Window boxes

[ChadTower]

One of my upcoming honeydo items is window boxes for outside.  Decent for my skill level, I suppose.  Obviously plywood is out... pine rots too easily, yes?  What to use, maybe cedar, if I can find it?

I notice the Mill Stores here has these...  just looking for examples, but these suckers are pine. 

Any thoughts?  Building the boxes should be simple but securing them on the house has me a little uncertain.  Our house is vinyl siding over (I'm fairly sure) asbestos shingles.

[leapinlew]

sweet BYOWB - good luck - and don't forget:
             

[ChadTower]

It will give me the chance to try out some of those router bits from the $20 deal.   

[fatfingers]

I don't have any skills either and have the same project coming -- I was thinking of cedar because of rot resistance.  I also saw a plan that made the window boxes just the right size so you could put a plastic planter in it.  I think I have the plan at home and could search for it if you'd be interested in seeing it (pdf doc).

[ChadTower]

Thanks, I have a couple different sets of plans but probably won't need them to make a box that holds dirt.  Plus there is this tutorial.

I'm still trying to decide specifically on which method of joinery to use and what edges to route on the top.  I'm just not 100% sure I trust this tutorial's method for attaching them to the house.

EDIT:  direct link to the plans in that tutorial.

[Havoc]

Those prices at the mill store aren't that bad considering the wood alone would cost almost that much (even if they are pine). 

[ChadTower]

The store is very hit or miss... some of their stuff is well made because it's simple and has room for sloppiness, like deck furniture.  My wife and I went there looking for good bookcases and they were crap.  There were open gaps in joints as much as a quarter inch, gouges in the wood that would have to be filled, cracked shelf planks, etc etc.  Still reasonable for the price, as the price wasn't all that high, but far from "finish it and end up with fine furniture inexpensively".

[ScottS]

First question: what color do you want the boxes to end up? Do you want a natural wood look, or are you going to paint them?

If you want to paint the boxes, then the type of wood is less important than buying a good exterior primer and paint. Chances are, most of the exterior trim on your house is pine if it's made out of wood. It doesn't rot because it's painted. And if it does rot, who cares? Make a few more and replace them...

If you want wood, the DIY article gives some good options. I think that white oak is actually supposed to be pretty good for outdoor stuff. As they mention, red oak is not. There are also a number of exotic tropical hardwoods that are cheaper than Teak and good for outdoor projects. Ipe (pronounced E-pay) is one, meranti (a mahogany variant, IIRC) is another. Both are frequently used for decks. Just about any wood you use will turn gray/silver if it isn't protected with some type of finish.

As far as attaching the boxes to the house, long lag bolts are the way to go. You just need to make sure there's a stud behind them. There should be studs at the edges of the window. Depending on how wide the window is, you may also have cripple studs that support the window sill. A big rubber washer between the house and the planter might not be a bad idea. If you're going to be doing more than a few of these projects, you might find a book on framing to be a worthwhile investment. Knowing where you're likely to find studs, rafters, joists, etc. and why is often useful when you're trying to attach things to your house or make other modifications.

[ChadTower]

Hrm, thanks for that.  I'm going to stain them to match the trim, just like in that tutorial.  The trim on the house is actually vinyl and aluminum, made up either from the vinyl siders or the guys who did the vinyl window frames.  I do have a book on framing and it's a good idea to take a look at where to expect the studs.

[NiteWalker]

Best outdoor woods: cypress and cedar. I prefer cypress. Also, of the mill stores link you posted, you can just buy one of the brackets you like and use it as a template for making duplicates out of the outdoor wood you chose. The 20 piece set included a flush trim bit.

[ChadTower]

That's not a bad idea... the nearest store is a bit away, but it may be worth it.

[leapinlew]

It will give me the chance to try out some of those router bits from the $20 deal.   

What deal was that?

[ChadTower]

What deal was that?

This one.

[NiteWalker]

That deal is still going but there's only 1/4" shank sets left. Add to your cart and they show as $20.

