Buying a first home

[ChadTower]

Home ownership is subjective because it dictates the lifestyle a person leads.  People value different aspects of their lifestyle differently and the weight given to each attribute skews the equation.  There is no pure buy point for your home.  There is for any other property but not for your primary residence.

[AtomSmasher]

Math is difficult.  Some people are really good at painting.  Others are good at analytical reasoning.  Others are good at music.  Others spacial reasoning.  I'm pretty decent with math, though I don't enjoy it and tend to avoid it.  It sounds like information I'd be really interested in, but I don't entirely understand the formula.  What is a buy ratio?  Do you come up with a number like 65/100 that you should by a house, or the probability that you should buy versus rent is .65?  You can't expect a French and Poli Sci major to be especially brilliant in economics and finance.

From what I can tell, his "buy ratio" is if its over 1, then you will be saving money when you buy, and if its less then 1 you will be losing money.  Of course living in a house is much nicer then an apartment, but this is only concerned with finances.

I guess I'll go ahead and run the numbers to find out my buy ratio since jbox is bad at word problems.  Figuring out my exact amount of principle I pay each year would be a PITA, I'll just assume my mortgage payment is all loan interest.  And obviously the numbers are not exact, I don't feel like looking up the exact figures, but they are pretty close to accurate.

(1700*12) / ((1800*12) + 2000 - 6000) = 1.16

I guess that means buying house was a good thing for me.  Even if there are other expenses to owning a house (which there are), I will still come out ahead, or at least even, and I get the benefits of living in a decent sized house instead of a small apartment.  And since the value of my house should be increasing soon (I'm a real estate appraiser, so I keep a close watch on the market and its trends), it makes my house a good investment as well.

[ChadTower]

Don't the flying cows affect your resale value?

[DrewKaree]

You can't expect a French and Poli Sci major to be anywhere close to brilliant in economics or finance or painting or analytical reasoning or music or spacial reasoning or....well, this could go on all day

Fixt


So what I think jbox is trying to say is that he's not sure how to figure out whether or not it might be a good idea for you to buy.  Did I follow all that jbox?

Oh, and for you guys talking about tax breaks at the end of the year and whatnot, in case you didn't know, jbox lives in Oz and they may not have the same setup.  The problem though, is that it doesn't seem like you guys aren't picking up that any of those figures you're mentioning to him actually fit into his formula.  You just need to know where to put 'em.

Just because his laws might not be the same and their tax structure might not equate doesn't mean you can't figure out some method to determine if it might or might not be a good proposition to buy instead of rent.

[ChadTower]

Down in Oz can't you just put up a lean-to anywhere you want?

[DrewKaree]

Down in Oz can't you just put up a lean-to anywhere you want?

I think you have to go out in the bush to do something like that, demonstrating that even in Australia, BUSH WINS!

[Wade]

I guess that means buying house was a good thing for me.  Even if there are other expenses to owning a house (which there are), I will still come out ahead, or at least even, and I get the benefits of living in a decent sized house instead of a small apartment.  And since the value of my house should be increasing soon (I'm a real estate appraiser, so I keep a close watch on the market and its trends), it makes my house a good investment as well.

Well, in your case, you are actually paying less each month now that you bought a house.  So in that sense, it was a good move.  It's unfortunate that housing is so expensive in your area (or, you demand a very nice apartment!)  It's not all about money available each month though, otherwise a person would be better of leasing a new vehicle every year or two.  Obviously, buying a house or car are better ideas the longer you stay with them, in general.  (my opinion)

Wade

[shardian]

If you are modest in your purchase, then almost always a house payment will be less than rent (assuming rent does not include utilities).

However, buying a house ties you down and when it comes time to move you will almost certainly be stuck paying your house payment for a while on top of your new rent/mortgage payment. Alot of people cannot handle this financial burden, especially with the housing market down. It may be months before you can sell the house.

[shardian]

And Wade, you better be careful. Multiple posts in one day...you might become a worthless forum junkie like the rest of us.

[DrewKaree]

And Wade, you better be careful. Multiple posts in one day...you might become a worthless forum junkie like the rest of us.

I am NOT a...uh....um... welcome Wade

[shmokes]

. . . in case you didn't know, jbox lives in Oz and they may not have the same setup . . .


. . .Just because his laws might not be the same and their tax structure might not equate doesn't mean . . .

Mommy, the strange man is arguing with himself again.

