Question for fitness types

[DrewKaree]

What a nut.  You're just having a ball today, aren't you?  It's like you have a whole sack of jokes...

Objection yer honor.  He's obviously leading the witness

[ChadTower]

I'm working the ol' humor speedbags.

[AtomSmasher]

I just asked my brother-in-law (Alywn Cosgrove) about metabolic typing and combat conditioning.  He knows more about exercising and dieting then everyone here combined and has written several books on the subject (including the one previously mentioned in this thread.)  Google him if you're curious of his credentials on this subject.

stuff in brackets is stuff I added

In regards to metabolic typing:

Rachel [my sister] is certified in it actually -- she's the best person to ask. [I will ask her about it later]
she doesn't use it too much. [referring to the nutrition programs people hire her to make for them]

it's premise is that - just as you have different favorite foods - and different genetics - ancestry etc - that you respond better to different macronutrient splits. I.E. Scottish people tended to develop close to water - so fish was a high percentage of their diet , an eskimo would be primarily fat and protein, an American Indian who lived in the plains would have been raised on mainly carbohydrate.

It has something to it, but I think the world has evolved a lot so it's not too valid.

In regards to Combat Conditioning, I referred to it as Mike Mahler's Combat Conditioning in the email I sent my brother-in-law since the article shorthair linked to was written by him, which explains the beginning of this quote:

I know Mike Mahler pretty well. He used to live in Santa Monica but lives in Vegas now -- he contributed to the liftstrong.com project. He's a "kettlebell" guy -- looks like cannonballs with a handle.

I think it was Matt Furey who wrote Combat Conditioning. It sucks -- it's really just bodyweight exercises that he did when he was a wrestler (he was an All American I think) but Furey is an internet marketing genius. I just bought some stuff of his as regards information marketing.

[KenToad]

Hmm, that's an interesting description of metabolic typing.  It reminds me that most of the population of the world and all other mammals stop producing lactase, the enzyme that breaks down milk protein, sometime around weaning.  But, despite that, most Northern Europeans and several other cultures have the relatively unique ability to continue to produce lactase throughout their whole lives.  It's funny because lactose intolerance after weaning is actually the norm and I guess that would be a good example of how different subsets of humans have evolved different ways of surviving/producing energy.

As far as combat conditioning, the great thing about excercise is that so many different types of excercises work so well.  The real challenge is mental.  That's why it pays to have a partner or a coach or a guy on the Internet marketing his product who can pump you up.  Speaking of which, I love the movie Pumping Iron.  It's really hilarious and it really gets me in the mood to workout. 

Arnold sits on the couch, describes the pump as being like an orgasm and says:  "So can you imagine what kind of heaven I am in?  I go to the gym and I am coming.  I come home and I am coming.  I am coming all the time."  This is also the movie where he smokes a joint at the end. 

 

[lokki]

I gotcha.  I only mentioned the info above because my wife brought some "instant" crap home, and not only did it have "flavorings" instead of tea, but sugar was the first ingredient listed, which is what I was trying to avoid.  Brewing tea needs some testing.  Some tastes like ass if you follow the directions, and it also makes a difference of where it came from.  My local grocery store has their own version of green tea, and I found out it's got a bunch of other crap in it and it ends up tasting burnt no matter how I make it, so I ended up ditching 3/4 of a box. 

Thanks for the tips I will give Brewed tea another try. 

[shorthair]

That's weird that Mike would move to Vegas. But I don't know him that well. He's always moving upward, spiritually, I think, so go figure. However, why would conditioning suck? What does 'it's really just bodyweight exercises that he did when he was a wrestler' mean? Has he tried them?...like, as a serious routine?...let alone studied them? He doesn't give any qualifiers. He also doesn't reflect on Mahler's article on them. That Furey is a marketing genius has nothing to do with CC - except insofar as he was able to bring the product to market. I at least gave technical qualifiers on why it's good. Cosgrove doesn't even give a vague alternative. But that's why he makes money at it. Hmmm..... Also, and Furey talks about this, why would being good in one thing mean it doesn't translate to other things?...except the wrestling - and martial arts and grappling - came before the internet marketing, etc...

