Building a mame-based, real arcade.

[Benny]

I was was wondering if anyone has tried this yet and what legal issues, etc. may be involved.  I friend and I are seriously thinking about opening a small arcade, using homebuilt cabs with mame software.  Has anyone heard of anyone doing this?  Also, is this an issue as far as ROMs, hardware is concerned?  I'm assuming that it would be legal, as long as I owned the actual ROMs / boards of the games that would be available for playing - any thoughts?

                                                                    Benny.

[Buddabing]

From the MAME Legal FAQ:

Q: Can I put a computer running MAME in a cabinet and charge people to use it?

A: Absolutely not. According to the license you may not use MAME for commercial activity.

[Benny]

Damn - I can't believe I overlooked that!  I was concentrating on the Hardware way too much.  Thanks!  Guess I'll have to get this thing going the hard way - cold, hard cash for real cabs!



                                                                             B.J.R.

[ChadTower]

Real cabs are cheaper.

[bfauska]

Real cabs are cheaper.

That's a bit of a broad statement.

On a cab per cab basis, yes.  On a per game basis no way, not even a little.  For an arcade environment it is a difficult balance to achieve I suppose.  You could have 10 machines capable of playing 1000 or more games each, but the 11th customer is SOL.  If you have dedicated cabs it has to be games people like.  Good thing the answer has basically been handed to you...  NO MAME FOR PROFIT.  You may be best off with some cabs that run several boards.  I suppose you could also use the boards that run several games, but I think those are legally sketchy also, I'm sure somebody will chime in who knows better, but I remember hearing someplace that the licensing isn't quite right on those.

Good luck with you business adventure, I think that it may be a good era for some retro arcades to start opening up, the age of people who were around during the boom is prime retail and amusement demographic, I would totally dig a place that was all about being an arcade based on the early 80's to early 90's experience.  Most of us were too young to drink when we enjoyed the arcades the first time, but I think that a bar with this environment would do fairly well if it were done right.

[SithMaster]

whos to say he couldnt use mame without letting anybody know he is?  im sure someone somewhere is already doing this.

[Tiger-Heli]

whos to say he couldnt use mame without letting anybody know he is?  im sure someone somewhere is already doing this.

The question was whether it was legal, not whether he could do it.

It is still a violation of the MAME license and trademark whether he tells anyone what he is doing or not.

[Tiger-Heli]

I was was wondering if anyone has tried this yet and what legal issues, etc. may be involved.  I friend and I are seriously thinking about opening a small arcade, using homebuilt cabs with mame software.  Has anyone heard of anyone doing this?  Also, is this an issue as far as ROMs, hardware is concerned?  I'm assuming that it would be legal, as long as I owned the actual ROMs / boards of the games that would be available for playing - any thoughts?
                                                                    Benny.

As mentioned, doing anything like this involving MAME would be a major violation of the terms of the MAME license.

I am not sure of the legality of doing what you propose outside of MAME.  You say you would own the actual boards of the games that were available for playing, and I don't know that say, RetroCade has as restrictive of a license as MAME does.

My gut instinct says its a bad idea as it makes emulation more main stream and brings more focus on the issue, but the other side of my brain says the cat's been out of the bag for three or four years now, if anyone really cared.

FWIW.

[ChadTower]

On a cab per cab basis, yes.  On a per game basis no way, not even a little.

A multigame cab requires licenses.  Licenses are big $$$ if you're not operating the original dedicated existing cab.

Hardware is cheap.  Licenses for software are not.

[RayB]

Considering you need the state tax permits/stickers for operating coin-operated equipment, I'd be curious to know how that would work out. Not to mention your insurance premiums when the insurer finds out the equipment is "home built" and certainly not certified.

[bfauska]

A multigame cab requires licenses.  Licenses are big $$$ if you're not operating the original dedicated existing cab.

Hardware is cheap.  Licenses for software are not.

Good point, I was ignoring the actually make it legal aspect of it.  Paying fees to use each title would indeed add up.

[Benny]

Thanks again for all the input - I also didn't realize you needed state / city registration for amusement equipment - I thought it was only for gambling machines, etc.

I still think a retro-arcade would be a good idea, combined with a bar / concession stand, it could be a "survivable" business.  I may just have to slowly accumulate a lot of cabs and do a physical rotation.  The only thing that sucks is that you couldn't do a play-off contest or something like that, where you'd have 4 or five of the same games on the floor (like the Ms.Pacman contest in the 'Arcade 84' movie). 

Maybe a mutli-board capable "real" cab is a possibility. 

[shardian]

I also didn't realize you needed state / city registration for amusement equipment - I thought it was only for gambling machines, etc.

The man would slap a tax sticker on your bottom if they could.

