Main Restorations Software Audio/Jukebox/MP3 Everything Else Buy/Sell/Trade
Project Announcements Monitor/Video GroovyMAME Merit/JVL Touchscreen Meet Up Retail Vendors
Driving & Racing Woodworking Software Support Forums Consoles Project Arcade Reviews
Automated Projects Artwork Frontend Support Forums Pinball Forum Discussion Old Boards
Raspberry Pi & Dev Board controls.dat Linux Miscellaneous Arcade Wiki Discussion Old Archives
Lightguns Arcade1Up Try the site in https mode Site News

Unread posts | New Replies | Recent posts | Rules | Chatroom | Wiki | File Repository | RSS | Submit news

  

Author Topic: what kind of monitor do I have  (Read 4401 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

oddsock

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5
  • Last login:August 31, 2003, 03:25:40 pm
  • I want my own arcade controls!
what kind of monitor do I have
« on: April 15, 2003, 03:49:21 pm »
I bought a JAMMA cabinet a while ago which currently had the game "Superman" in it.  I bought a JPAC and converted it to a MAME cabinet and noticed that alot of the games displayed correctly (proper resolution), but the colors were all wrong, or rather there weren't enough.  It's like when you put windows into 16 or 256 color mode, everything just looks bad color-wise.. So I wanted to try to find out what the capabilities of this monitor really are...I have not been able to find any markings that seem to be a model number, so I'm wondering if there is a general place to look for this info.  it's a 19in monitor.  Certain games show perfect color (galaga, Joust) but most (if not all) of the neo-geo games show very inaccurate colors (again, like windows in 16 or 256 color mode).

based off the info provided here (I can provide more too :)) does anyone know what kind of monitor I have (ovbiously a brand name is probably out, more like capabilities)...?

thanks much..

oddsock

MameFan

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re:what kind of monitor do I have
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2003, 04:07:56 pm »
Can you post a picture of (any or preferably all):

- The back and or back/top of the electronics board attached to the monitor frame (aka "chassis")

- Any labels attached to or around (on a metal shield?) the tube itself, on the back side.


With the picture of the chassis I should be able to tell you the model # and point you towards references. However that may not address the color problems you're having.  My guess is it's a video card/direct draw/mame issue more so than anything else, but I could be wrong.

Also, I am not into NeoGeo games, but are they also standard res (eg 240x320) or are they medium res (eg 640x480?).  If so, they use 2 different types of monitors, and either Mame is trying to switch to it and the monitor is compensating as best it can or Mame is trying to downgrade it to the lower res, and thus reducing the color pallete?  

Or if resolution is not an issue, perhaps NeoGeo uses a larger color pallete (eg 4096?) than the classic games (256).  Are there options to improve dithering on those? I don't own a JPac so don't know what it can support, but that's something to look into.  (Check mame.dk for info on # of colors used, and try non-neo-geo games that use the same color pallete size and see if they exhibit the same problems.

tom61

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 495
  • Last login:September 18, 2017, 12:46:56 am
Re:what kind of monitor do I have
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2003, 05:06:04 pm »
I'm betting on the video card and/or it's configuration being the issue. Sounds like it might not be going to correct color depth for Neo Geo games. What video card and drivers/software are you using.

Another possibility (less likely than the video) is the color purity on monitor is misaligned, and you just notice the colors being off more in high-color games. I can't remember the URL for it, but there is a guide for adjusting the color purity. It's very time-consuming from what I remember, so only do it if you've eliminated the video card as the problem.

An arcade monitor doesn't have a color depth limit, since it is analog, so that's not what's causing the problems.

oddsock

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5
  • Last login:August 31, 2003, 03:25:40 pm
  • I want my own arcade controls!
Re:what kind of monitor do I have
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2003, 10:05:33 am »
thanks for the replys, I was able to take a better look at the cabinet from behind (not as easy as you might think :)) but was unable to get any good pictures (my webcam is really bad and I don't have a digital camera) so I whipped up a diagram of what I saw (and am also including a fuzzy picture of what the back of the monitor looks like).

