When is Wii going to take off?

[ark_ader]

ChadTower:

You know something? 

When my friend installed the PS3 in his LG Plasma, the PS3 via the HDMI socket configured the Plasma to 1080p.  To be totally honest I didn't think his 2 year old plasma would reach that resolution.  When it is connected to SKY via the scart it looks kinda fuzzy, but the PS3 is stonkingly clear.

I think that is pretty cool of Sony to invoke some kind of probing software for the PS3, shame it didn't probe for the 17" TFT when we hooked it up via the HDMI to DVI cable.  I looked on that HD Fury website, and it did say that some manufacturers use a black screen to disable this feature.  The TFT light was green and the image was evident but masked.

I want it to work on a widescreen TFT even if it is only 720p.  It would save me several hundred pounds.  I currently use a dual display at home with the PC.  A third screen would be cool for the PC and the PS3.

I'm going over to my mates house tonight that has the LG and the PS3 and I'll ask him a bit more on the model number of the plasma and the output.  Looks like he is going to put YellowDog on it, and I am intrigued and interested in the quality of image with text on such a wide area.

I'm not a VDU expert by any margin, but I been dealing with monitors most of my professional life, from MDA to HDMI and I know what I am talking about regardless if the contributors on this thread doesn't. 

It's ok, but I'm sure there are a lot of people out there curious of the PS3, and since its tax rebate time for us in the UK - a good time for some research. 

As I was posting this the tidbit was added my shmokes but I won't quote it to save time.

MotorStorm ....is.... being.....D I S P L A Y E D...I N...1 0 8 0 P not in 720p or whatever.  We viewed it in 720p and it looked ok but looks great in 1080p.  I don't follow the trade rags as the product they show is usually beta anyway. 

You know this too.

Get over it!     

PM me regarding this from now on Shmokes so you can carry on this tirade off this thread.

[ChadTower]

I didn't know that higher end TVs had software interfaces that devices could use to configure them.  That's pretty cool.  My TV has an HDMI input but I've never used it for anything.

[ark_ader]

I didn't know that higher end TVs had software interfaces that devices could use to configure them.  That's pretty cool.  My TV has an HDMI input but I've never used it for anything.

The only thing that comes close to this is the probing that Linux distributions use for the automated install and how Windows determines resolution for its native display driver rather than 640x480 16 color VGA. 

Can you recommend a good display for the Xbox 360 or PS3 that has the required inputs for the PC and these higher end consoles?  Sony comes to mind, but it would considering this recent exchange eh?

The prices are dropping, but I cannot justify having a 42" plasma as a PC monitor.  Plus I probably get motion sickness from it....

[ChadTower]

I'm the wrong guy to ask.  I don't have any HD other than the one TV that I got for $540 shipped, which is why I bought it.  No HD source, I watch standard Svideo via Tivo and 720p upscaled DivX material via XBMC.   

[pointdablame]

MotorStorm ....is.... being.....D I S P L A Y E D...I N...1 0 8 0 P not in 720p or whatever.  We viewed it in 720p and it looked ok but looks great in 1080p.  I don't follow the trade rags as the product they show is usually beta anyway. 

I'm going to ask this instead of shmokes because you two clearly are mad at each other as if you had kicked each other's puppies.

HOW did you witness Motorstorm at 1080p?  1080p implies that your Plasma display has a specific number of pixels, specifically 2,073,600 pixels.  That means there are 2,073,600 dots on your friend's plasma with which to display a picture.

Now... Motorstorm only outputs at 720p... this is (it would seem) a given fact.  That means the game can only physically push out around a million pixels.... its all that there is..... you can't fit 10 gallons of gas in a 5 gallon tank......

So, I am honestly and politely asking you how on earth you and your friend managed to make Motorstorm more than DOUBLE the amount of pixels that the game was PROGRAMMED in.  Are you implying that the entire game press industry is wrong and that Motorstorm has a 1080p setting...but they just didn't advertise it?  It's some kind of secret added bonus? 

Your display has 1080p capabilities.... but the game doesn't.  If you hooked up a VCR to your friend's tv and played an old VHS, even with the tv "set up" to 1080p.... would you call that 1080p?

[odysseyroc]

Why does this discussion remind me of Mr. Burns telling Don Mattingly to trim his sideburns?

