When is Wii going to take off?

[Dervacumen]

My brother in law came over last night and I showed him the golf game specifically because I've been thinking about this thread.  I had only played this game once prior to last night, and had a hell of a time putting.

But last night, my Brother in law gets to the green (keep in mind he's never even touched a Wii controller until then) he surverys the green, then gets into his putting stance and putts just like he's on the green on a real course.  He doesn't even look at the screen until he completes his putt.

And his putt is almost perfect.

Then I try to putt, but having read this thread and having had so much trouble the first time I played, I watch the screen as I'm moving the putter (the wiimote) around to see how this thing works.  And for the life of me I can't get the damn game to even register most of my movements.  This goes on for about 2-3 minutes, and my brother in law is now yelling at me to just putt like you normally do.

So I finally take his advice, look down at the fllor at an imaginary ball and putt away.

And damn straight it goes in the cup from 15 feet or so.

We kept it up, and provided I didn't pay attention to the screen while I was putting (I mean when do you ever look at the hole when your putting in real life, anyway) it worked great.  I now think the wiimote does a pretty nice job of capturing the putting experience.

[shmokes]

A #1, the issues are serious and seem to span the entire library of games, including Wario Ware, a game that relies almost exclusively on quick, crude gestures, rather than anything requiring precise sensitivity, and many of the games were pretty bad -- straightening the stack of paper, vacuuming . . .

B #2, I've said a dozen times that I truly hope it is just a software problem -- I just don't expect that it is.  It seems like hardware.  Go into the main menu and point the Wii Remote at the screen and then rotate it like you're manipulating a screwdriver.  Watch how erratic the cursor gets.  It seems like hardware.

I don't discount the possibility that I'm wrong and that 2nd generation games will have got a handle on the accelerometers.  It just seems a little unlikely to me.



As far as golf goes, I don't believe it.  It's not the 15 foot puts that I have a problem with.  It's the 1 and 2 foot puts.  It's when the ball just needs to be tapped in very very lightly.

[ChadTower]

It is possible what you're describing is firmware.  Even dead accurate hardware is only as good as the firmware reading/translating it.  That would be fixable... it would be odd that they got out to market like that but the Xmas deadline is a pretty big motivator.

[Chris G]

Even knee high is just crazy.

I was allowing for the 60 foot, uphill, into-the-wind putts on shaggy greens (aka poor approach shot).   

[Rachel]

Nintendo has made a huge issue of appealing to non-gamers and expanding the market with grandparents and women, etc.. 

As a woman game programmer, ouch. ...

Why ouch?  Older folks and women largely make up the non-gamer population.  Nintendo's strategy has been to tap into largely untapped markets.  And we might even get some more clues as to whether woman have been reluctant to game because the games are not being targeted to them or whether women are just less likely to be gamers...

Ouch was partly from 12:30am and partly from the whole "Women aren't gamers" thought I hear again and again. Women have been gaming in droves since Centipede. Just give us games that don't spend more time on boob-jiggle physics than gameplay. Or how about a genre other than WW2 shooter(Ugh, how many of those have to be made?).  The Wii targeted Everyone but thats not just intuitive controls. My grandparents played Pac-man and my mom and sisters loved Zelda. Look at the 360s most marketed lineup. Gears of War? Fight night? They focus so much attention on making games that drip testosterone that sometimes they seem to forget what brought all of us to these boards. The classics. Centipede? Pengo? Mario Bros? Older games didn't have to be male-specific, bloody and explosive, to be fun. There's not a girl I know who doesn't own at least one system. The market is there and always has been. Companies just have to make titles that don't specifically alienate. Barbie Horse Adventure is not how girls get into games. Civilization 4 is.

As for the controller, admittedly I haven't spent much time with it dev side (came in on a couple of wiikends? to play with it) but the hardware is very capable and it is a great platform to develop on. The better games and better use of the wiimote really are coming. And keep in mind, a lot of people don't have an issue with it. They just seem to naturally be able to use it. More forgiving controls take time, and larger testgroups. We have that now. (as well as resources, now that publishers realize the Wii is Winning the console war, not laying about dead last)

Shmokes: I'm not sure what would cause your pointer to wobble when you rotate it unless your hand is wobbling, you're at an odd angle to the sensor, or there is ambient light around that interferes with it. UTR devside. (I've gotta get a commercial wii one of these days...)