One thing I noticed is what looked like a homemade breadboard screwed into the side of the cabinet (fuzzy picture also included - Picture 2).  The wires that come out of the monitor electronics board are connected right into this board and it's definately a homemade job.  Any idea what this is doing ? The wires that go into are all white, and the wires coming out are Red Green and Blue. Here are the numbers on the chip :

7404N
FEH3567
8813VB

also, I am using an ArcadeVGA card from Ultimarc for the video card.  So I don't think it's a problem with the video card configuration, and I saw this same effect (lack of colors) with another ATI video card that I was using before I got the arcadeVGA. (I was hoping the arcadeVGA might fix this problem actually).

lastly, on the suggestion of Mamefan, I looked up the color counts on the games that display perfectly, and those that dont.  It seems that anything above 256 definately does not display perfectly and those < 256 do.  I only spot checked a few games, but enough to see the pattern.

thanks again for any help on this issue. :)

Images :

Diagram - http://www.oddsock.org/arcade/Drawing1.jpg
Picture 1 - http://www.oddsock.org/arcade/Picture1.jpg
Picture 2 - http://www.oddsock.org/arcade/Picture2.jpg

oddsock
« Last Edit: April 16, 2003, 10:08:34 am by oddsock »

MameFan

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re:what kind of monitor do I have
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2003, 12:49:20 pm »
AHA!  We have information! (and a possible clue(s) to your problems!--I think)

First of all, the monitor APPEARS to be a Sanyo 20EZ monitor.  The part # you got from the tube that starts with 51 is a good clue. (51 = 51 centimeter diameter tube = 20", whereas MOST arcade monitors start with A48 = 48 centimeter=19" tube).   Also from your picture, only the Sanyo 20EZ monitor has a strange dual U-shaped braket framing. Most others have solid side pieces followed by a sheet between them, the Sanyo uses 2 brackets that surround the neck (to better protect it) but it's got nothing on the sides.

Here are a couple pictures of the Sanyo monitors.. Take a look and I'm sure you'll be able to tell if it's the same or not:
http://www.dameon.net/BBBB/20ez.html
http://www.arcaderestoration.com/index.asp?OPT=3&DATA=4&CBT=3


Okay, to continue this story.  You see, about the only MFG that used Sanyo's was Nintendo. EVERY Donkey Kong, Mario Brothers, Playchoice, etc.. that I have seen has always used these monitors.   There are two very unique things about them. (Acutally this could be more said of the Nintendo game boards and the monitor they picked happened to deal with it with an inverter board)

1) They use 100 volts AC and NOT 110/115/120 volts.  Nintendos, being made in Japan, used a step-down transformer to reduce the voltage to 100 volts on its power boards in the cabinets to both power the flourescent light and the monitor at 100 volts (and the AC->DC switch-mode power supply too of course)

2) The Sanyo monitors use "inverted video" or "negative video". In other words, 0 volts meant "turn on gun" and 5 volts meant "turn off gun" (and anything in between appropiately).  ALL other monitors expect "positive video" -- 0 meaning gun off, 5 volts meaning gun on (2.5 volts = half brightness,etc..)


In addition, the Sanyo requires "negative composite sync" signal. While most other monitors support negative or positive sync, composite or separate (vertical separate from horizontal)



Okay.  I will assume that first of all, the cabinet already has the 110 to 100 volt ac/ac converter in place powering the monitor (otherwise it wouldn't work at all).

Second, I assume that the game that was in it before you started was not a nintendo game and was not a negative video game.  AND that it likely was a 256 color game. (here is where it gets interesting)

That little breadboard hand wired job labeled 7404?  It's a simple 6 port HEX inverter.  It looks like they are using exactly 3 of the 6 ports (6 wires, 1 in, 1 out for each) plus another 2 wires for ground (lower left) and +5V (upper right).

What this little chippie does is invert a digital signal from 5 volts to 0 volts and from 0 volts to 5 volts. Basically a "NOT" logic circuit.  0 = 1 and 1 = 0.   Click here for more info: http://www.falstaff.demon.co.uk/7400.html

The REASON this chip is there is because the game put into your cabinet had a positive RGB output and not a negative one, and they wanted to "flip" the signal on each of the guns (R/G/B) to get a correct output (otherwise white looks black, black looks white, blue looks yellow (green+red) and so on....  [take it out of circuit and put back in the original game board, or play with mame and see the cool negative color image you'll get]

However, the problem is that I think this is a DIGITAL inverter and not an ANALOG inverter.  Therefore it's entirely possible that this is the (1st cause) of your problems.

Assuming it was working entirely digital, then at about 2.5 volts, it will switch the signal.. if higher then 2.5 it will output 0, if lower than 2.5 it will output 5.