[ChadTower]

[More Cowbell]

Well, Mr. Burns had done it
The power plant had won it
With Roger Clemens clucking all the while
Mike Scioscia's tragic illness made us smile
While Wade Boggs lay unconscious on the barroom tile
We're talkin' softball
From Maine to San Diego
Talkin' softball
Mattingly and Canseco
Ken Griffey's grotesquely swollen jaw
Steve Sax and his run-in with the law
We're talkin' Homer...
Ozzie, and the Straw
We're talkin' softball
From Maine to San Diego
Talkin' softball
Mattingly and Canseco
Ken Griffey's grotesquely swollen jaw
Steve Sax and his run-in with the law
We're talkin' Homer...
Ozzie, and the Straw

[KenToad]

This argument over "p" reminds me of my Mom explaining to me that I couldn't open her photos in Photoshop because they were stored in her other Image program.  Again and again, she would get frustrated with the silly Canon image software and, when I would tell her to use something else, she would always ask how she could get her pictures on the new program.   

Stupid crappy bundled software isn't as irritating as the knuckleheadedness currently on display, by Mr. I-know-what-I-can-see, though.

Could someone explain to me what "p" means specifically?  Is it pixels?  I'm starting to get very (sort of) interested in learning more about the subject.

[Buddabing]

p=progressive i=interlaced

Wikipedia link

[shmokes]

Heh . . . if only I was relying solely on gaming rags.  My links point specifically to the game's official advertisement entry at Playstation.com, as well as statements directly from the developer's mouth.  It only does 720p.  Maybe ark_ader should give evolution a call and let them know their mistake.  They can have a big company wide meeting where they ask, "Alright, who programmed in support for 1080p?"  To which all of the employees will respond, while looking around at all their neighbors, "Uhh . . . i'm pretty sure it wasn't me.  Ted?"  "No, I don't think so.  I don't remember doing that anyway.  I was pretty hopped up on Mountain Dew and Doritos in those last few weeks before deadline so it's hard to say for sure."

God, I feel like somebody kicked my puppy. 

*disclaimer: this message was posted from my phone so excuse any weird typos.

[ark_ader]

I went around to my friend's house today to get more information on his PS3. 

We played motorstorm again at 1080p but I looked more closely to the display, but was unconvinced there was a resolution issue as it had some graphical glitches possibly due to a couple factors.  I'm also thinking of Shmokes comments and tried not to be a bit nit picky.

We were playing online with a bluetooth headset, and couldn't figure out what the distortions on the screen was, but concluded it was update refresh or lag. 

But his display did not change to another resolution when the game started or loaded.  We played a fast game with bikes, but there was a noticable slowdown when we played with the Semi (Lorries).  All online wirelessly which was very fast.

I looked at the box the game came in and sure enough it was rated at 720p.   

So I'm at a loss why the game is working in that resolution, probably due to some update as the unit is constantly getting updated all the time.  Perhaps its a patch or a feature.

Anyway I figure it something along those lines and I will leave it at that.  Probably the subject will appear on this forum or on another again, and the real reason will emerge.

Regardless of the resolution issue the game was superb and the controls was fantastic, again no cramp, no numbness of thumb (which I get with the PS1) and the controller is very light in weight compared to other controllers I could mention.

I like the constant changes of software at Sony, especially awaitng "Home", but it will have to all wait until I can save up the cash to buy one.  It retails here at £425.  $850 is more than the US version, which is a drag as I cannot buy the US model and play it here in the UK. 

Definately no reason to get the Xbox 360 or the Wii until the price drops in a few years time.

I wonder what other Ps3 games play at 1080p?


 

I wasn't being critical at Shmokes for his comments, except the tone and manner of how he made his comments.  There is a way to disagree without being insulting.

[pointdablame]

But his display did not change to another resolution when the game started or loaded. 

You wouldn't see it change, and it would be very unlikely to announce that it had changed resolutions.  The TV is always 1080p... that's how many pixels it has.  It will also display lower resolutions, which is what you aren't understanding.

I looked at the box the game came in and sure enough it was rated at 720p.   

Because the game IS 720p.  It just is.

So I'm at a loss why the game is working in that resolution, probably due to some update as the unit is constantly getting updated all the time.  Perhaps its a patch or a feature.

And i guess this patch wasn't announced?  And the developer wouldn't tout the fact that it now displays 1080p?  Not to mention the fact that a "patch" wouldn't make the game natively display 1080p... since it wasn't programmed that way from the start.   

I wonder what other Ps3 games play at 1080p?

Not motorstorm.   

