New project - 4 Player Modular design

[ironpoet]

I don't have a timeline for construction yet, but I figured it was time to post here.  I'm planning to build a four-player cabinet based on Doc's Modular Mame: www.beersmith.com/mame.

I've been interested in building a MAME machine for a while now, but it always seemed too complicated (and it's not like I had a lot of spare time in college!)  Just recently I started researching it again and discovered BYOAC.  I've been reading these threads for a month or two now, and it looks like the process isn't as hard as I thought.  So I've decided to try it myself.

I'm following Doc's design for the following reasons:
- Because the panel's are modular, I don't have to purchase every control immediately.  I can get started with just joysticks and buttons, and add spinners and trackballs in later.  This also means I can keep tweaking the cabinet forever (which I hear is more fun than actually playing the games!)
- If I screw up a panel I haven't ruined my entire control panel.  That means I can take a few more risks to get things looking pretty.
- Honestly, the real reason is that I just fell in love with the design.  I think it's an elegant solution to the Frankenpanel problem.  I know modular panels have limitations on artwork and some people don't like the visible seams, but I think the design itself is pretty beautiful.

Anyway, here's the initial concept.  The cabinet design isn't finalized (and I think it needs some more tweaking), but it should give an idea of what I'm planning.


For the moment, however, I'm just going to focus on building the control panel.


I'll post pictures once I start building.  For now, I'm still in the planning and parts collecting stage!  Wish me luck!

[unclet]

Not sure if you are wanting comments, but I guess that is what makes this forum souch a good forum .... so......

1) I believe the center support which you are using to hold up the control panel will definitely interfere with the players using the blue/yellow buttons/joysticks.   The player's feet might hit the support, so you might want to think about whether this will truely be a problem for you or not.   

2) I would add a monitor bezel as well to hide that TV  case as well

3) If you are going to the trouble of making a very complete 4-player design, you might want to allow for playing pinball games as well with side buttons and a plunger button (or real plunger perhaps .....)

I realize you say you have not really decided on a cabinet design yet, but thought I would offer some comments anyways ..... could not hurt .....

Be nice to see this project progress ...... keep posting pics ...

[ironpoet]

Thanks, unclet.  Yeah, I would love any feedback that people might have.

1) The pedestal is only 8" wide, so I wasn't sure if it would be a big problem or not, but I admit it's a bit of a concern.  I like the look and I figured the extra support couldn't hurt, but it's definitely something that could change before the plans are finalized.

2) The truth is I was playing with Google Sketchup and decided to import a Sony TV model and try to shove it in there (with mixed results).  I would definitely put a bezel on the finished product.

3) I was thinking about the pinball problem.  The trouble is that the control panel will be (as planned) about 48" wide, which wouldn't be comfortable for playing pinball.  I was thinking I could make a separate module specifically for pinball, which would hang out further and contain the side buttons and the plunger.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback!  I appreciate it!

[BobA]

Looks good but I think 4 people side by side would be crowding each other with your setup.   Try standy just 2 people together and see how much space they need to not rub body parts.   Now double it.   Your outside controls may have to be on an angle to get a view of the screen and to make physical room for the players.

[DaveMMR]

Looks good but I think 4 people side by side would be crowding each other with your setup.   Try standy just 2 people together and see how much space they need to not rub body parts.   Now double it.   Your outside controls may have to be on an angle to get a view of the screen and to make physical room for the players.

I don't think 4-player games were ever designed for comfort (see: Gauntlet).  Even most two player games I remember wasn't for those afraid of casual body contact.  Then again, I may have a large frame.  My point is: there's an acceptable amount of 'crowding' expecting with 4-player cabs.  It's not a sofa.

I would recommend against angling the outside joysticks because that would kill the whole point of doing the modular setup.  Plus, I dunno just me, I would hate having to play at an angle... with the corner in the crotch and all. 

Finally, why not extend the bottom half of the cab out so you don't have that awkward support.  Or go for a Showcase design.  I can see the concerns with that center column. 

[SithMaster]

If i were you i wouldnt use a dedicated start button unless you want it to double as a pause button.  I plan on using the players primary fire/action button for player start.

Dave is right.  the only cab ive seen that doesnt have casual contact is time crisis.  4 player cabs have the overhang cp for a reason.  if they tried to give each player room it would make the cab too big.

Is the blue outline on the cp tmolding?

Since its modular id be worried about the angled sticks as well.  It would mean they have to go on the ends and if you have molding then it would look awkward.

have you looked at tmnt, xmen, bucky ohare, and simpson cabs?  id try to follow the konami style as best you could.  id lose the center part on the bottom and if you extend it out more you can have a place to store the panels you arent using perhaps.  why are the buttons all different colors but the stick bats not?  you almost have the tmnt colors going on.

finally where are the speakers going?  id avoid the ones built into the tv.