[AtomSmasher]

Ouch was partly from 12:30am and partly from the whole "Women aren't gamers" thought I hear again and again. Women have been gaming in droves since Centipede. Just give us games that don't spend more time on boob-jiggle physics than gameplay. Or how about a genre other than WW2 shooter(Ugh, how many of those have to be made?).  The Wii targeted Everyone but thats not just intuitive controls. My grandparents played Pac-man and my mom and sisters loved Zelda. Look at the 360s most marketed lineup. Gears of War? Fight night? They focus so much attention on making games that drip testosterone that sometimes they seem to forget what brought all of us to these boards. The classics. Centipede? Pengo? Mario Bros? Older games didn't have to be male-specific, bloody and explosive, to be fun. There's not a girl I know who doesn't own at least one system. The market is there and always has been. Companies just have to make titles that don't specifically alienate. Barbie Horse Adventure is not how girls get into games. Civilization 4 is.

I agree that most games are geared toward males, but the reason for that is because there are so few women game developers.  I applaude you for being one, but according to the latest game developer magazine, 93% of game designers are male and 97% of game programmers are male.  Most games will continue to drip with testosterone until there are more women making games. Although, if you look at some of the best selling games of all time, they are usually games that appeal to both men and women (The Sims, WoW, Mario), so you would think more developers would learn a wider appeal means more possible sales.

Out of curiousity, which game developer do you work for?

[Rachel]

I agree that most games are geared toward males, but the reason for that is because there are so few women game developers.  I applaude you for being one, but according to the latest game developer magazine, 93% of game designers are male and 97% of game programmers are male.  Most games will continue to drip with testosterone until there are more women making games. Although, if you look at some of the best selling games of all time, they are usually games that appeal to both men and women (The Sims, WoW, Mario), so you would think more developers would learn a wider appeal means more possible sales.

Out of curiousity, which game developer do you work for?

Yeah, it's very lonely and frustrating being a female game programmer sometimes. I work for Barking Lizards Technologies, a growing company that made, among other things (Some that we took big bags of money to not take credit for. >.<), the bratz DS games. This hit #1 seller on the DS for 3 weeks in the UK and I've heard a lot of the guys complain that they didn't want to make games they wouldn't play. A few left to get onto bigger titles (The Halo / Doom3 / HL2s out there) and all they've done since? Unreal script 20 hours a day. Too much care on having their name on the credits for a title that will somehow give them a larger penis, and so many seem to miss the boat on "Fun" or "Will people buy it?." I think too many bought into the magazine articles about what happened to id's founders, and didn't realize that "enjoying programming" was a job requisite, while 'craving fame' somehow wasn't there.

The wii isn't some magical girl-attracting game system because of the controller, but so many developers think it is that they're starting to develop OPEN gendered games for it. Once again they miss the real situation going on, but at least Wario Ware, Raving Rabbids, and other fun games are actually being made that can actually focus on fun instead of graphics, boobs, and blood for a change.

[ChadTower]

This thread took a massive, pleasant left turn.  Awesome.

I might be in the minority as a guy but for modern gaming I stick pretty heavily with the "open gendered" games you're describing.  Not Bratz, obviously, but I'm not a big fan of violent games and the heavy testosteroney stuff you're describing actually does turn away a certain segment of male gamers (like me).

 

[Naru]

No offense to the female.
My vote is for blasting, fighting,
and boobs.
I've played the Wii for a week
now and you just can't improve
your game much.
It's not like old video games where everything
works the same and with practice you become great.
The remote isn't precise enough.
It becomes quickly apparent, then begins to suck the fun away.
Seriously this generation of video game systems
is getting me down. My x-box 360 is relegated
to being shipped back and forth to Microsoft
for the next year until the warranty expires.
Playstation 3 is out of my price range.
My last hope was the Wii, but it isn't cutting it.

[odysseyroc]

No offense to the female.
My vote is for blasting, fighting,
and boobs.
I've played the Wii for a week
now and you just can't improve
your game much.
It's not like old video games where everything
works the same and with practice you become great.
The remote isn't precise enough.
It becomes quickly apparent, then begins to suck the fun away.
Seriously this generation of video game systems
is getting me down. My x-box 360 is relegated
to being shipped back and forth to Microsoft
for the next year until the warranty expires.
Playstation 3 is out of my price range.
My last hope was the Wii, but it isn't cutting it.