[shmokes]

My tone, initially, was a response to this statement:

The games I saw blew the 360 away.  Doesn't come close - yep no way near and you have to experience it on a plasma to see my perspective.

Your entire post was just textbook fanboyism.  Fanboys have a tendency to make hugely exaggerated claims that are just nonsense.  My initial reaction to you was a short post that basically amounted to me saying, "Meh . . . fanboy . . . move along."

You then responded and started insisting that what you said was the god's honest truth and making all kinds of claims about what you were seeing, things that I simply knew you could not be seeing because A) I knew that MotorStorm doesn't run higher than 720p and B) I have a basic understanding of how digital displays work.

I then became more of an ---uvula--- with each successive post because every time I responded to your nonsense with irrefutable facts, you just went right on refuting them time after time.  I'm sorry if you don't like rudeness, but just think how much of my abuse a little less stubbornness on your part could have saved you.

It's the problem with all fanboys.  You deify your console of choice and then it becomes impossible for you to view it objectively because even considering the possibility that something about it might not be perfect would basically be blasphemy that could send you to hell for time and all eternity.

Keep in mind that you've been arguing with someone who has little interest in picking up a 360, but is quite excited about owning a PS3 when the price comes down.  Do a quick search on the term PS3 or Playstation 3 by the user shmokes and it'll become clear that not only do I want a PS3 more than a 360, but that I think that when all is said and done PS3 will have the largest world-wide market share of the big 3 (though not by nearly the margin the PS2 had). 

I like the PS3.  I want a PS3.  I want one more than I want a 360.  The difference between you and me, though, is I don't make a religion out of it.

[KenToad]

p=progressive i=interlaced

Wikipedia link

Thanks for the link.   

[Naru]

I didn't know that higher end TVs had software interfaces that devices could use to configure them.  That's pretty cool.  My TV has an HDMI input but I've never used it for anything.

The only thing that comes close to this is the probing that Linux distributions use for the automated install and how Windows determines resolution for its native display driver rather than 640x480 16 color VGA. 

Can you recommend a good display for the Xbox 360 or PS3 that has the required inputs for the PC and these higher end consoles?  Sony comes to mind, but it would considering this recent exchange eh?

The prices are dropping, but I cannot justify having a 42" plasma as a PC monitor.  Plus I probably get motion sickness from it....

I have a 15" PHILIPS HD LCD,
a NORCENT 20" HD LCD, a SOYO 36" LCD, and
a SAMSUNG 50" HD projection.
Of these only the SOYO, and SAMSUNG have HDMI, but all of them have PC and multiple component,
s-video, cable, you name it, inputs.
It's getting pretty common for most HD TV to have PC input.

[ChadTower]

"PC" is not an input type, it's a source device.  VGA is only one way communication and is analog.  The other "PC" methods would be HDMI or DVI and I'm pretty sure DVI is only one way too.  So really, only HDMI capable devices would be two communicating two ways, I think.

[shmokes]

Windows is able to detect things about monitors automatically when you plug them in, so there must be some level of two-way communication going on over DVI (and possibly VGA -- I might be just imagining that it happens with VGA).

[ChadTower]

Windows has a default setting it uses when it can't detect anything.

However, I did just find this on Wikipedia:

Like modern analog VGA connectors, the DVI connector includes pins for the display data channel, version 2 (DDC 2) that allows the graphics adapter to read the monitor's extended display identification data (EDID).

So it looks like even SVGA can do a very limited read from a ROM on the display... I'm turning up with some research that the Display Data Channel allows the graphics adapter to read a ROM on the monitor showing information about the graphics modes that the monitor can display, for SVGA, DVI, or HDMI.

So it looks like the source device can detect the capabilities of the monitor and adjust itself to match.  I have yet to find anything that says it can adjust the display device, but I haven't gone too far into HDMI.

[ark_ader]

It all very interesting that the older models of Plasma displays can display a high resolution,compared with more recent offerings.

I have tried reading most of the information at HD Fury, but would like further clarification on what DVI and HDMI are per price range.  We all know that one manufacturer makes the same display for different companies with a price differential when it comes to features.

I always hated the look of LCD TVs when out at the local superstore, and the feeds to these sets were cable or aerial feeds.  I'd hate to buy one of these for it to look  and could not take it back.  In the UK taking back is not in fashion.

But once you see a cool video game (Sorry Shmokes) in 1080P its hard to look at a RGB screen again.

[shmokes]

But once you see a cool video game in 1080P its hard to look at a RGB screen again.

How would you know?  ROTFLMAO!