Therefore in theory, this would allow only 2 levels of color per gun--digitally. 0 or 5. 2^3 = 8 colors.   However perhaps the N series works at more discrete levels inverting them (I don't know enough about the inverter myself) and it is somehow allowing 8 bits to pass through on each gun (2^8 = 256 colors), eg. 0 volts, .7 volts, 1.4 volts, 2.1 volts, 2.8 volts, 3.5 volts, 4.2 volts, 4.9 volts.

However, now you want to run a 4096 color game through it.. That requires an additional 4 discrete levels in the signal (or more if it actually is 16 million color but just selects from a "pallette" of 4096 colors.   The inverter chip likely isn't handling the discrete analog levels, and instead is converting them to inverted digital ones, (much like sampling an analog audio signal and creating a digital one from it).  Without enough sampling bits, it will tend to be choppy, and thus why you MAY be seeing it as if it was dithering to 256 colors.


Okay... Part of the above is "best speculation" on my part.  I COULD be wrong but like I said, most 74xx series chips are digital unless otherwise stated at being analog capable.  This is where i think the problem is.

<continued>

MameFan

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re:what kind of monitor do I have
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2003, 12:49:47 pm »
< continued from previous >

Solutions?

1) Remove the chip out of series and then see if the monitor will draw stuff better, but just inverse colors.  If so, there may be a way to make Mame and/or windows (video driver) draw negative colors and solve the problem.

2) I THINK the core 20EZ monitor itself is positive, and it just has a little tiny daughter board attached to the side of the metal housing around the flyback.  If you do some googling you might find information regarding this.   You may be able to take THEIR inverter out of the process (its definitely more than a 7404 chip, thats for sure!) and then connect directly to the positive inputs the monitor boards are expecting.  HOWEVER: this may involve risk if the positive inputs are not isolated from the power of the monitor (they should be BUT don't assume--you could shock yourself or blow up your computer/video card if they're not isolated).  

Again you can safely take the 7404 out of series and mess around with that... it doesn't provide isolation protection, therefore the outputs from it to the monitor already are isolated.


Anyway, this got long, but I think it should give you a direction to look at regarding the problem and possible solution. Please post any more info you find and if you figure it out.


Edit: I just realized that perhaps you havn't even tried any true 256 color games (since mame no longer supports color depths below 256).  If you load up PacMan or old games like that, they only use what, 8 or 16 total colors?  It's possible the inverter chip is allowin 3 bits (0/2.5/5 volt) selection per gun, and that would allow 16 colors.  But if it allowed only 0/5 it would only give you 8 colors, but not noticeable in old games that used "pure" bright RGB levels.


Edit2: To "quickly" take the 7404 out of circuit, do this:

7404
Hex inverters.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2003, 01:07:31 pm by MameFan »

mpm32

  • Cheesecake Master
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4121
  • Last login:November 20, 2018, 09:25:14 pm
  • I want to Build My Own Arcade Controls!!
Re:what kind of monitor do I have
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2003, 02:22:11 pm »
Holy Crap!  There was a lot of knowledge in that post.  You couldn't get better info from a book.  How do you know all that mamefan?

Nicely Done.

MameFan

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re:what kind of monitor do I have
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2003, 02:46:10 pm »
Thank you MPM.

Actually, I always have been an electronics tiner-er as a child (thanks to a science teacher as a parent) and always had to take stuff apart from my toys to other things just to see how they worked.  

Up til recently I hadn't ventured past building PC's or collecting/fixing basic home gaming systems (like Intellivisions, Commodore 64's, Atari's).  Other than cracking open a 13" monitor or 19" TV to clean inside, I avoided them like the plague.  

However in just the last 2 years, I started getting into collecting and refurbishing old arcade games. Since replacing old worn out/burnedin/dead monitors at $300 a piece just wasn't an option for me, I began to read tons of information on the net about them.

I *already* had a good "working hobiest" knowledge about electronics. Understanding voltages, amperages, resistance, capcitance, diodes and transistors and integrated circuits.  Definitely NOT an expert by ANY means.  (I am a computer software design architect/programmer at a very large company in fact, but work only in software not hardware area in my daily job).