[jbox]

*sigh* I started my post with "I don't understand why people find this so hard", and I still don't. Let's try this one more time, very slowly for the kids from the special bus who never mastered ratios at school:

(a) people who rent shouldn't even be paying off the interest on their landlord's loan because in if they make a loss usually they can do something called "negative gearing" (getting a double tax deduction) on the *loss* of the loan AND because after twenty years they also now have a big shiny property they own

(b) if you *are* paying off your landlord's interest (or worse) then you are paying too much and should move, but I'm sure there's a myriad of excuses people will make about how that's not possible

(c) comparing a city apartment to a suburban house (for example) makes no sense because as we have seen from the prices people have thrown around in this thread - location, location, location!

(d) if you are serious about buying a home then I am going to assume you have already got some idea what your maximum repayment budget really is (and that you also know what kind of rent properties of that type *in* that area are charging).

So, let's say that you have a choice between renting and buying. If you buy your repayment looks like this:
mortgage repayment = interest (bad) + principal (good)

Alternatively, if you're renting then your budget should look like this:
same income = rent (bad) + savings (good)

Both interest and rent are bad because the money is gone for good (although I'd still rather give that money to another person than another bank). The biggest problem people seem to have is understanding that when you rent the excess money doesn't magically turn into iPods all by itself!     If you are one of those people who are simply incapable of sticking to a damn budget, and thus saving the difference, then go buy a house already. Otherwise:

interest (bad) + principal (good) == rent (bad) + savings (good)

which leads us to:

buy ratio == principal / savings == rent / interest

which is a ratio (just like trade ratio = exports / imports) that tells you whether you're likely to be better off buying a house (> 1) or whether or not you're better off renting (< 1). If you get a number anywhere over (say) 0.9 then it's time to make an appointment with the bank.

And yes, there's eleventy brazillion things you have to take into account if you want to work the figures out accurate to ten decimal places, but my experience is that people who are so vague about home ownership are either (a) hippies, or (b) people with little (or no) savings. If they listen to all the other Talking Points(tm) of people whose income is derived from getting people to buy and sell property they can easily forget that at the end of the day the question is whether or not your money is actually being saved (in either a house or in shares), or whether your money is being lost (to either a bank or a landlord). All those other details may fine-tune the numbers, but they don't change the fact that interest and rent are BOTH dead money, while there is no good reason why people can't save money while they are still renting. 

The funniest thing is that this is not the first (or last) time I've tried to point this out to people, and it always cracks me up how the "wanna-be Enron's" always try to come back with numbers they 'feel' prove me wrong when in actual fact the more they exaggerate their figures the more it proves the ratio nails the important details (edit: which I notice a couple of the brighter sparks have already picked up on).   

[AtomSmasher]

Yes, both rent and interest are dead money, the one significant difference is interest is a tax write-off while rent is not.  That makes a large difference.

I guess in Australia rent is a lot lower then the average mortgage payment, that simply isn't true in America (or at least not in the Los Angeles area).  That would explain why you seem to think buying a house is such a bad idea. 

As I have pointed out numerous times, buying my house actually saves me money annually, plus I will make even more equity when the housing values increase.  Hell, if I wanted to I could of immediately flipped the house and made a nice $20,000-25,000 profit.

You seem to think that I could of just rented in a cheaper area, well yes, I could of, but then I also would of lived in a much dumpier area where gangs are starting to take over.  Personally I prefer to live in the nicer areas, especially since I can afford to.

Honestly, I can't believe how much better you think you are then most people.  Its quite sickening.

[shmokes]

Jbox, you sound ridiculous.  You didn't always know all this stuff.  You act like it's just common sense that everything you pay in the beginning is interest when, of course, you only know that because you specifically learned it, not because you simply intuited it out of thin air.  You had to learn all these things at one time, meaning before you learned it, you didn't know any of it.  Do you think the entire world is supposed to suddenly know all about something the moment Jbox does?

With that out of the air, I still have questions about your formula.  You say that interest is equal to rent, because they are both dead money, but that doesn't quite make sense to me because one is never-ending, while the other is somewhat fixed.  One day in the not so distant future, don't you pay off all the interest, at which point you're practically paying your mortgage payment to yourself in equity?  The formula also appears to ignore changes in market value.  I'm under the impression that the real estate market tends to perpetually rise in the long-term, with spikes and valleys in the short term, but when the value of your house increases solely because of supply/demand isn't that large amounts of free money that a renter would never see?