[shmokes]

I'm not sure I really understand your question.  LCD and Plasma TVs come with the same variety of inputs.  You can get LCD TVs with HDMI and Plasma with HDMI.  Same goes for DVI, and frankly anything you purchase today most likely has both.

The pictures will be basically identical between HDMI and DVI, but HDMI has the ability to carry audio in addition to video which makes it superior in that way (though this isn't very useful for the connection to your TV, unless you're using the TV's built-in speakers -- and who buys a giant flat-panel TV only to settle for stereo?)

As far as the difference between the quality of LCD and Plasma, the differences are practically negligible nowadays.  Early on LCD displays had really crappy black levels and viewing angles, but that's been addressed for the most part.  Also, anything smaller than 40" or so locks you into LCD because plasma pixels are too big.  You can't fit enough of them onto a <40" screen for high definition resolution.

Frankly, you're going to be perfectly happy with either technology.  Both produce phenomenal pictures and the differences between the two are not great.  Each has slight advantages over the other in certain areas, but only nitpicking stuff.

[ark_ader]

So with that above recommendation, what would you suggest with consoles and PC in mind as a desktop monitor or the same wall mounted?

I have other mate that has a LCD and it looks sharp and crisp but the contrast is high and the image suffers from it (sorry its a Sony Shmokes) where a plasma looks fuzzy with a digital Sky Box, yet easy on the eyes.

I'm not comparing the sizes, but want something cool to look at without burning my eyes out.  Something I do admit happens with my dual TFT displays.

I have one of those VGA to Composite called the MagicVga.  It runs the older consoles and Xbox fine with the TFT, but I wonder what I would look like on a LCD.

Thanks Smokes in advance!

[shmokes]

I don't recommend either to be honest.  If it's smaller than 40" you get LCD because you have no other option.  If you're getting a size that comes in LCD and Plasma flavors I just recommend reading reviews of the sets.  A nice LCD looks far better than a crap Plasma and a nice Plasma looks far better than a crap LCD.  Panasonic, Pioneer and Sharp have a reputation for making great flat panel TVs.  It seems like the Sony Bravia line is supposed to be really great too.  Vizio and Westing House make flat panels that are extremely inexpensive, but are actually pretty damned good, approaching the quality of the big name brands at a MUCH better price.  Steer clear of most other generics, unless it's for a display that's not especially important to you.  Just plug the model name of any given TV into Google, followed by the word "review" and see what people are saying about the display.

Lastly, take all this with a grain of salt.  I read A LOT.  But I don't own any flat panels TVs (unless you count my computer monitors, which are LCDs).  My only TV is a rear projection HDTV that is old enough that the only high def inputs it has are component inputs, and the only high def resolution it will display is 1080i (no 1080p or 720p).

[ChadTower]

You also have to consider that you don't have to have the best unit available.  It is reasonable to want the best unit for what you are willing to pay.

I have one LCD television.  It is not a highest end model, though it is pretty good, and is "worth" far more than I paid for it.  I got excellent value within the price range I found acceptable.

[shmokes]

Absolutely, though I tend to think of monitors as something to splurge a little on cos they should last so long.  For example I'm perfectly happy with my seven year old TV (almost perfect -- I'd love 720p support, actually).  And my computer monitors have gone through two computers and will go through at least a third.  While other technology just races along, a good display should last and last and last.  I always tell people not to skimp on the monitor when they're buying a computer -- this advice dates back to CRT days.

[RTSDaddy2]

I'll second Howard on this.  If you are someone who believes there's nothing good to play on the Wii I would honestly have to ask you what titles you've picked up.

Tiger Woods Golf, Wii Play, and Sonic, while perhaps not the gem that TP is by any stretch, are fine games in my opinion for 5 months in.  Then you add to that Wario Ware, and the additions (I haven't tried these yet but am hopeful) of Cooking Mama and others and you have a nice set of FUN games for the system.  Plus whatever Gamecube classics you may wish to replay, or try out for the first time....same with the VC channel if you aren't opposed to the points cost.

When I go in the store to check out the PS3, I see 2 -3 games that I think I'd even be interested in playing.  In contrast, we now own 9 Wii titles if you count Wii Sports.  That means every month we've found two titles that we cannot seem to live without. 

Nintendo systems may be for kids, but as my wife put it this morning, "I like playing with the kid's toys!"  This is the one system - as I've said before - next to the Atari 2600 and the SEGA Genesis that I've found worthy of this kind of support from me as a consumer in a long, long while. 