I started reading the SCI.ELECTRONICS Repair FAQ on the net and then after getting into fixing up arcade games less than 2 years ago, starting googling for information and turned up some old posts from Randy Fromm and tons of others.  Given I already had knowledge I just apply one thing to another to solve stuff.  

But working with monitors is a very risky thing and you need to understand all the risks anytime you are messing with anything even close to the tube/board.  This is the part I like the least, and am STILL gaining knowledge.  That why I indicated above that I was *assuming* a few things and to test/research more yourself just to be 100% sure.

But thank you again.  I am always glad to help if I think it's valuable.

oddsock

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5
  • Last login:August 31, 2003, 03:25:40 pm
  • I want my own arcade controls!
Re:what kind of monitor do I have
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2003, 02:52:05 pm »
man, oh man, suffice to say your help has been invaluable...This info just plain rocks...


Solutions?

1) Remove the chip out of series and then see if the monitor will draw stuff better, but just inverse colors.  If so, there may be a way to make Mame and/or windows (video driver) draw negative colors and solve the problem.


ok, so before I read your "shortcut" approach, I had already bypassed the circut, and I am now, in fact, getting inverted colors.. and it definately seems that there are much more than before!!! which is just awesome.  It is a bit hard to tell with the inverted colors, but still, it seems much better than before...So, one last question then, can I get a 7404 Analog ? or a Digital version with better granularity ? and thus allows more colors ? I'm not much of a electronic parts expert, but I can solder a simple chip if I need to....or any other way of inverting the signals ?

and thanks again for all your help...I really do appreciate it...

oddsock

MameFan

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re:what kind of monitor do I have
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2003, 05:20:18 pm »
I did some googling and found that believe it or not, the 7404 DIGITAL inversion trick was actually advocated by some people.  However others knew that it won't work in all cases, and is dependent upon the quality of the chip and your signal strength, but in fact, it is only a digital switch and it just happens to "sometimes" work as a quasi-analog one if you're lucky. They were talking saying that the old games were only 8 or 9 colors so it worked for the most part on digital mode anyway.

(Search google newsgroups for "analog video inverter nintendo" and see the results)


Anyway, it appears that you will need to buy an analog inversion IC and 3 resistors for EACH R/G/B line and build a tiny circuit.

I did some more goolging and came up with this stuff that follows (none of it is my work)  Note: I am still looking to see if you can simply bypass the inverter board that is already on the monitor or if that also provided isolation and/or amplification to the monitor. I will post more later.

Code: [Select]
8.6.2) RGB polarity

       While all raster monitors accept RGB inputs, they can have
       either positive or negative logic.  The majority of games use
       positive logic (when the voltage is on, the electron gun turns
       on, and you get a bright image), but Nintendo games use
       negative logic, which works the other way around.

       RGB signals are analog signals; you'll need an analog inverter
       to get around the problem; a CMOS hex inverter (say, a 4069),
       which is designed to invert digital signals, won't work.  To
       be more precise, it theoretically *shouldn't* work, but on
       the practical side, a few people have tried it and actually
       managed to make it work.  Your mileage may vary.  One tip: if
       you try this, make sure you ground all of your unused inputs.

       Meanwhile, the "right way" is to use an analog inversion
       circuit for each of the three RGB signals.  It requires a
       +12V, -12V, and -5V supply, but some power supplies will
       supply all three voltages.  Thanks to Paul Kahler for the
       original schematic and document (see reference {9.2.2}).

                                     R3
                              +-----/\/\/---------+
                              |                   |
                              |     |\   +-- +12V |
                    R1        |     |  \ |        |
       Input ------/\/\/------+-----|-   \        |
                              |     |LM318 \______|_______ Output
       -5V --------/\/\/------+  +--|+    /
                    R2           |  |   /|
                                 |  | /  |
                                 |       +--  -12V
                                 GND
       
       R1, R2, and R3 are all identical resistors.  A value of roughly
       10K should provide good results.  The LM318 is a high-frequency
       op-amp.  Its pinouts are as follows:

                              1 Comp/bal     8 Comp
                              2 -in          7 V+
                              3 +in          6 output
                              4 V-           5 Comp/bal

       The "Comp" pins may be ignored.  An LF356 might also work, but
       the 741 is not recommended.

MameFan

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re:what kind of monitor do I have
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2003, 11:08:24 am »
I *MAY* have a solution for you!!