If you're going to be an ---uvula--- about how smart you are, at least be as smart as you are claiming to be.  Or I'm just wrong about all this stuff, cos like I say, I don't know anything about it, but either way you sound like an ---uvula---.

[boykster]

I don't see how you can save $6000 in actual taxes just from the house. That is just crazy.

I paid nearly $30k last year in mortgage interest and property taxes.  It at my nominal tax rate of 28% that saved me plenty 

[jbox]

I don't talk this way about software or computers or other information I know is only picked up by actual extended studies, only about things like gambling and share markets and bank loans because for some reason people decide that the maths is less important then 'their gut'. Why people go out of their way to make home loans so complicated when most people have had car loans and credit cards for years now is apparently well and truly completely beyond me. 

Seriously, I don't see any point trying to discuss this if people are incapable or unwilling to stop, take a breath, understand that I am actually pro-home ownership but am also anti-debt, and then keeping clear in their minds at all times an understanding of the difference between principal, interest and savings. If you don't that's fine (it's not my home loan) but please just skip my posts because that formula will be worse than useless for you. As an example, you can't "pay off your interest" any more than you can't pay off your rent. Ever. Now everybody goes "Well, obviously I meant the principal" because moving the goal posts is always a good way to try and weasel out of being wrong. Rent and interest are both wasted money, but they should never, ever, be equal. If they are even close it means either (a) you're being taken advantage of; or (b) you are living on the moon.

AtomSmasher apparently thinks that the rental market in the USA overall is ---Cleveland steamer---, and since I don't live there I don't care if that's true or not. I do know however that if it is true the formula he is bagging actually *agrees* with him that any time rental rates approach (or crest) the expected interest repayments on the equivalent loan then it's time to settle down with Mary-Sue and git to raising the litter of ankle-biters. But even though people can say all kinds of nasty things about someone who chooses to rent while building their share portfolio which they can "take" overseas with them, apparently saying some people get a home loan a few years before they are ready for it makes me "sickening"? 

[jbox]

jbox lives in Oz and they may not have the same setup

Heh heh, yep, in Oz you can always use a spiffy hat to make a "free" withdrawal from your bank account.

[DrewKaree]

jbox lives in Oz and they may not have the same setup

Heh heh, yep, in Oz you can always use a spiffy hat to make a "free" withdrawal from your bank account.

See?  There's your problem.  Over here we have holes we can breathe out of in our "hats".  You ain't gittin' enuff oxygen over there on Fantasy Island

[shardian]

Had a post typed out, but decided to let jbox lower public opinion of himself a few more notches before chiming in.

[Wade]

...The formula also appears to ignore changes in market value.  I'm under the impression that the real estate market tends to perpetually rise in the long-term, with spikes and valleys in the short term, but when the value of your house increases solely because of supply/demand isn't that large amounts of free money that a renter would never see?

Not really.  The equity built in your house is not really money you can use.  You have to live somewhere.  If in 5-10 years (or more) you sell your house at a handsome profit, it usually doesn't do much good because you still have to buy another house which also has increased in price.  All you've succeeded in doing is getting another loan and put yourself futher from owning your home.  In extremely rare cases, people build enough equity to own a home entirely.

It's arguable that your equity can be used to get more loans, and this is true, and a LOT of people do this.  However, I'd suggest that this accomplishes nothing positive.  All it allows you to do is build more debt.  There's no free money in your home equity, unless you decide to become homeless.

Although jbox is abrasive, I agree with his assertion that it's often better to rent+save than buy a house.

My wife and I saved more than she earned for a couple of years and stayed in a cheap, but safe, apartment. (a sacrifice that very few people we know would "tolerate")  We put a lot down, and in 5 years have about $150k in equity in our house, which is big (12 room, 4 bath, 2 car garage) and in a very nice neighborhood with slow but reliable growth.  Fifteen more years and we'll own it outright (4.75% fixed loan).  Eventually we'll probably trade it for a smaller and less expensive place, or split it into more than one home.  The reason this will work (aside from illness/death etc.) is we are *determined* to stay in this house and have decided to make the best career possible in this area, versus move a lot to try to further my career.  We'll be close to paying our home off when most of our friends are taking new loans to buy their 3rd and 4th homes.