[DaveMMR]

If i were you i wouldnt use a dedicated start button unless you want it to double as a pause button.  I plan on using the players primary fire/action button for player start.

I disagree.  You definately need a dedicated start button for both players.  But the problem is that I can't think of a concrete example as to why (it's late - I'm tired).  It probably does work that way, but a start button is less confusing to others than having one button do double duty.  Lose the other admin buttons I'd say.

...but I could almost swear there's a game where it'd be a problem.  Someone care to help?

But you are right, they make excellent shift buttons.

[bfauska]

I want to say I've played a fighter where the start button was the taunt command.  I realize taunt may not be of the utmost importance, but a key trying to do 2 things at once could bite you in the ass somehow.

[BobA]

Looks good but I think 4 people side by side would be crowding each other with your setup.   Try standy just 2 people together and see how much space they need to not rub body parts.   Now double it.   Your outside controls may have to be on an angle to get a view of the screen and to make physical room for the players.

I don't think 4-player games were ever designed for comfort (see: Gauntlet).  Even most two player games I remember wasn't for those afraid of casual body contact.  Then again, I may have a large frame.  My point is: there's an acceptable amount of 'crowding' expecting with 4-player cabs.  It's not a sofa.

I would recommend against angling the outside joysticks because that would kill the whole point of doing the modular setup.  Plus, I dunno just me, I would hate having to play at an angle... with the corner in the crotch and all. 

Finally, why not extend the bottom half of the cab out so you don't have that awkward support.  Or go for a Showcase design.  I can see the concerns with that center column. 

I agree you would always get some contact.   All I was pointing out is that since there are  no measurements it should be checked that it is physcally possible before comminting to build the cab.

Building the last 2 of 4 panels with the stick angled (not the panel) would not get away from the modular.   The last 2 of 4 would only be built when a 4 player config was wanted and would thus need 2 more panels anyway.  They would not be interchangeable for the first 2 but this would never be required.   Any other modular panels would only go into the first 2 player slots.

[DaveMMR]

Angling joysticks is problematic for two reasons:

1. Most people assume that north is towards the monitor.  Unless you
have some artwork indicating which way is up, expect a great deal of
confusion followed by fights over who gets stuck with the outer
controls.  And even with artwork, people will ignore it and forget in
the heat of battle.

2. Playing at an angle on a rectangular panel is an invitation for a
jab in the crotch from the corner.  It's really not comfortable.  I'd
rather be crowded-in.

The only time I can see angling controls is when your control panel
shape is half-hexagonal, where the control layout is always parallel to
the front edge.   That, of course, is not an option if it's going to be
modular.

I remember most real 4-player cabs having all the controls the same way
(NBA Jam, TMNT, Simpsons). EDIT: (I looked up TMNT and Simpsons and there is angling on their controls - but I still think monitor is north - correct me if I'm wrong.  NBA Jam and it's ilk is all straight) Even Gauntlet, with their odd layout, had
all joysticks the same direction (if I'm remembering correctly).

Angling your joysticks, at best, will confuse guests (and if you're
going 4-player I'm assuming they'll be guests) and discourage playing,
making all that work for nothing.  A little crowding never hurt anyone.

[BobA]

The advantage of modular is that ironpoet can build what ever he choses.

[SithMaster]

The advantage of modular is that ironpoet can build what ever he choses.

well its also his cab so...

on the tmnt i play on i thought the outer sticks were angled.

boba sorry thought you meant you were against all contact.

[RyoriNoTetsujin]

That design looks vaguely familiar (he says, looking at his sig.)   I designed my cab in Sketchup too, so your mock-up looked even more reminiscent of the early days of my cab!

Does the CP have a few inches of overhang over the pedestal?  It's hard to tell from the pic.   If it does, that'll help clear up any foot-discomfort issues.  (I think mine has 3" or 4", but I don't remember.) 

That said, my CP, which is really just an extended 2player, is 40".  We've managed to get a nice 3-player game of Rampage World Tour, but 4 players, even with another 8", would be cramped.  Have you thought about a semi-modular design? 

This is an interesting project!  I've also been thinking about adding a separate pinball module to my own cab, so I'm curious to see what you have in mind!  Keep posting!

[ironpoet]

That design looks vaguely familiar (he says, looking at his sig.)   I designed my cab in Sketchup too, so your mock-up looked even more reminiscent of the early days of my cab!

Does the CP have a few inches of overhang over the pedestal?  It's hard to tell from the pic.   If it does, that'll help clear up any foot-discomfort issues.  (I think mine has 3" or 4", but I don't remember.) 

Ha!  You know, I had gotten the idea for a pedestal from looking at your cab, but then afterwards I was never able to find it again (so I had no idea where to give credit).  Thanks for letting me know!  No, the drawing doesn't have any overhang, but that would probably solve the foot space problem nicely.