These are serious questions.


As for metabolic typing, if we look at how long things take to evolve: hundreds of millenia as meat eaters, some millenia of gradual introduction of dairy and agriculture, respectively, which shows why there are so many protein types, only a few decades of garbage food culture.... Evolution is against him.


Oop, except look what I, just looking around for a minute, found on Mahler's site:

http://www.mikemahler.com/articles/cosgrove1.html

Your body is a barbell

No dumbbells, no barbells, no problem

By Alwyn Cosgrove


In fact when you think about it, the only reason to ever use external load (i.e. weights) is because your bodyweight is not enough resistance.

[Glaine]

Well, I like Earl Gray tea and this tea called Constant Complement that has orange rind in it. Green Tea is for tourists trying to look cool, or maybe it's a developed taste like people who can drink black coffee.

As for typing, I still like The Typing of the Dead.

[AtomSmasher]

That's weird that Mike would move to Vegas. But I don't know him that well. He's always moving upward, spiritually, I think, so go figure. However, why would conditioning suck? What does 'it's really just bodyweight exercises that he did when he was a wrestler' mean? Has he tried them?...like, as a serious routine?...let alone studied them? He doesn't give any qualifiers. He also doesn't reflect on Mahler's article on them. That Furey is a marketing genius has nothing to do with CC - except insofar as he was able to bring the product to market. I at least gave technical qualifiers on why it's good. Cosgrove doesn't even give a vague alternative. But that's why he makes money at it. Hmmm..... Also, and Furey talks about this, why would being good in one thing mean it doesn't translate to other things?...except the wrestling - and martial arts and grappling - came before the internet marketing, etc...

These are serious questions.


As for metabolic typing, if we look at how long things take to evolve: hundreds of millenia as meat eaters, some millenia of gradual introduction of dairy and agriculture, respectively, which shows why there are so many protein types, only a few decades of garbage food culture.... Evolution is against him.


Oop, except look what I, just looking around for a minute, found on Mahler's site:

http://www.mikemahler.com/articles/cosgrove1.html

Your body is a barbell

No dumbbells, no barbells, no problem

By Alwyn Cosgrove


In fact when you think about it, the only reason to ever use external load (i.e. weights) is because your bodyweight is not enough resistance.

I asked him if he could just quickly give me his thoughts on it, which is what he did. I'm sure he could go on and on about exactly why the book sucks, but the short version is just that it sucks.  I do enjoy that fact that you think you know much more about exercising and nutrition then him, what are your qualifications on the subject again?

edit* also, you mention how he didn't reflect on the article or anything you said about it, thats because I didn't point him to the article or tell him anything you said about it.  He's a busy guy which is why I only asked for his brief thoughts on the topics.

[AtomSmasher]

I just got a reply from my sister on the topic of Metabolic Typing:

I took the certification to do metabolic typing and learned all about it. There is definitely something to it but basically all it means is that each person is an individual- some people do well on high protein/ high fat such as Atkins, others do well on high carb /low fat such as Vegetarian but most people when I tested them ended up right down the middle and did best on a balanced 40/30/30 type menu such as The Zone.

The other premise of the diet is whole foods- no processed foods. This is huge for most people. If people just eliminate processed junk food they will feel a lot better anyway.

[shorthair]

Okay, I goofed on the Mahler article part. As for MT, I wouldn't characterise it that way at all. According to MT, almost all people should eat some form of animal protein. What differentiates is the type and amount, as well as the types of fat they can consume, along with the types of carbs, though vegetable carbs are emphasised for all. Also, the types of vegetables people can eat depends. It doesn't sound like he's got it down.

I do agree with his statment on processed foods. (However, a lot of people don't know how to define that.) I also think the two articles of his I read (one was that linked) at Mahler's were keen. Neither of you have addressed the contradiction of the linked article and his statements (let alone his new book). As well, the concept of the linked article is keen - but some of the exercises are more complicated than CC, as well as requiring gear, and none are as comprehensive. Go look back at those pictures in the Mahler article, try a hindu push-up, and come tell me what you think.