[Zero_Hour]

One thing I always remind folks about when they are considering an LCD monitor purchase - Native Resolution.

That is, how many physical pixels is the monitor comprised of. I always mention this, because with an LCD, that is the resolution that will look best. So if you Run your system at 1280x1024, and are happy with it, make sure that is the native resolution of your new LCD monitor. No matter how good the monitor is made, you will always have some level of image degradation when you run your PC at a resolution different from the monitor's Native res. This reason alone, is why I am still running CRT's on my main system. I want a crisp clear picture at EVERY resolution I run, which is a bunch.

[ChadTower]

Absolutely, though I tend to think of monitors as something to splurge a little on cos they should last so long.  For example I'm perfectly happy with my seven year old TV (almost perfect -- I'd love 720p support, actually).  And my computer monitors have gone through two computers and will go through at least a third.  While other technology just races along, a good display should last and last and last.  I always tell people not to skimp on the monitor when they're buying a computer -- this advice dates back to CRT days.

Can't tell you how many times I've heard someone say "yeah, I'd like an LCD, but it's not as good as plasma and I can't afford a plasma".  As if there won't always be something better than anything they buy. 

[shmokes]

Good call Zero_Hour.  I totally meant to mention native res.  Specifically the true 1080i/p res of 1920 x 1080.  Many HD flat panels only actually display 1024x768 or 13XX x something or other, even if they will accept and display a 1080i/p signal.  If you're planning to send a 1080i or 1080p signal to your LCD, you will not be seeing true 1080 resolutions unless your display does 1920 x 1080 (and I'd say the majority of the flat panels on the market actually cannot).

Also, RTSDaddy, I'm sorry, but you just have low standards.  The Wii is not overflowing with great titles.  There is a barely moving trickle of mediocre titles and an utter absence of great ones coming out.  Hopefully Paper Mario will turn the tides a bit in that respect.  But Wii Play?  You're joking.  You simply must be joking.  Wii Play is a poopy steaming pile of poo for me to poop on.  Seriously, I had low expectations, but figured, "Hell, for $10 bucks it doesn't have to be a masterpiece."  I should have saved my $10.  We played it for an hour or so the day we got it and it has not entered the system again.  Ever.

[RTSDaddy2]

I know shmokes.......and thanks for noticing that. 

[MustardTent]

I'll second Howard on this.  If you are someone who believes there's nothing good to play on the Wii I would honestly have to ask you what titles you've picked up.

Tiger Woods Golf, Wii Play, and Sonic, while perhaps not the gem that TP is by any stretch, are fine games in my opinion for 5 months in.  Then you add to that Wario Ware, and the additions (I haven't tried these yet but am hopeful) of Cooking Mama and others and you have a nice set of FUN games for the system.  Plus whatever Gamecube classics you may wish to replay, or try out for the first time....same with the VC channel if you aren't opposed to the points cost.

When I go in the store to check out the PS3, I see 2 -3 games that I think I'd even be interested in playing.  In contrast, we now own 9 Wii titles if you count Wii Sports.  That means every month we've found two titles that we cannot seem to live without. 

Nintendo systems may be for kids, but as my wife put it this morning, "I like playing with the kid's toys!"  This is the one system - as I've said before - next to the Atari 2600 and the SEGA Genesis that I've found worthy of this kind of support from me as a consumer in a long, long while. 

Just bought some GameCube games for my Wii:
 
Metriod Prime: $1.99
Viewtiful Joe: $5.99
Eternal Darkness: $3.99

Helps make up for the lull in quality Wii games, especially 'cause I haven't played any GameCube games before (choose these because of excellent reviews).

[tommy]

That's why i always TRY to stay one gen behind with consoles(but never could) , nothing like getting good games at $3.00 a pop.

[ChadTower]

I do that too... I'm just now getting into PS2 and Xbox.

Where are you getting them for $3 each?  Surely not Gamestop/EB.

[tommy]

The only thing is, with all these consoles being backwards compatible, good games are holding some value.

[MustardTent]

A place called Disc Replay.  It's a small chain in Illinois that resells music/movies/games.

One thing about this particular store is that they outright refuse to sell anything Sega.  I went in there a few months ago looking for a DreamCast and didn't see one so I asked the cashier who told me about their "no sega" policy.  Apparently it's due to the store owner. 

[ChadTower]

Erm, okay.  That's odd.  I guess he's still pissed about not carrying the Saturn at premature launch.   