[ChadTower]

Considering you need the state tax permits/stickers for operating coin-operated equipment, I'd be curious to know how that would work out. Not to mention your insurance premiums when the insurer finds out the equipment is "home built" and certainly not certified.

That is a damn good and very subtle point.  You're thinking of commercially running electric devices that aren't UL certified.  I wonder if a liability insurer would even touch it.

[RayB]

I still think a retro-arcade would be a good idea, combined with a bar / concession stand, it could be a "survivable" business.  I may just have to slowly accumulate a lot of cabs and do a physical rotation.  The only thing that sucks is that you couldn't do a play-off contest or something like that, where you'd have 4 or five of the same games on the floor (like the Ms.Pacman contest in the 'Arcade 84' movie). 

Well if you're serious, then you should be doing your due diligence (research!). You would discover this HAS been done and seems to be working.

Most popular would be Ground Kontrol, but search this forum for the arcade called 1984 (I think that's what it's called).

[ChadTower]

Is 1984 turning any profit?  That was a hobbiest venture, IIRC, and their business plan had a likely ceiling of breaking even.

[CheffoJeffo]

Don't forget Ground Kontrol

If you ARE truly interested, then I would strongly suggest grabbing the March 2007 issue of GameRoom Magazine and reading the article on Ground Kontrol. The article is based on a discussion with Clay Cowgill (who has forgotten more about classic gaming than most of us will ever know), one of the owners.

Cheers

[shardian]

Is 1984 turning any profit?  That was a hobbiest venture, IIRC, and their business plan had a likely ceiling of breaking even.

There was a good interview/writeup about 1984 in the March Issue of Gameroom magazine. In short, yes they are making money, but mainly due to their combination of entertainment and games than just the games.

[CheffoJeffo]

There was a good interview/writeup about 1984 in the March Issue of Gameroom magazine. In short, yes they are making money, but mainly due to their combination of entertainment and games than just the games.

Which page was the writeup about 1984 on  ? 

Kev -- did you short me on pages again ?!? 

 

[shardian]

There was a good interview/writeup about 1984 in the March Issue of Gameroom magazine. In short, yes they are making money, but mainly due to their combination of entertainment and games than just the games.

Which page was the writeup about 1984 on  ? 

Kev -- did you short me on pages again ?!? 

 

You had it right. My bad... 
smartass...

[CheffoJeffo]

There was a good interview/writeup about 1984 in the March Issue of Gameroom magazine. In short, yes they are making money, but mainly due to their combination of entertainment and games than just the games.

Which page was the writeup about 1984 on  ? 

Kev -- did you short me on pages again ?!? 

 

You had it right. My bad... 
smartass...

Thanks for commenting.

 

[bfauska]

smartass...

Oh, how cute is that font?

[CheffoJeffo]

smartass...

Oh, how cute is that font?

Great work so far, i would use a different style lettering though.

[ChadTower]

You're getting a little creepy now. 

[Jeff AMN]

I've always wanted to try putting an arcade up in this area to see how it does, but the county has laws against having a certain number of arcade cabinets or pinball machines in a single location. I live in a suburb and they frown on any sot of place that tends to attract groups of kids coming in from the city to hang out.

I can understand all that though. But still, I wish they'd at least give it a chance.

[CheffoJeffo]

You're getting a little creepy now. 

What exactly do you mean by that there sick freak? 

[ChadTower]

I miss the speedbags pictures.

[CheffoJeffo]

I miss the speedbags pictures.

Thanks for the kind words stinger.

[shardian]

Someone has a little too much time on their hands.

[CheffoJeffo]

Someone has a little too much time on their hands.

Some people must be really bored at home   

[Chris G]

Careful Cheffo - Saint may decide to retitle you "The Tommy Swami" soon. 

[CheffoJeffo]

Careful Cheffo - Saint may decide to retitle you "The Tommy Swami" soon. 

I was just TRYING to be funny 

[RayB]

I can understand all that though. But still, I wish they'd at least give it a chance.

Actually, I don't understand that. In my experience it's boredom and nothing to do that's responsible for a majority of mischevious teen behaviour, like resorting to drinking and bush parties, etc...

Give em a supervised place to hang out and that kind of behaviour is less likely.

[ChadTower]

He said kids "from the city", which would be someone else's kids. 

[horseboy]

I think the thinking on Jeff's town's part is "if they don't come in from the city at all, they won't cause trouble." If there aren't arcades and whatnot, they won't come around.

[geomartin]

I think the thinking on Jeff's town's part is "if they don't come in from the city at all, they won't cause trouble." If there aren't arcades and whatnot, they won't come around.

Apparently the town would prefer it's kids go to the 'city' to get into trouble.