As for credentials, did Einstein have credentials before he made certain discoveries? No, I bet that one'll just make you howl. Okay: did Mahler have any credentials besides his ket certification before he started training people? Big flat no. He says so, too. 'He comes from the school of hardknocks....'

The first point is: what is the most functional?

The next point is: why are you (whoever it is) sitting around making a fuss when all you have to do is get off your ass for a moment and try it? This is byoac, right?

[AtomSmasher]

Okay, I goofed on the Mahler article part. As for MT, I wouldn't characterise it that way at all. According to MT, almost all people should eat some form of animal protein. What differentiates is the type and amount, as well as the types of fat they can consume, along with the types of carbs, though vegetable carbs are emphasised for all. Also, the types of vegetables people can eat depends. It doesn't sound like he's got it down.

My last reply was from my sister, who is a nutritionist with certificates and degrees in pretty much everything related to nutrition, including being certified in MT.  She writes nutrition and exercise programs for a living, and I can be fairly confident she understands MT much better then you do.  I'm sure you'll completely disagree with that since you just compared yourself to Einstein and seem to think your better at everything then everyone else.  The funny thing is, she agrees with you that MT isn't a bogus diet, and yet you still want to argue with her.

[AtomSmasher]

I sent Alywn your first response to what he said (so the reponse before the last one) and I just got an email back from him:

I said "combat conditioning" sucks.
I didn't say "Bodyweight training" sucks.
They' aren't the same thing. And he isn't able to see that I guess. Oh well...

(incidentally - I think I said this before -- Mike Mahler is a kettlebell guy -- he hasn't done "combat conditioning" since 2001). That speaks volumes.

That Furey is a marketing genius has nothing to do with CC - except insofar as he was able to bring the product to market. I at least gave technical qualifiers on why it's good. Cosgrove doesn't even give a vague alternative.

That made me laugh. 

But that's why he makes money at it. Hmmm..... Also, and Furey talks about this, why would being good in one thing mean it doesn't translate to other things?...except the wrestling - and martial arts and grappling - came before the internet marketing, etc...
 
These are serious questions.

That made me laugh too.

Oop, except look what I, just looking around for a minute, found on Mahler's site:
 
http://www.mikemahler.com/articles/cosgrove1.html
 
Your body is a barbell
 
No dumbbells, no barbells, no problem
 
By Alwyn Cosgrove

In fact when you think about it, the only reason to ever use external load (i.e. weights) is because your bodyweight is not enough resistance.

Again he's confused bodyweight training with combat conditioning (which uses bodyweight) -- not the same thing.

Weight training is good. a ---smurf-poop--- weight training program sucks. And the fact that the second one uses the same equipment as the first does not in any way redeem it. Curves uses weights after all...

I sell a bodyweight training DVD. I've written several bodyweight training articles. Bodyweight is not the problem with combat conditioning....

For your information (but I'm sure you can't be bothered with this) combat conditioning isn't even a program. It's a book of 3 exercises and their variations - hindu push ups, hindu squats and back bridges. Progression? Do more. Increase load? Umm you can't unless you gain weight ...

I responded with,
I asked him if he could just quickly give me his thoughts on it, which is what he did. I'm sure he could go on and on about exactly why the book sucks,

Yes. I'm pretty boring like that.

but the short version is just that it sucks.  I do enjoy that fact that you think you know much more about exercising and nutrition then him, what are your qualifications on the subject again?

the thing that all these guys who talk ---Cleveland steamer--- on the internet NEVER seem to get -- Rach and I make money from training people. I get paid for writing programs, and writing articles etc about training. We get paid to get people in shape fast. We use the fastest methods we know of. We don't give a ---Cleveland steamer--- what those methods are -- if combat conditioning worked better than what we do -- then that's what we'd use - because it would make us more money right?. We don't care what we use -- we use the best methods that we've found.
Combat conditioning didn't make the cut.