[DaveMMR]

A place called Disc Replay.  It's a small chain in Illinois that resells music/movies/games.

One thing about this particular store is that they outright refuse to sell anything Sega.  I went in there a few months ago looking for a DreamCast and didn't see one so I asked the cashier who told me about their "no sega" policy.  Apparently it's due to the store owner. 

Heh!  Nice website.  They never finished filling in the default names in whatever template they used.  I went there to see if there was a reason for their "No Sega" policy.  Can you find out for us?  It's going to kill me.  Do they carry games made by Sega for other consoles (e.g. Sonic for GC or Panzer Dragoon Orta for Xbox)? 

Anyway, I was reading this thread... well I kind of skimmed all the Plasma TV talk... and thought I should chime in about these "expectations" of the PS3.

I wanted a PS3 when it was announced.  But the one thing that changed my mind and also may cause Sony to lose its foothold in the number one spot:

It's too expensive!

Speaking only for myself, I'm tired of video game systems trying to make their machines a replacement for every piece of equipment in my home entertainment center.  I never asked for a Blu-Ray player.  I just wanted to play new games.  But Sony is using their new machine as a Trojan Horse in a new "format battle" and it may end up biting them in the behind.  Who wants to watch Blu-Rays on the PS3 anyway, when we all learned that the PS2 was hardly competent in playing regular DVDs?  It's a nice extra, granted, but one that's inflating the machine to ridiculous prices.  And judging from the past, I don't see any drastic price drops anytime soon. 

(By the way, I'm aware of the irony of pointing out the expense of a game system when we spend hundreds if not thousands of dollars to recreate 20 year old arcade game cabinets.  Then again, I am trying to assume the role of the average consumer - one who doesn't build arcade cabinets.)

Secondly, I must be the only guy in the world who no longer cares about graphics.  Seriously - it hit a point last generation where I looked at the screen and said, "good enough" and focused squarely on the gameplay.  I don't care how good Motor Storm looks in 1080p or 720p or whatever, because, at the end of the day, I'll bet any amount of money that I'd have more fun with a time-tested classic like Super Mario Bros. or... what the heck, Mr. Driller on a standard television with rabbit ears and knobs.

The PS2 outsold all the next-gen consoles this past holiday, which is a good sign of what really sells a game system...  and it's not graphics.

Personally, and not speaking as a fanboy, I'm rooting for Nintendo.  They were complete jerks during their heyday with their stranglehold on 3rd party companies and unfair tactics of bullying retailers (among other offenses).  But I'll be damned if a decent percentage of the games on the NES weren't a blast to play!  I really don't care how "kiddie" they are - fun is fun and that's that.   (As an aside: I finally motivated myself to finish Metroid Prime and I must say that it was one of the best gaming experiences I've ever had.  Definitely not "kiddee", even if it doesn't invlove punching hookers.) 

The Wii will succeed, in my opinion, because they've targeted very real people with very real money - the non-gamer.  My girlfriend thinks not-so-highly of video games but she's the one who always wants to break out Wii Sports.  And there are already a few good games worth picking up for the system - par for course for any new system (I don't ever remember PS2 or XBox having nothing but gold coming out of the gate - just one or two "must-haves").

By the way, I'm not ruling out buying a PS3 (with some unlikely price drop or off the back of a truck).  It's just at this point, having a limited selection of titles is easier to swallow with a $250 price tag than it is with a $600 one. 

Rant over... I'll go back to my dark, quiet corner. 

[ChadTower]

I agree with most of that.  I don't care all that much about graphics either - no new games are going to look like crap now.  A lot of them will continue to play like crap, though, and that is where value lies.  Not in appearance.  Value lies in substance.

[More Cowbell]

A place called Disc Replay.  It's a small chain in Illinois that resells music/movies/games.

One thing about this particular store is that they outright refuse to sell anything Sega.  I went in there a few months ago looking for a DreamCast and didn't see one so I asked the cashier who told me about their "no sega" policy.  Apparently it's due to the store owner. 

Disc Replay is a great place. I took a box of old games, cd's, and dvd's in there and they gave me a ton of credit. I figured I'd get a buck or two out of each item but they ended up bringing in closer to $5. That goes a long way when the games are only $8-15. They also have a couple of cabinets of classic consoles and games. Come to think of it I don't remember seeing any Sega but I didn't really think about it. There may have been a Dreamcast controller or two though. They're pretty smart too. They give you your credit in tokens so you're more likely to lose them.