In doing some looking (I still need to crack open my case and look at what it actually looks like), but I found a schematic for the Nintendo video inversion board.  And guess what? It appears to have 2 sets of wire connection headers on it.  One set is the normal ones for inverted, and another set is for non-inverted!

Check this schematic out:
http://slot-tech-ftp.serveftp.com:8080/monitors/monitor%20schematic%20diagrams/nintendo_video_inverter.jpg

I see the following:
Header AA takes the video input
Header AB is the power input
Header AC is the INVERTED video output of AA
Header AD is the PASS-THRU NON-inverted video from AA


Look for this board attached to the side of the flyback metal cage. It should have part # UF0029 ? on it, and should have the above header connectors, one of which, AD, should be open (showing the metal pins).  It seems to imply there is a cable leading from the board to the monitor chassis that is connected to header AC.  Just move it over to header AD and see if that inverts (restores to normal) your video!!!!


Let us know if this works for you... It'd be really funny if the board had pass-thru all along and for the last 20 years people have built double-inverters to get around the inversion problem when all they needed to do was move a cable!!!!!

oddsock

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5
  • Last login:August 31, 2003, 03:25:40 pm
  • I want my own arcade controls!
Re:what kind of monitor do I have
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2003, 11:54:48 am »
In doing some looking (I still need to crack open my case and look at what it actually looks like), but I found a schematic for the Nintendo video inversion board.  And guess what? It appears to have 2 sets of wire connection headers on it.  One set is the normal ones for inverted, and another set is for non-inverted!
I do not seem to have this inversion board...it would seem that the purpose of this board was to be able to either provide inverted colors or not..  doing more investigation on my cabinet it seems that it has been converted possibly a few times, the orientation of the monitor was switched from Vertical to Horizontal (quite possibly that's when the SanyoEZ was installed) and it was converted from an Atari cabinet - model 40200 Serial UR00848 to a JAMMA cabinet (what it currently is now)...it was also at one point a Mario Bros. game (which I assume used the inverted video) and then converted to a Superman game (which may be when the digital inverter was installed).  When I got it, it was Superman in a Jamma cabinet.  Anyway, very interesting stuff, so much history in one game :)...

anyway, I am waiting for the parts to build my own color inverter (this will be my first attempt at making a circut for a game) and will post back the results...again, your help is most appreciated :)

oddsock

oddsock

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5
  • Last login:August 31, 2003, 03:25:40 pm
  • I want my own arcade controls!
Re:what kind of monitor do I have
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2003, 08:49:04 pm »
well I thought I would at least post back on this thread, in case anyone was curious...I tried building the circuit MameFan pointed out, but wasn't terribly unsuccessfull.  I build one of the 3 circuits (you need one circuit for each color R, G, and B)...now granted this was my first wiring job, and hooked it up with all the correct voltage and got a sort of correct output...I connected the Red input into my circuit and I did start to see red where I normally would see black, however the red kinda bled over parts of the screen..and also parts of the screen were not entirely red when they should have been....it actually looked pretty bad...I disconnected the circuit and re-checked that everything was correct, and all the solder points were good, and eveerything did look ok (but like I said, this was my first circuit)...reconnected it and it looked the same...so I'm not entirely sure if the problem is with the circuit itself (some people claimed they did not like the results of this circuit) or with my construction...either way, the desired results were not obtained.  

So at this point I might look to replace the monitor (although it has no burn in, it needs a cap kit desparately) with a TV tube, and hopefully not electrocute myself in the process...

anyway, so that's that.... :)

thanks to all (especially Mamefan) for the help provided.

oddsock

StephenH

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 544
  • Last login:January 09, 2023, 06:15:45 am
  • I'm a llama!
Re:what kind of monitor do I have
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2003, 03:59:51 am »
Inverted Colors:

Red -> Cyan
Green -> Magenta
Blue -> Yellow
White -> Black

And the reverse is true.

MameFan

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re:what kind of monitor do I have
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2003, 09:42:43 am »
Oddsock --

Are you sure you're running the correct voltages into the amps?

They specificially require -5 (negative 5), -12 (negative 12) and +12 (positive 12).  Perhaps you connected only +5/+12 instead of the special negative based ones?

Also, if you used static resistors (eg single value 10K ones), perhaps you might want to replace them with a 10K variable resistor so you can adjust the resistance and see if that helps the picture.

Also, if you're having problems with the monitor, you may want to put in the cap kit, who knows what that could help with.