What's funny though is that I watched the DVD today about marketing (from Matt Furey - the guy who came up with Combat conditioning - that Mike Mahler wrote about) -- he uses his combat conditioning as an example -- and talks about how it is about 3 pages of intro and then just a bunch of exercises...one page is a photo of the exercise, the facing page is 'how to' do the exercise and that it wasn't that good - he didn't think that it would sell --  but people bought it because of his marketing skills and ability to write sales copy!

(he also speaks about his first book - the martial art of wrestling -- that didn't sell AT ALL -- until he repackaged it as an 'underground special report' -- I told you he was a genius at marketing).

Does that clear anything up for you?  Even the creator of CC admits in his marketing video that he didn't think CC was good enough to sell.

[shorthair]

You mistake the Einstein thing, and then fixated on it. Ego. I'm not saying I know more than he does. I know I don't have the same amount of experience and such. Never said I did. As well with your sister. What I did say is CC is outstanding (and that I think he's wrong - and that he is totally wrong about the body-weight exercises vs CC thing), as well as MT not being what your sister made it out to be. I did forget to mention that there isn't a standard with MT. After reading the original book, I went online and looked up stuff about it. I found all kinds of groups and stuff using the name, but using altered methodologies - like if they were packaging it for a particular audience.

Which brings me to the the marketing thing: people find an audience and then find the best way to market it to them. This is because people are fickle. It doesn't necessarily at all measure the effectiveness of the product, just that they were able to get people to buy it. And, no, Furey didn't say the exericse wasn't that good, but that the layout of that page wasn't good. That's the way your bro said it, anyway. Although, I have to mention, he writes much more impressively in an article where he might have a lot more time to think about the content and proof read it an all.

Back on CC and training: actually, there are ways to increase resistance without using weights. (I'll tell ya if you wanna know.) And speed is often not a decent (I know he didn't say it was the only) criterion to base a training regimen on - but it would be for his audience. I still say these are the best all-around exercises, but regardless notice he doesn't use just a couple-few, let alone one. He uses several. And, he's right, CC isn't a program. We're not talking about programs, here. DUH.

And, no, that Mahler doesn't do conditioning anymore say anything, necessarily. That he doesn't lift anymore, and for years say anything? Not necessarily, cos he could just be obsessed with kettlebells. He still links the CC article. He wouldn't if he thought of them even closely to what your bro does. No, the reason Mahler does mostly kettlebells (not only, cos he does do lighter, in-between conditioning, as well as mentions it in his newsletter workouts and stuff) is cos he thinks they're the most effective tool for his purposes. They're the only gear of that kind I recommend. But his level of training is so far above most people that it isn't even funny. He trains smart, but he trains intensely.

Bottom line: I know what I do works. It'll work for anybody, with less work than anything else, and at least as comprehensively as anything else. All my own experience and those I've trained confirm this. If I find something better, I'll - as your bro says - use that instead. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I haven't found it. I haven't seen it in the little I've seen of his. But he and I are different: he has a goal, or goals, in mind. I have aspirations to be a certain way. He is gain-oriented. I'm process-oriented.

[Buddabing]

Do you have rampant sexual energy?

As a married man, I do not have sex.

[jbox]

as well as MT not being what your sister made it out to be. I did forget to mention that there isn't a standard with MT. After reading the original book, I went online and looked up stuff about it. I found all kinds of groups and stuff using the name, but using altered methodologies - like if they were packaging it for a particular audience.

So people can all have different takes on what it means, except her? Just want to double check the logic here...

[AtomSmasher]

You mistake the Einstein thing, and then fixated on it. Ego.

You took my comment about your comment on Einstein and fixated on it.  It was obvious you have a huge ego long before this thread even started, let alone before you compared yourself to Einstein.

I forwarded the rest of your reply to Alywn and he may or may not reply.  I told him not to worry about replying since your obviously obsessed with CC, but he generally likes getting into debates, so he probably will.

[Glaine]

Nuff said.