We took advantage of every possible angle (cheapest house in an expensive neighborhood, great interest rate, high down payment, etc.), bought a house with our future family in mind (rather than a "starter home"), and bought at the limit of what I felt I could afford at the time (of course the bank would have gone a LOT further).  Fortunately, everything has worked out, my career has gone well and our payment is a small portion of my income (about 15%).

It should be mentioned that it's *entirely* possible to get into a situation where you owe more on your house than you can sell it for.  I personally know people in this situation, and they just have to suck it up and keep paying their overpriced house payments.  Or, get a big loan / take a huge loss, just to get out from under the house.

Buying a home isn't something ANYONE should take lightly.  It is the single biggest expense for most people, and messing it up can seriously screw yourself financially.

Wade

[DrewKaree]

Had a post typed out, but decided to let jbox lower public opinion of himself a few more notches before chiming in.

I think he's great!  Youse guys are all just sore that he's got something that makes your "gut feeling" more akin to indigestion

[Wade]

And Wade, you better be careful. Multiple posts in one day...you might become a worthless forum junkie like the rest of us.

Hey now...  I've been a worthless forum junkie before.  I still have my days.

Wade

[jbox]

God I've never been so insulted in my life. All that extra work and the best you can come up with is "abrasive" and "ridiculous". My earlier work got rave reviews like "---sufferer of cranial-rectal-inversion---" and "sickening", but I guess it's true that people can be desensitised to almost any depravity after a few exposures. 

C'mon guys, this is the kind of stuff Chad can do *without even consciously thinking*, surely we can at least build up to "pretentious ---tallywhacker---" or "mathtard" or anything vaguely more original than four-eyes? I've blantently insulted AtomSmasher for claiming that debt ridden students should be able to net a bargain in the same league as a well-off REAL ESTATE APPRAISER can, and not-so-subtly insinuated that I can mathematically prove how stupid y'all are with a one line equation that sums up 99% of all your hard earned "gut knowledge". Show some passion people, this is science at it's most antagonistic and you can't even muster a "I bet you're being funded by Big Rental!" 

[AtomSmasher]

I definately understand the difference between principal, interest and savings.  Actually I have to for my job, one of the ways we determine the value of a property is the income approach and it deals directly with mortgage amount, interest and rental amounts.  If you buy a house/condo/apartment complex with the intention of renting it, the bank hires an appraiser (someone like me) to determine if the property can make enough rent to pay off the monthly mortgage payment, if it can't, then they generally won't give them the loan.  I haven't done anything more complex then a 4-unit complex, but its basically the same for any rental property.  To make claims that rent should be less then the mortgage payment is just absurd, there would be no reason for most people to invest in rental properties.  I also know a number of people who rent out various properties.  My sister rents out a house, and my friend rents out two houses and a condo, every one of those properties rent is higher or the same as the mortgage payment.

The amount of rent on a property should pretty much always be as much or higher then the interest amount, at least thats how it is here.  If its not that way in Australia, then your absolutely right about renting instead of buying in Australia.

[AtomSmasher]

God I've never been so insulted in my life. All that extra work and the best you can come up with is "abrasive" and "ridiculous". My earlier work got rave reviews like "---sufferer of cranial-rectal-inversion---" and "sickening", but I guess it's true that people can be desensitised to almost any depravity after a few exposures. 

C'mon guys, this is the kind of stuff Chad can do *without even consciously thinking*, surely we can at least build up to "pretentious ---tallywhacker---" or "mathtard" or anything vaguely more original than four-eyes? I've blantently insulted AtomSmasher for claiming that debt ridden students should be able to net a bargain in the same league as a well-off REAL ESTATE APPRAISER can, and not-so-subtly insinuated that I can mathematically prove how stupid y'all are with a one line equation that sums up 99% of all your hard earned "gut knowledge". Show some passion people, this is science at it's most antagonistic and you can't even muster a "I bet you're being funded by Big Rental!" 

Some of us choose not to stoop to your levels and are able to hold a conversation without constantly insulting everyone else. I know I am not an idiot, especially when it comes to math or real estate, so I don't take offense to your insults. It just tells me a lot about the kind of person you are, which is a very sad thing indeed.

edit* heh, freudian slip.  I wrote stupid instead of stoop.

[jbox]

Some of us choose not to stoop to your levels and are able to hold a conversation without constantly insulting everyone else.

Good point. So, what do you think about this guy?

Honestly, I can't believe how much better you think you are then most people.  Its quite sickening.