Is that a poem?

[Naru]

Yes, it's a really bad poem.

[shmokes]

LMAO. That's what I always think, but he never tells what's up with all the hard-returns.  Whatever.  I hope he doesn't stop.  No matter what he say, I find myself enjoying reading his posts.

At any rate, I'm in the middle.  I played the hell out of Animal Crossing.  Bought it for my wife cos I'm always trying to encourage her to like videogames more.  She loved it, and has put dozens of hours into it.  But so have I.  Great game.  Lego Star Wars is the same deal.  Fantastic game and I've completed the first one at near 100% and am well into the second one. 

A game doesn't need to have violence or sex to be good any more than Toy Story or Mulan or Monsters Inc. need them to be good movies.  But, with that said, I still love violence and sex.  Pulp Fiction is one of the best movies ever made.  Spiderman . . . . loved it. 

And along those lines, I'll happily claim that GTA: San Andreas is one of the greatest videogames ever made (Vice City is right up there too).  Silent Hill and Resident Evil 4 are works of brilliance.  Tomb Raider is wonderful (as is Laura Croft).

I really think the problem you're referring to is sex and violence, to the exclusion of everything else.  This is a serious problem.  Many game developers make up for a lack of quality game design with gratuitous sex and/or violence.  This, of course, does not work any better than it works in the movies.  Without good design, you can throw all the sex and violence you want into the game and it won't make it good.  But sex and violence would are legitimate draws when combined with solid design and good writing.  What would The Matrix or Raging Bull or Schindler's List have been without violence?   What would Desperate Housewives or Wedding Crashers or The Secretary have been without sex? 

So, when it comes down to it, I guess my point is that you shouldn't develop and or buy games for the sake of sex and violence.  But neither should you avoid them solely on those grounds.

[shmokes]

It is possible what you're describing is firmware. 

See, now that sounds reasonably likely.  The bad software bit is a tough sell for me, because the problem seems to be EXACLTY the same across the entire Wii library.

Firmware, though, I can buy.  And if they can fix the problem with an update, that would be awesome.

[KenToad]

No offense to the female.
My vote is for blasting, fighting,
and boobs.
I've played the Wii for a week
now and you just can't improve
your game much.
It's not like old video games where everything
works the same and with practice you become great.
The remote isn't precise enough.
It becomes quickly apparent, then begins to suck the fun away.
Seriously this generation of video game systems
is getting me down. My x-box 360 is relegated
to being shipped back and forth to Microsoft
for the next year until the warranty expires.
Playstation 3 is out of my price range.
My last hope was the Wii, but it isn't cutting it.

I think Naru has several interesting points here, although his reference to "the female" makes it looks like he sees her as an alien creature.     But, Naru's point that the Wii has an almost flat learning curve, at least concerning hardcore gamers, means that the feeling of getting "great" by excercising hand eye coordination in a skill-based venture may be more of a guy thing.  I know that this is not an argument and just a thought anyway, but I'll just throw it out there.  It seems to me that women just aren't that concerned with getting great at fast twitch, necessarily precisely controlled games.  I don't consider the Wario Ware games to be an example to the contrary, by the way.  Generally, there is a low level of skill involved, once you figure out what you're supposed to be doing.  And it has the universal appeal of goofy humor.  I know both men and women who don't fit the personalities that I am describing, but generally it seems that guys get a thrill from pinpoint aiming with a mouse in a quickly changing environment, i.e. a FPS, and women don't, no matter what the backdrop of the game may be.  Some other types of games are more addictive for other reasons, for example making a character "stronger" by leveling up or acquiring items or simply interacting with lots of things.  I would say that those types of games have a more broad appeal.  I also realize that the Grand Theft Auto series breaks the stereotype, being open-ended and not well enough controlled to get a feeling of "greatness" by skill alone.  It seems that the developers have allowed luck to play a large part in that game's gameplay and it works reasonably well by appealing to the, probably mostly male, desire to role-play a gangster and break the law.  It's the game where people tell you about how awesome the bodies sound when they crunch as you run over them.  Generally, I think anyone who is not disgusted by the content can get a thrill out of the game.