[shorthair]

Glaine: in general?

AS: being a nitwit doesn't help, here. I'll explain your ego fault, there: you perceived and assumed there was only one meaning to what you read. The meaning I had, however, was: you respect Einstein, right?...but he had no credentials. I wasn't at all comparing myself. For that matter, I didn't discover any of this. Neither did Furey - he says so. So you just masturbated, there.

You should tell Alwyn to come and create an account so he doesn't have to use you as his poor-boy medium. I've had a distinct advantage in this discussion so far: I have as much time as I wish to discuss it. I'm not bound by economic boundaries on my time, effort, and product. I discuss things from a technical point of view. As technical as I know, as well as as technical as is necessary. I also don't need to laugh at comments and then avoid them. Come round, come round....

Buddabing: too funny. And that's too bad if true...though, I didn't talk about having sex, but sexual energy, which is what fundamentally powers and enables us. It's really simple: lifestyle.

[Buddabing]

Buddabing: too funny. And that's too bad if true...though, I didn't talk about having sex, but sexual energy, which is what fundamentally powers and enables us. It's really simple: lifestyle.

That was just a joke. My comment about Californians eating bean sprouts and tofu was a joke, too.

Please keep discussions in this thread civil.

[ChadTower]

Seriously, dude has sex...



...don't tell his wife though

[KenToad]

Well, just to continue in the turn this thread has taken ...

Metabolic typing is interesting to think about, but it would take a lot more than having cooked meat as part of our diet for however long (millennia? No one can really say) to show that everyone or nearly everyone should eat animal protein.  For example, we are the only primates who consume a significant amount of meat protein for food.  Chimpanzees are known to kill and hunt ritualistically and eat some bugs, but there has never been more than 5 percent animal protein found in chimpanzee poo.  No other great apes eat animals.  Mountain gorillas even spurn the hunt in favor of roots and mold.  And they are way stronger than us proportionally, not to mention that they die of far fewer preventable diseases.  The idea that meat has somehow made us smarter is wishful thinking and totally unsupportable.  

The biological evidence right now is that we share more than 90% of our DNA with many species of Great Apes and that our digestive systems look nearly identical.  Metabolic typing cannot explain the shape and function of our highly evolved digestive tracts, which, for example, are very different from the smoother, shorter, colons of either carnivores or omnivores.

Regarding the protein argument, few nutritionists cite the fact that protein must be broken down into its basic parts, amino acids, to be utilized by the body.  Amino acids are found in a wide range of non-animal foods.  The general argument that the most complete, i.e. the protein with the most similar structure to our own, is found in meat, has been debunked in a lot of ways, everything from Francis Moore Lappe's old-school protein combining revelation (Diet for a Small Planet) to the simple realization that vegetarians in many cultures thrive without the "necessary" protein from meat.  I find it funny to think that that old protein like our own argument seems to suggest that cannabilism would be the best way to get protein, since it would be identical to that already found in our building blocks.

So, I'm not trying to convince anyone that any one way of living is best--just that these are complicated issues and it's best to study many different arguments and make your own decisions about how to balance the practical with the ideal.

And, yes, I am a lifelong vegetarian, vegan for the first 12 years of my life.  Let me reiterate that I realize that nothing that I have written above is without some form of dispute.  These are very complicated issues for very complicated organisms such as ourselves and who would I be to absolutely recommend one thing or another to anyone else.

Peace, health and happiness to all.  

[ChadTower]

Psst - I think there's meat in beer.

[shorthair]

Chad, that's not making either of you look good. kee kee kee kee

That was just a joke. My comment about Californians eating bean sprouts and tofu was a joke, too.

Please keep discussions in this thread civil.

Can be hard to tell...plus I'm sorta serious about fitness an all. And, what do you mean? Those words were classifications: the first indicating the silliness of his behavior; the second indicating the silliness of his position in the discussion. The only emotional component in the usage for me is in relation to how those factors affect the quality of the discussion.