Also Chad, there's another way to make a bracket if you have a bit of time. Just draw up something full scale that you like, trace it onto some MDF, cut the bracket out, fine tune with sandpaper and you have a template. Personally if I saw one I liked I'd just buy it and use it as a template.

[ChadTower]

I was planning on cutting one out of cardboard as they showed, then tracing it  onto the wood and cutting it with circular and jigsaw.  Then I'd use that one as the template for all of the rest and flush trim them.  Am I not doing it efficiently like that?

[NiteWalker]

Yep that'll work fine. I just use MDF as a template for making a master template because it's so easily shaped.

[ChadTower]

Ah.  I don't have any MDF on hand.  I have random sizes of plywood scrap, though, but I doubt that would work as well.

[NiteWalker]

Plywood is ok as long as there are no voids. For that reason all my master templates are made of 1/2" baltic birch plywood. You can just use whatever wood you decide to use for the window box and brackets. Just make your first one, make sure it's exactly how you want it and then use that as a template.

[ChadTower]

Wait, ply is okay for the template or the box itself?

[NiteWalker]

Templates. The only plywood good for outdoor use is pressure treated and that kind is dog ugly.

[ChadTower]

Okay, good, that's what I thought, and if I was wrong it was going to throw all my new lumber knowledge out the window.   

[leapinlew]

That set looks decent - I ordered a 50pc one for $50 that may potentially kill me - we'll see how cheap they are.

In the $20 set it stays "1/2" Flush Trim". Does that mean it can only cut material that is 1/2" thick?

Chad, you may find the pattern bit more useful. I just started using it and it really helps to secure the pattern on top of your material to do the cuts. It may be worth spending the money

3rd one down: http://www.mlcswoodworking.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/smarthtml/pages/bt_flush.html

[NiteWalker]

The 1/2" measurement is the bit diameter. The cutting length is what you are referring to. I believe it's 1" with that set.

Lew, there's nothing wrong with getting a big cheap set if you don't know what direction your router woodworking will go. Even if the bits you bought don't last the simple solution is to replace more frequently used bits with whitesides as they dull and become useless. Straight bits, flush trim and pattern bits, roundovers and chamfers are the most likely to be replaced as they are great general purpose bits.

[leapinlew]

The 1/2" measurement is the bit diameter. The cutting length is what you are referring to. I believe it's 1" with that set.

Lew, there's nothing wrong with getting a big cheap set if you don't know what direction your router woodworking will go. Even if the bits you bought don't last the simple solution is to replace more frequently used bits with whitesides as they dull and become useless. Straight bits, flush trim and pattern bits, roundovers and chamfers are the most likely to be replaced as they are great general purpose bits.

Bit diameter! Got it... 1" should be plenty. I notice lots of sets only give 1 measurement. Now I know thats the bit diameter - why don't they give the length? That seems an important measurement to me. no?

[NiteWalker]

Usually the good manufacturers like whiteside ( ) do give you all the dimensions.

[ChadTower]

I stopped at Lowe's on the way home to check out some wood.  I know, not a great place to get wood, but it's the only place on my way home.  Looking at the pine and the cedar, I think I could go with either one with good results.  I just need to find the proper exterior stain to go with it.

Anyone have any tips on how to find a good lumber yard?  I have been trying googles, yellow pages, etc and they aren't popping up much more than flooring places.  There is a couple Woodcrafts but they're both about 45 minutes away.  When I finally get around to making that shed out of Honduran Rosewood, I'll drive 45 minutes.   

[ScottS]

Woodcraft is a rip-off as far as wood prices go. The one near by place doesn't have that much wood either. A dozen pieces of this, a half-dozen pieces of that, maybe a couple of dozen pieces of red oak. They're the last place I'd go if I needed wood.

Two thoughts on finding a lumberyard: 1) look in the phone book for 'lumber' or 'saw mill' until you find a place with a large display ad and a name you don't recognize. Then call them and ask how many acres their store has, how many million board feet of lumber they have in inventory, etc. or 2) find an on-line woodworking forum (I like WoodCentral) and ask people in your area where they buy wood for projects.