I also agree that this gaming generation doesn't really seem too appealing right now.  There is no game that I have to play.  But, I missed out on the last generation and I still play my playstation, which I bought in 2004.     I have a DS Lite, but I like how retro it is, at least in terms of gameplay, and I spend more time reading comics on there.  Anyone here love Knights of the Dinner Table?   

[Rachel]

A lot of guys seem to think of girls as an alien creature >.> Oh well.
With me, I tend to relegate certain gametypes to my systems. PC for shooters (Gotta have a mouse) and other higher-skill games. PS2 for RPG, DDR, racing, and adventure, my DS-Lite for puzzle games and wii? Party. You get 10 friends coming over and they'll all gravitate towards it. Games like warioware with their lack of curve are perfect for parties, because everyone can be involved. You don't have to sit at home practicing to play evenly with others. Sometimes? That's a good thing.

Smash Bros Brawl, whenever it comes out, will be a little different. They usually do a good job juggling between easy to pick up and ability to do skillful maneuvers. Mario Party (Haaate that game) goes in the other direction and is all but completely luck. Games like Guitar Hero 3 and Guilty Gear XX Accent Core are going wii. The skill games are coming, I just hope people don't start counting out the system based on a launch lineup that did a spectacular job with what little info they had.

[Level42]

If they release Samba d'Amigo 2007 on the Wii, I'm rushing to the store....where I will find none in stock (I'm in Europe, apart from Africa always the most behind in the "current" game scene)......man have they underestimated the sales numbers....

[igboo]

If they release Samba d'Amigo 2007 on the Wii, I'm rushing to the store....

I would RE-buy the console for that game.  The first two on the DC still get a huge amount of party play at my house.  It's in demand enough that I've actually considered building a cabinet just for that game.

igboo

[shardian]

Resident Evil 4 are works of brilliance. 

I admit it, I have checked out Ashleys goods with the rifle scope, and I know that every other guy who has played the game has done the same. I also admit on the second time thru the game I kept making ashley get in and out of the dumpster with the cowgirl outfit on.

Anyways, I love games that have good playability. I am a huge fan of the sims. I am probably one of the few fans of the nintendo 64, but they put out alot of fun games that didn't have violence or sexuality. I'm sure the gamecube is the same, but the controller sucked WAY too much for me to even give it a chance.

I have played the wii on several occasions now, and I tend to agree with schmokes that there just isn't enough precision to the wiimote. I am sure that if you had a large enough screen you could do better. I played zelda on a 22" widescreen and it was not easy at all to aim with the bow. Now for imprecise motions, such as when fishing, the wiimote can be very fun, although not technically challenging. I believe this is what schmokes is getting at - there will never be enough precision associated with the wiimote to even compare to a mouse/keyboard combo for instance. It really has more to do with the fact that there is zero force feedback, or resisitance to motion than the limits of the hardware.

[ChadTower]

I'm a huge N64 fan, we still have one in the living room that gets more use than any other console, 4 spares, and 75% of the domestic library complete with boxes and manuals.

[shardian]

I'm a huge N64 fan, we still have one in the living room that gets more use than any other console, 4 spares, and 75% of the domestic library complete with boxes and manuals.

Cool! I think I've logged over 1000 hours on Mario Kart 64. I've beat everything including the impossibly hard time trials. Nothing beats 4 player Mariokart. The N64 revolutionized multiplayer capabilities IMO.

[KenToad]

The N64 was the last non-handheld console that I owned while it was current.  Goldeneye was so fantastic and we spent months alternating between beating the game, rocking multiplayer (we even built a cardboard screen and taped it to the TV to block each part of the screen from each other), and then finally finishing as much as possible of the time trials.  For me, no game has ever compared to the rush of trying to complete the second level's seemingly impossible two minute speed run on 007 difficulty.  That level was absolutely brilliant and I got an adaptoid pretty much just to continue my quest to get the sacred time.

Anyone here manage to run through that level successfully in under two minutes?

[ChadTower]

I was never all that enamored with that game but it got tons of play at my (then) gf's house.  We put in countless hours playing WCW vs NWO.  Tons and tons of them.

[Chris2]

I'd say that the first really great games will come once developers start getting an idea of what they're doing. Look at the DS. The system had nothing good for six months, and then we started getting stuff like Meteos and Advance Wars. Now it's the best system of this generation. It'll happen. Just wait. It'll come.