Ken: I think MT is simpler than that. 1) we've been eating meat - most of the time raw - for hundreds of millenia. It's in the fossil record. 2) MT is about oxidation. Being a protein type, as well as having done the veg thing, I know what my body is more satisfied with. 3) as mentioned in that other thread, some people can do veg, even vegan, whom I suspect are carb types. They can subsist on vegetable proteins - not soy so much as legumes and peas - as long as they get enough fat. Otherwise, they're generally undernourished and look it. Hell, Mahler's a vegan - I bet he's a carb type.

Cool that you're cool-headed about this. Thanks.

[ChadTower]

Chad, that's not making either of you look good. kee kee kee kee

 

[Buddabing]

what do you mean?

Actually, I was referring to your comment to AtomSmasher:

AS: being a nitwit doesn't help, here. I'll explain your ego fault, there: you perceived and assumed there was only one meaning to what you read. The meaning I had, however, was: you respect Einstein, right?...but he had no credentials. I wasn't at all comparing myself. For that matter, I didn't discover any of this. Neither did Furey - he says so. So you just masturbated, there.

IMO the name-calling and masturbation references don't belong here.

[shorthair]

Yeah, Buddabing, I explained that. The masturbation comment is....what? We are big boys here, yes? Think carefully.


Chad:

Posted by: ChadTower  Posted on: Today at 09:45:11 AM 
Insert Quote 

Seriously, dude has sex...


jbox: no. it was implicit that her experience is with one of these other groups and that they all are at odds with the book. I follow the book....THE BOOK....

[ChadTower]

Yeah, Buddabing, I explained that masturbation is....what? We are big boys here, yes?

[CheffoJeffo]

I explained that masturbation is....what? We are big boys here, yes?

Now Chad's getting more to the meat of things, here.

[ChadTower]

Yeah, Buddabing, I explained that masturbation is....what? We are big boys here, yes?

Now Chad's getting more to the meat of things, here.

That was just icing meant to provoke a response.

[CheffoJeffo]

I explained that masturbation is....what? We are big boys here, yes?

Now Chad's getting more to the meat of things, here.

That was just icing meant to provoke a response.

How come not everyone has this happen to them? 

[AtomSmasher]

I said that I thought you had a huge ego long before the Einstein comment, so to me that comment was just seemed like par for the course.  Maybe I interpreted it wrong, but that really has no bearing on this argument.  Credentials don't always mean a lot, but it's pretty hard to find anyone who is good in any field who doesn't have them.  I'm sure there are exceptions to the rule, but it's unlikely that the greatest training mind on the planet is going to be on an arcade building forum...
Besides, Einstein was pretty well credentialed in all honesty. Poor example.

Alwyn is not going to come here and start an account to debate you on the subject because he really couldn't care less about your questions.  He gets asked fitness questions all the time and web sites generally pay him to come to their site and answer some questions, the only reason he gave you any response at all is because I was the one that asked him about it.  He did just send me an email back, but it doesn't answer any questions for you.  Heres an excerpt:

At a seminar last year I offered to bet a year's mortgage to anyone who could get a faster result than I could when training someone. No takers....

The internet is interesting.
How can you disagree with someone who is CERTIFIED in that diet?  Especially when they are agreeing with you!

One of the websites I write for, used to have a comments section under each article. It got ridiculous -- I mean you had dr's with multiple degrees in physiology getting reamed by nameless guys on the internet. Dr John Berardi says X. Godzilla23 says "He is wrong!".

One of my friends was interviewed and one of the responses was "who the ---fudgesicle--- has he trained? Until I see some results I'm not listening to anything this tool says" My friend had worked with 3 Olympic teams and has 25 years experience. The poster? 14 years old.

Everyone is fine with criticism -- but it has to come from someone with at least some experience in the field.

This magazine eventually pulled the comments section and ran the articles separately from the forum because it was terrible.

I think there are some guys who honestly don't really disagree, or have any real issues. I honestly think they post to see if they can start a fight or get a response. Like this guy - Rachel agrees with him and he takes a shot at her.

So I just don't respond.

