuitry by feeding everything clean power, and protecting from spikes.

I wouldn't want a million dollar house.  I'd rather have a good one that suits my needs that is fully paid for and have the freedom of $750,000 earning 10%. 

 

That's the thing. The kind of people who own million dollar houses don't look at a million dollars like you and I do. To them, it is the equivalent of us buying a moderate house in the 'burbs.

So much of that is relative also.  Where I live, a million dollar house most likely IS the moderate house in the 'burbs.

 

[shardian]

So much of that is relative also.  Where I live, a million dollar house most likely IS the moderate house in the 'burbs.
 

hehe, where I live, if you buy your clothes at Sears/Macy's/Lazarus, you are considered high class.

[ChadTower]

What?  Walmart cargo pants aren't good enough?   

[shardian]

What?  Walmart cargo pants aren't good enough?   

Not for the beamer SUV crowd.

[ChadTower]

The beamer SUV would not last in a confrontation with a 1979 Chevy pickup towing the owner's home.