[ChadTower]

You can tell your own kids to stay local.  You can't tell someone else's kids to stop coming around.

[Jeff AMN]

You can tell your own kids to stay local.  You can't tell someone else's kids to stop coming around.

That's just it. When you live in a very conservative area where property values are high, everybody is paranoid that "those young hooligans" are going to come in and spray paint every wall in the town. Honestly, I don't think it would be much of an issue, but I totally understand their reluctance to open the door.

[Crax]

Jeff, do you live in Bountiful?  I don't know what kind of regulations they have now, but growing up, I always went to the arcade at the card shop inside of the old 5 points mall.  They had a couple pins and about 7 machines or so.  There was another pizza place (Peter Piper's?) that had quite a few as well.  I grew up in WX and I remember someone trying to start one there but getting denied by the city.

[ChadTower]

That's just it. When you live in a very conservative area where property values are high, everybody is paranoid that "those young hooligans" are going to come in and spray paint every wall in the town. Honestly, I don't think it would be much of an issue, but I totally understand their reluctance to open the door.

Most places I lived had few arcades, and of the arcades that did exist, they were the place to buy low end drugs of the type kids get.  Almost always being sold by older kids from other towns.  In some of the arcades I remember it was hard to just hang out and play without having someone approach you at least once.  The arcade was where the kids with a little spare cash went.

[Jeff AMN]

Jeff, do you live in Bountiful?  I don't know what kind of regulations they have now, but growing up, I always went to the arcade at the card shop inside of the old 5 points mall.  They had a couple pins and about 7 machines or so.  There was another pizza place (Peter Piper's?) that had quite a few as well.  I grew up in WX and I remember someone trying to start one there but getting denied by the city.

Yeah, I'm in Bountiful.

I actually lived in Woods Cross until I was 11 and then moved up to Davis Blvd. in Bountiful. After spending college living in Springville, I've moved back to Bountiful with my wife.

Hansen's card shop was awesome. However, they shut it down because of the regulations. The city imposed it and they fought hard to keep it open. When it failed, they moved on to make souvenirs or something like that. I used to ride my bike down there every Saturday to grab a few packs of Garbage Pail Kids and drop quarters into their machines like crazy.

We found out about the regulations when my dad considered buying a small space to fill with arcade games. It was just before Hansen's card shop shut down that they were passed. Bountiful is VERY against the gathering of teens at any place at any time.

Just out of curiosity, when did you graduate high school? I graduated from BHS in '99, but I knew tons of people from WX (where my brother actually graduated in '94).

[Crax]

Graduated from WX in '98, but lived in the part of WX that went to Millcreek instead of South Davis for Jr. High so I knew a lot of people that went to Bountiful as well.  Live in Kaysville now, but my mom/dad are still in WX.

I rode my bike there and to 7-11 all the time as well 

[Jeff AMN]

Heh, we probably faced off plenty of times on that Street Fighter II: Champion Edition that was in 7-11 next to the Slurpee machines. I went to Millcreek too, actually. Small world...

[clanggedin]

My Dad owns a small building where I live this is now right across the street from the new high school that is going in. I have thought about turning it into and arcade type hangout that opeens during lunch / after school. I would offer the games for free and charge them for food.

Call it FreePlayz.

The problem is that the build is so old that it might cost me tons in making it comply with code for a public eating establishment. It only has one bathroonm right now and I don't think it's handicap accessible. I may have to wait until my mom and sisters are tired of having a floral shop in another building my dad owns and put a pool hall in there.

There is nothing exciting to do where I live except make babies, which seems like that is increasing each year with the high school students.

[ChadTower]

You'll want to look into the bylaws regarding arcades and their proximity to schools.  It may just not be allowed.

Of course, if you make the games free, you'll get 99% of the visitors just hanging out and never buying anything.  There has to be something to make money, the food won't do it, and you can't give them incentive to hang out without spending money if you want to run a business.

[FrizzleFried]

You'll want to look into the bylaws regarding arcades and their proximity to schools.  It may just not be allowed.

Of course, if you make the games free, you'll get 99% of the visitors just hanging out and never buying anything.  There has to be something to make money, the food won't do it, and you can't give them incentive to hang out without spending money if you want to run a business.

I was thinking of doing something similar but for adults and serve drinks, etc...think "beer bar" with a crap load of classic games,  a pool table,  foosball, etc...

[ChadTower]

You're describing a regular bar.

[SithMaster]

make it 10 usd to enter for free play games and extra for food.  foosball is good since it doesnt need power to run, unlike air hockey.  the only thing i would do i get a piece of plastic to cover the foosball so nothing goes flying into a monitor.   oooo make shredder's lair from tmnt the movie.  then if you ever feel like it you can start a gang.