Also, you probably didn't notice, but I didn't make any responses for or against MT or CC before I asked my brother-in-law.  The reason I asked him about them is because most people here don't really know what they are (including myself) and I happen to have an expert on the subject on speed dial.  I thought it would benefit the discussion to get some informed feedback on the topics.  Feel free to disagree with them if you want, but I'm betting most people will side with a professional trainer and nutritionist over you.

[ChadTower]

Yeah, Buddabing, I explained that masturbation is....what? We are big boys here, yes?

Now Chad's getting more to the meat of things, here.

That was just icing meant to provoke a response.

How come not everyone has this happen to them? 

Speaking of which, I love the movie Pumping Iron.

[Buddabing]

Both of you please take my name out of those quotes.

Thanks.

[CheffoJeffo]

Think I got 'em all in mine.

[shorthair]

That's cool, AS. I wasn't dissing anybody. I just stated my experience and my opinion. From my experience, CC and MT (and Blood typing) are effective. I think a lot of things are effective; a lot of things Alwyn does. As speed is never an issue for me, I think what I do works best for the way I want to be. It sure doesn't suck. (When talking about training, I don't use such words, cos they're often perceived - if not meant - as opinionated, vs assessing.) As for jumping on your sister's initial comment, it's in quotes so it appears like Alwyn is talking about his sister, and then it looks like he goes on and talks about it. But like I said, it didn't seem the same as the source I'd experienced, which I assumed the book was definitive as it was by the guy who discovered it.

On Einstein: maybe I remember wrong, but I think he had barely graduated from college before he discovered relativity. Some credentials, but according to the story sorta inconsequential. At one point, some time near then or later, he went to Bohr, I think, with what he had and Bohr told him it was a brilliant idea but needed cleaning up, so advised E to bone up on his math. Again, I wasn't comparing myself, just mentioning an example of something I presumed you put faith in. I agree on the credentials thing, mostly. It can go both ways.

Definitely nothing against you, or Alwyn or your sister. We're just different.

[KenToad]

I was wondering when something I said would make the quote-fu cut.   

Atomsmasher, not to be disrespectful, but Alwyn is not really being very specific in many regards.  Where he is being specific, it seems like there could be multiple interpretations, like when he mentions that the guy who created the Combat Conditioning didn't think it would sell because it wasn't that good.  Well, it could be that the layout wasn't that good or the writing wasn't that good or just that it didn't really have a predetermined niche in the market.  Or maybe he was just saying that in order to pump up his own ability to market stuff (like, oh yeah that book was total crap, but, with my marketing abilities I was able to make it a bestseller and, if you follow these easy steps, you can too).  I think it's unwise to cross the logic line and say that the guy who came up with the 3 excercises of combat conditioning doesn't think they're all that good.  At least, that's my interpretation without having actually seen the DVD.

Also, Alwyn is pushing that I'm an expert and I make money stuff just a little too far.  I also don't understand his rationale about the "fastest" method.  I guess he gets paid by the hour and that's how he sells his workout.  It's marketing speak if I've ever heard it.  Some bodies are more easily trainable than others and a lot of that is psychological.  If he doesn't want to explain himself, then why spend so long touting his own expertise and marketability? 

That said, he also just doesn't sound like the type of guy who likes to argue on the Internet, since he keeps referring to the Internet as if it were an alien planet or something.  Yeah, we all get dissed by the 14-year-olds sometimes.  It's nice that you respect him so much and defend his opinions so vigorously.

But, we aren't all 14, so I think Shorthair's point was that it's a little unfair to bring a third-party into a discussion and then to just say that you should appreciate his input simply because he's an expert.

[AtomSmasher]

Just thought I'd mention that Rachel is his wife and my sister.  If you notice before the first quote I posted, "stuff in brackets is stuff I added", it was to help you and others better understand an email addressed to me.  I can see how it could be confusing though and I probably should of done it differently.  The second quote I gave about MT was from my sister who knows a bit more about nutrition then Alywn.