That said, my CP, which is really just an extended 2player, is 40".  We've managed to get a nice 3-player game of Rampage World Tour, but 4 players, even with another 8", would be cramped.  Have you thought about a semi-modular design? 

I was already a bit concerned that a 48" control panel might be too big.  I haven't found too many other control panels that are that long.  Even the 4-player panels tend to be less than 40" (with angled players 3 and 4).  One advantage of the modular control panel is that you can maximize the space for each player.  But I think it's true that four players are going to be cramped no matter what.

[RyoriNoTetsujin]

Nice!  Don't I feel special.  Never thought anybody would be interested beyond the usual "oh here's another cab..."  Anyway...

To confirm, my CP has 4" of overhang from the pedestal.  Total width of the pedestal is 11.5" (10 + .75 +.75)

Not to hijack your thread, but this idea of a hybrid panel is pretty interesting to me.   You could have a Konami-styled 4-player panel (in other words, add a little more depth on the CP to accomodate angled P3 and P4.)  In this case, P3 and P4 (your outside edge players) could be a static setup, while your centralized P1 and P2 are where your modular panels could go.  I mean, how many games are there with specialized controls that ALSO support 4-players?  The space above the modular area could have all your coin/start/admin buttons (if you swing that way) similar to your current design.  It might be one hell of a huge panel... but you are dealing with 4-player simultaneous.  Get a big enough monitor and nobody will notice how huge the CP is!   

Hmm... i don't feel like I'm describing this well ... maybe I'll bust out the Sketchup today.

[(+_+)]

1) I believe the center support which you are using to hold up the control panel will definitely interfere with the players using the blue/yellow buttons/joysticks.   The player's feet might hit the support, so you might want to think about whether this will truely be a problem for you or not.   

Instead of having the pedestal run from top to bottom in one straight line, why don't you consider angling it back towards the cab after about 6-8" and widen it a bit to support a nice keyboard drawer.

Current extremely rudimentary drawing
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      _|__   Someones eggplant foot protruding

Suggestive and equally rudimentary drawing

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    | ___   Someones eggplant foot not protruding

[RyoriNoTetsujin]

1) I believe the center support which you are using to hold up the control panel will definitely interfere with the players using the blue/yellow buttons/joysticks.   The player's feet might hit the support, so you might want to think about whether this will truely be a problem for you or not.   

Instead of having the pedestal run from top to bottom in one straight line, why don't you consider angling it back towards the cab after about 6-8" and widen it a bit to support a nice keyboard drawer.

Current extremely rudimentary drawing
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      _|__   Someones eggplant foot protruding

Suggestive and equally rudimentary drawing

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    | ___   Someones eggplant foot not protruding

I agree that this is an option, and a stylish one at that (not to mention I absolutely love the phrase "eggplant foot" !!) but I don't know if it's necessary.  In my experience thusfar, nobody stands that close to the CP that the pedestal is an issue.  If you literally "belly-up" to the CP, handling the controls becomes uncomfortable.  OTOH, if you were using bar stools (like we have) then it's not the feet so much as the knees that actually might come into play with the pedestal/CP.  Again, I'm only speaking from my experience. YMMV.

The other thing to consider there is the change in the amount and type of woodworking you will have to be able to do.

As for widening the pedestal for a keyboard drawer - that's a great idea if you were considering that! 

[ironpoet]

I was planning to avoid the keyboard drawer, since I don't think I'd use it that often.  The modular design will require a usb hub for trackballs and spinners, so if I ever need the keyboard I can just plug it in and rest it on the spacer panels.  How much use do people get out of the keyboard?

I considered leaving P3 and P4 as static (not modular) controls  and either angling them or just leaving them as they are.  But I figure if I'm going to go halfway modular I may as well go all the way.  I have half-formed dreams of hooking up three steering wheels for someday for Super Sprint or Super Off Road.  Or maybe three trackballs for Rampart.  I have no idea if I'll ever get around to any of it, but it would be nice to leave the option available.

[ironpoet]

I had also toyed with the idea of attempting a curved modular panel, but I thought it might be beyond my woodworking skilled.

[SavannahLion]

I had also toyed with the idea of attempting a curved modular panel, but I thought it might be beyond my woodworking skilled.

You really don't have to do a curved modular panel. Cut the rounded CP edge and the modular components would be rectangular pieces that fit inside an appropriate sized hole in the center. Save yourself the hassle of measuring the circular cut required for each piece.

 A segmented panel in the shape of a trapezoid with three exposed for the player controls would also function well, or if you wanted to get fancy half an octagon where player 1 & 2 edges are angled slightly. If you offset 3 & 4 then the actual modular pieces would be interchangeable with 1 & 2.