[rovingmind]

make it 10 usd to enter for free play games and extra for food.

They call that nickelworld in Ohio.  Cover charge at the door and five cents per game.  Mostly family kids parties there. 

[clanggedin]

We have a nickelcade about 20 miles from my house. They have tons of games there. It's like 3 bucks to enter and a nickel per game, unless it's a brand new game, then it's 2 or 3 nickels.

I think I am fine with putting anarcade at this location. There was a hamburger joint close by and it had a couple of games in it. There is also an elementary school across the street from this location.

This is a relatively small town so I am pretty sure they haven't thought of putting a law against an establishment of my type next to a school. Besides I have friends on the city council and family that work for the city. I also help fix the police department's computers and I don't charge them. They owe me a couple of favors.

I just need to figure out a way to make it profitable enough to support itself.

[StephenH]

I knew someone who worked at an amusement company that used MAME in the past.   I couldn't beleive it when I found out.  I am not sure I would advocate people doing this commercially though.

[Tiger-Heli]

Also, I am pretty sure MAMEdev's policy is againg commercial use . . .

Meaning having the machine on free-play is still prohibited in a commercial environment, as you are using the machine to draw people to the business.

Of course, using other emulators might be permissable.

[ChadTower]

That wouldn't make using the games that those emulators run permissable.

[rovingmind]

if you ebayed a dead board to bolt to the inside bottom of the cabinet theoretically you might be able to squeak by, as long as you only have that same game loaded into the emulator. 

Of course you're still going to need an emulator good for commercial use.  And you still have that whole UL approved issue.

And you would probably have to have a pretty good lawyer.

[ChadTower]

if you ebayed a dead board to bolt to the inside bottom of the cabinet theoretically you might be able to squeak by, as long as you only have that same game loaded into the emulator. 

That has yet to be challenged legally that I know of.  Better have that lawyer handy.

[shardian]

I am not understanding the UL approved thing. You have a UL approved pc and a UL approved PC monitor. What is the problem?

[ChadTower]

When you dramatically alter it, you remove your UL certification.  If you didn't decase the PC or monitor, those devices would probably still be fine.

The CP/coin door wiring would not be covered, obviously, and you'd have to not alter the marquee light from its out of the box configuration as well.  Your power supply may or may not be proper by UL/insurance standards depending on how closely you matched its official use purpose/specs.

[rovingmind]

heh,

keep the  cases, use a standard flourescent shelf light for the marquee, use Jamma wiring harness for the controls.....

maybe a fruit machine key encoder?

now all we need is that lawyer and emulator permissions

[ChadTower]

now all we need is that lawyer and emulator permissions

You'd also have to convince the insurance company to buy the fact that all of the individual devices are UL certified and thus the whole unit is UL certified.  That assumption isn't necessarily true.  Remember, it's all about covering liability, which isn't necessarily a rational set of requirements.

[rovingmind]

Heh heh
Then maybe 2 lawyers?

Ok i'll stop

A commercial emulator cab filled arcade will most likely always be an issue of doing it without telling anyone. 

now all we need is that lawyer and emulator permissions

You'd also have to convince the insurance company to buy the fact that all of the individual devices are UL certified and thus the whole unit is UL certified.  That assumption isn't necessarily true.  Remember, it's all about covering liability, which isn't necessarily a rational set of requirements.

[shardian]

Well then something to consider: If your mame cab catches fire and does damage to your home, would your insurance company refuse to pay for the same reasons?

[ChadTower]

Well then something to consider: If your mame cab catches fire and does damage to your home, would your insurance company refuse to pay for the same reasons?

No, because your homeowner's policy is entirely different than a business liability policy.  You're not covering a fire with your liability policy, you're covering injury or other harm to a customer.

[saint]

Multi-Jamma.  http://multijamma.com/

Buy your indivudal boardsets legally, throw them in a multi-jamma cabinet.

Damn hard business to break into though. Ask Clay Cowgill about the arcade he's an owner of, they seem to be making a success of it but it's going to be a hell of a lot of work.

Edit - yeah, ok, I should read the whole thread before replying. It was Groundkontrol I was talking about...

Thanks again for all the input - I also didn't realize you needed state / city registration for amusement equipment - I thought it was only for gambling machines, etc.

I still think a retro-arcade would be a good idea, combined with a bar / concession stand, it could be a "survivable" business.  I may just have to slowly accumulate a lot of cabs and do a physical rotation.  The only thing that sucks is that you couldn't do a play-off contest or something like that, where you'd have 4 or five of the same games on the floor (like the Ms.Pacman contest in the 'Arcade 84' movie). 

Maybe a mutli-board capable "real" cab is a possibility.