As I said, I don't live in the USA so it doesn't really matter to me what the market is like there. But if what you say is true, I'm glad I live in Australia where people aren't stupid enough to rent something for more then it costs to buy it. 

[shmokes]

. . . Although jbox is abrasive, I agree with his assertion that it's often better to rent+save than buy a house.

I don't think Jbox is wrong, or at least I have made clear when I've called his statements into question that I, myself, know next to nothing about the subject and could very well be wrong.  The difference between Jbox and you is that while you are both saying essentially the same thing I find myself not thinking you are the slightest bit irritating, while he sounds like a moron.  He gets all bitchy about people using intuition rather than math, and then turns around and gets bitchy that people who have never learned this stuff not being able to intuit it.  THAT'S retarded. 

I started this thread not saying, "I'm buying a new home," but saying, "Here is my circumstance, is buying a home a good idea, or should I rent."  Take a look at the responses.  There was a virtual consensus that buying was a bad idea.  People were coming out of the woodwork saying, "Rent, don't buy."  I then basically said, "Yeah, I see what you mean.  I have definitely decided that buying is a bad idea, but I still have a few questions about this and that, etc."  Jbox's rants about how dumb everyone is came after I had said at least twice that I agreed that buying was a bad idea.  I then said something to the effect of, "Though my decision to rent rather than buy is already made up, I don't quite understand your formula.  What is the buy ratio?"

Jbox's responses are moronic, not for being wrong, but for acting like he never had to ask the same questions.  He only knows this stuff because someone told it to him once upon a time.   



edit: added quote for clarity

[AtomSmasher]

Some of us choose not to stoop to your levels and are able to hold a conversation without constantly insulting everyone else.

Good point. So, what do you think about this guy?

Honestly, I can't believe how much better you think you are then most people.  Its quite sickening.

As I said, I don't live in the USA so it doesn't really matter to me what the market is like there. But if what you say is true, I'm glad I live in Australia where people aren't stupid enough to rent something for more then it costs to buy it. 

I didn't realize commenting how I don't like how you insult everyone to be an insult in and of itself, but if you take it as one, then very well, I guess I did insult you.

edit* I guess I should also add that I don't know why anyone would buy a property with the intent to rent it out in Australia if the rental market is that bad (or good depending on your point of view).

[AtomSmasher]

. . . Although jbox is abrasive, I agree with his assertion that it's often better to rent+save than buy a house.

I don't think Jbox is wrong, or at least I have made clear when I've called his statements into question that I, myself, know next to nothing about the subject and could very well be wrong.  The difference between Jbox and you is that while you are both saying essentially the same thing I find myself not thinking you are the slightest bit irritating, while he sounds like a moron.  He gets all bitchy about people using intuition rather than math, and then turns around and gets bitchy that people who have never learned this stuff not being able to intuit it.  THAT'S retarded. 

I started this thread not saying, "I'm buying a new home," but saying, "Here is my circumstance, is buying a home a good idea, or should I rent."  Take a look at the responses.  There was a virtual consensus that buying was a bad idea.  People were coming out of the woodwork saying, "Rent, don't buy."  I then basically said, "Yeah, I see what you mean.  I have definitely decided that buying is a bad idea, but I still have a few questions about this and that, etc."  Jbox's rants about how dumb everyone is came after I had said at least twice that I agreed that buying was a bad idea.  I then said something to the effect of, "Though my decision to rent rather than buy is already made up, I don't quite understand your formula.  What is the buy ratio?"

Jbox's responses are moronic, not for being wrong, but for acting like he never had to ask the same questions.  He only knows this stuff because someone told it to him once upon a time.   



edit: added quote for clarity

While I don't agree that JBox is right, I do agree that buying a house is probably bad idea for you given your current situation.

[DrewKaree]

C'mon guys, this is the kind of stuff Chad can't do *with his pants on*

Fixt, although I shouldn't have to fix something for someone who's obviously being discreetly funded by Big Rental.

[jbox]

I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people. Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people?!?

I just love the latest revelation - AtomSmasher knows for a fact that renting is more expensive than buying, but he thinks you should rent too! Do you think it's because you want to be French? 

[AtomSmasher]

I just love the latest revelation - AtomSmasher knows for a fact that renting is more expensive than buying, but he thinks you should rent too! Do you think it's because you want to be French? 

He is a student whos only income is from student loans and would need to get 100% financing.  If he's even able to get a loan, it will be at an obscenely high interest rate.  Renting is not a bad idea in that instance.