BTW, your exterior wood trim actually looks like wood? Interesting. All of the trim on my house is painted. Exterior stains don't last very long. I think the transparent ones only last for 2-3 years. Semi-transparent is much more durable, at least according to Consumer Reports. I used Olympic semi-transparent stain when I built my pergola a couple of years ago. I think I bought it at Lowe's and it was one of the brands that CR recommended. I obscures the grain a bit, but so far I don't have any fading or color change...

[ChadTower]

Thanks for the advice.  I'll head to Woodcentral later on today.

My exterior trim is vinyl (from the siding) or aluminum (from the window framing), so no wood there.  I figured stain since I've had bad experiences with paint peeling from wood over the winter here.  Stain just fades and you can restain.  I don't need a grain retaining stain or anything as I'm going to stain them either offwhite (siding) or grey-blue (shutters) to match one of the two colors of the house.

[ScottS]

If you don't want the wood grain to be visible, I'd really be tempted to go with a high-quality exterior paint. Prime first, perhaps with an oil-based primer, and use a high-quality paint (Consumer Reports rated the Behr brand that's available at Home Depot pretty highly) and it should last for quite a while. Certainly much longer than a stain will last. IIRC, CR said the best paints last about twice as long as the best opaque stains...

[ChadTower]

I have used Behr and it was the worst... paint... ever.  I used it in my kids' rooms and there were places on the trim where it took me 6-7 coats to get over white primer to the point where you couldn't see through it anymore.

I would have no problem using something like a Sherwin Williams exeterior paint.  I've been using their paints for a couple of years and two coats of their midlevel paint comes out better than 5 of Behr.

[ScottS]

Interesting. I've used Behr interior and exterior paint in the last 12 months and found it to cover very well. Not sure about long-term durability,  but so far it seems great. I think that in both cases I used some sort of off-the-shelf variation of white, though. I've also had good luck with Benjamin Moore, though it's a bit pricey at the closest local store. Sherwin-Williams I've never been particularly impressed with...

Interesting. Consumer Reports rates Behr Premium Plus Enamel as the best interior paint on the market, for every sheen. Sherwin-Williams varys from mid-pack to bottom of the barrel, depending on the product. I've used Behr Premium Plus within the last year and been happy with the results.

For exterior paints, CR rates Glidden as the best paint. Behr is mid-pack. Again, I've also used the Behr exterior paint and it seems to be holding up. CR seem to indicate that after 5-6 years that may start to deteriorate. Mine has only been on for 12-18 months, so it's too early to tell...

[ChadTower]

Yeah, and Behr just happens to be the Home Depot house brand.  CR isn't exactly as credible as it used to be.  It used to be the end word, but if you cross check CR's ratings against actual user ratings on the net now, they rarely match up consistently.

[ScottS]

It used to be the end word, but if you cross check CR's ratings against actual user ratings on the net now, they rarely match up consistently.

Right: because your average Internet user is a bumbling cretin who can barely type a coherent sentence let alone paint their house correctly. CR certainly isn't the last word on reviews, I wouldn't necessarily trust their opinion on digital cameras or high-end stereo gear for instance, but I'd put more faith in them than most random Internet ---That which is odiferous and causeth plants to grow---...

BTW, who cares that Behr is the Home Depot house brand? What does that have to do with anything?

[fatfingers]

Paint is generally another one of those "you get what you pay for", in my experience.  If you get a paint and the stir stick will stand up in the can without falling over, you probably have a decent one.

[ChadTower]

Right: because your average Internet user is a bumbling cretin who can barely type a coherent sentence let alone paint their house correctly. CR certainly isn't the last word on reviews, I wouldn't necessarily trust their opinion on digital cameras or high-end stereo gear for instance, but I'd put more faith in them than most random Internet ---smurf-poop---...