KT: He was writing the responses to me (not to shorthair directly) which is probably why he wasn't very specific.  I don't know much about the specifics of what are good exercises, or what makes a good workout routine and he knows that.  He was also most likely just quickly giving the responses off the top of his head.  I'm sure he could go into more detailed responses, but that would also take a lot more time to do.

As for him pushing he's an expert and getting the "fastest" results.  These days the only people he personally trains are professional athletes, so if the people he trained didn't see results superior (faster) to their previous trainer, they would quit and he wouldn't be getting paid at all.  Most of his time now is actually spent going to gyms across the country where they hired him to come and teach their trainers how to be better at what they do.  A few years ago the trainers used to come to him and pay a lot of money to essentially be interns at his gym just to learn from him, even though they often owned their own gym.  If he wasn't very good, he wouldn't be in very high demand.

I said that he generally likes to debate, which I'm fairly sure he does, but I've only ever seen him debate in real life.  This is the first time I've ever drawn him even partially into an internet debate which he apparently doesn't care much for.  Its not exactly surprising that any other attempts of online debating he's done was filled with trolls though.

Someone else on the forum actually brought his name up first, talking about how much they liked his book, so it's not like I brought him up out of the blue.  I assumed people here would appreciate hearing what someone highly respected in the physical fitness world had to say on the subject, but if I was wrong, then so be it.  I apologize for trying to bring an informed objective opinion to this discussion.  If I was trying to steamroll shorthair, then why would I put that they agreed that there is something to MT.

[shorthair]

I think there's two reasons for 'fast results': time and money, and sports training (often sharing beds). I'm not alluding to anything about those when I say, I've never been interested in them. My interest is in being fit according to a broader set of criteria, and being able to easily - as in the simplest set of information possible - pass this on to whomever I'm interacting with. For humanity to be mindful, which would include physical fitness, it would make for a distinct change in human civilization. A better one.

Ken: I think Alwyn's button got pushed...but he made that up in his last response. It was much more collected. As well, AS got a little enthralled in the 'who's the expert' thing. Not a big deal, not germane to the discussion, which is why I didn't bring it up or flesh it out.

[KenToad]

Ok, yeah, I had sort of forgotten that someone else had already brought him up, although I remember going "whoah" when I read that you had actually informed him of our discussion, at least partially. 

I also agree that shorthair was, ahem, splitting hairs how your sister responded, although I think what he was reacting to was the dismissive tone of what your sister wrote about metabolic typing.  And Alwyn's reaction that "how can you disagree with someone who is certified in that field" just doesn't strike me as a debate-worthy statement, nor a serious response, but we already talked about that.  I have to say: I'm kind of dismissive about typing, too, in that it doesn't interest me enough to research it.  I'm with PatrickL that too much of anything doesn't really work. 

Unfortunately, more complexity lies in that things are wrongly classified, such as candy and other such nutritionless objects being classified as food.  So, that moderation argument gets knocked around a lot without regard to the reality that certain things should not be consumed at all by people who want to lead energetic, healthy lives. 

Also, I've not really researched it heavily, but I've heard that the nutritional values of foods dramatically change after cooking.  That's mainly espoused by raw foodists, but it means that it could be that nutrition facts, etc. are calculated for pre-cooked foods and in fact are completely wrong.

So, how much raw meat do you eat, shorthair?

[Demon-Seed]

Hey
Yea those devices they use are not always accurate.. I usually have a six pack and mine is all over the map. I eat clean very clean.

Bottom line is you have to diet. Not sure what the trainer said but you can do all the training in the world if you dont eat clean your wasting alot of time. ehehe I say this as I down my post workout protein shake with oatmeal eheh...sersiously working out is 99 % diet. really is. even if you didnt work out and diet you would lean out. Look at those super obese guys on tv..they sit in bed do dick all..but they lose hundres just by diet.

anyways I am a avant weightlifter, runner etc.. if I can help you let me know..... not to brag but I went from 220 to 165 in a matter of months...no steady at 190...some say i should compete but i just love to train and be healthy...

anyways good luck
Jim