Shmokes, if your interested in buying a brand new house in the not too distant future, you should look into getting an apartment from equityresidential.com.   They take a small percentage of your rent and put it towards buying a new house (although only if you buy from KB Home last I checked).  I lived in their apartments for 3 years and got around $5000 toward the purchase of my house, which paid for all of the closing costs.  It was definately a good deal and they have apartment complexes all across the country.

[jbox]

See, that really is some excellent advice right there - if you want to buy a house in the near future you should put aside some money each week to save up for a house deposit. Now I feel really dumb for not having suggested that earlier. 

Out of curiosity though, what with the whole "I pay $X,000 less buying a home then renting" talk I would have thought it would be too sickening for you to admit that people with no principle (and thus a higher interest rate) would score low on the R/(I+C) ratio? 

[AtomSmasher]

See, that really is some excellent advice right there - if you want to buy a house in the near future you should put aside some money each week to save up for a house deposit. Now I feel really dumb for not having suggested that earlier. 

Ya, because obviously its exactly the same thing as just putting money in the bank.  Oh wait, the rent at equityapartments is the same as other places, which means its "saving" money that you otherwise wouldn't have.  Crazy.  (actually the rent was the cheapest at their place in my town, which made it even better)

Out of curiosity though, what with the whole "I pay $X,000 less buying a home then renting" talk I would have thought it would be too sickening for you to admit that people with no principle (and thus a higher interest rate) would score low on the R/(I+C) ratio? 

Sorry, but I have this nasty habit of telling the truth, even if it doesn't put a neat little bow on my arguement.

Your obviously just trying to piss me off now which is pointless and immature.  I'm done responding to you jbox, so feel free to continue on about how much smarter you are then everyone.

[jbox]

I'm done responding to you jbox

No you're not. You must confront him one more time, only then will a Jedi you be!

[ChadTower]

If you are modest in your purchase, then almost always a house payment will be less than rent (assuming rent does not include utilities).

Not in MA.  Not at all, unless you're talking about renting a single family house with property (what you would buy).  Those rental properties are almost nonexistant.

[shardian]

The fact is that "the magic formula" is only a single factor amongst a list of factors that have to be considered when facing the buy/rent decision. It is not as simple as a cut and dry "I'll save money this way". In Schmokes case, even if buying was cheaper, it is not in his best interest to buy due to personal circumstances:
-Full-time student
-insecure work situation
-intends to live there for less than 5 years
-no down payment
-has no clue where he will be after 3 years
-will more than likely have to move quickly when time is up
-etc. etc. etc. with things he hasn't told us.

You are also putting yourself in serious financial risk in buying if you can't afford it, or a serious financial set-back screws you. If you rent and something goes wrong, you are out nothing. Worst case scenario, you move to another place overnight pretty much.
If you own a house and something happens, your entire (or at least for the next few years) financial future can be ruined by bankrupcy, poor credit, so-on and so-forth. Foreclosure is not a good thing. In that case, you are out a house and have nothing to show for it.
These are not gut feeling intuitions - they are facts that face alot of people who don't do the proper research and listen to people who give them a "magic formula". The majority of people in this thread own a house in the USA and actually have a clue as to what they are talking about believe it or not, so get off the high horse, pbox.

[shardian]

If you are modest in your purchase, then almost always a house payment will be less than rent (assuming rent does not include utilities).

Not in MA.  Not at all, unless you're talking about renting a single family house with property (what you would buy).  Those rental properties are almost nonexistant.

Well yeah, even here I'm sure I could find a crapper rental for less than buying. I would say that even in your area, a nice 2 bedroom apartment would be more expensive.

In this area, there are alot of rental houses. Rent on them ranges from $500-$1000 depending on the size/location. Owning the same houses probably has a price range of $250-$750 per month. Apartment complexes in my area range from $500 for a single bedroom to $800 for a 2 bedroom.

[ChadTower]

Well yeah, even here I'm sure I could find a crapper rental for less than buying. I would say that even in your area, a nice 2 bedroom apartment would be more expensive.

A decent 2 bedroom apartment in my town runs $100-200 less than my mortgage.  My mortgage is pretty modest compared to market value in my town.  Rent is high but ownership is higher here.  You have to wait years for the cost of living to drive reasonable rent above your mostly fixed mortgage cost, and even then, the mortgage payment increases every year because property taxes go up.

[jbox]

This one?

It does have an awesome view from the top last time I was there though.