BTW, who cares that Behr is the Home Depot house brand? What does that have to do with anything?

I don't want to argue about paint brands.  I have used Behr.  It was terrible.  I will not use it again.  CR saying it is good does not refute my personal experiences with the brand and does not sway my opinion.  I have used CR in the past for determining what brand to use for other things and generally the items don't perform anywhere near CR's rating.  I do not trust CR anymore.

[Chris G]

In general I agree about getting what you pay for, however, even with "good" brands, I get the occasional crap gallon that's super-thin or covers poorly... you just never know.

[leapinlew]

I just redid a house and used 75 gallons of paint and primer.

I used Behr, Glidden, American Heritage and a few other brands. Behr had really good coverage but we couldn't get as much coverage out of a gallon of behr as we did Glidden. I was happy with Behr, but there were a few rooms that we needed 1.25 gallons of behr and had left over paint from 1 gallon of Glidden.

[ChadTower]

I did the trim in one son's room with Behr... it took 7 coats of Behr to cover the trim until you could no longer see through to the primer.  7 ---smurfing--- coats of taping and untaping and painting and taping and untaping and painting.

I did the same trim in my other son's room with generic Ace Hardware brand paint... two coats looked better than the 7 of Behr in the first room.

[DrewKaree]

For your window boxes:  Drive to Home Depot.  Go over to the drywall section.  See if they have a mud trough that's about the size you want to make your planters.  Buy one to use as your tester.  Make the box just big enough to drop the mud trough in there.

If'n you don't like that idea, or they're too expensive for you to drop in a flower box, head over to the heating/ventilation aisle and pick up some galvanized sheeting (and a pop rivet gun and a tin snips if you don't have one).  Make a box out of the galvanized sheeting as large as you need, and throw some caulk over the seams and rivet heads.  Then make your window box and drop the metal box in there. 

I'd always look for ways to NOT have dirt touching the actual wood.  The exception to this would be the oak barrel types of planters, but for window boxes, they'll last FAR longer if you don't have moist dirt pressing against them 24/7 during the growing season.  Lasting longer means you don't have "rebuild more flower boxes" added to the honeydo list as quickly in the future.

Also, and it seems like it'll be a waste of money now but will pay off in the long run, build several more window boxes than you need right now.  Stick the 3-4 extras up in your shed.  Your wife will invariably want more of them after she sees how nice they make the house look, and/or you'll have to replace them.

If you've got lots of plywood left over, use it to make a template for your flower boxes.  This will make it quick and easy to make hundreds of duplicates that are exactly identical.  After you've got the pieces cut to the correct size, fill the edges with either bondo or drywall compound.  Keep filling and sanding until your edges are smooth and void free.  I'm telling you to do this simply because it's what you've got on hand, but honestly, the best thing for you to do is pick up a half or quarter sheet of MDF at Home Depot and use THAT for making your template.

As for the joints for that box, it's a nice small project, why not consider trying your hand at a sliding dovetail joint to attach the narrow side pieces to your front/back piece?  Also, a rabbet around the lower section with a piece of plywood should work just fine.  Just fasten 3 of the sides together, and slide the bottom into the rabbet.  Make the rabbets on the two short side pieces a bit deeper so you can slide the bottom into that while attaching the final end piece, then slide it back to catch on both short side pieces and throw a nail in there to keep it in place.

The dado is the better joint to use because of the rabbet (no need to cut one groove deeper than any of the others; I'm just suggesting a dovetail for some practice for you.).  Alternatively, you could dovetail one side, and dado the other, but it'll look funky.

I'd also get some very good primer and apply two coats, then top with the color of your choice.  Stain will quickly look bad within the first year, even with a spar varnish or other product applied.  After one winter, you'll wish you had painted.

[ChadTower]

I was thinking of using a dado for all of the joints, just for practice, about an inch away from the edge.  Then I'll round off the edges for decoration.  I have to get to the stone pathway before I do this, though, and may end up trying to order the paving stones today.