Preserve the Classics OR It's Just Particle Board

[rampy]

*shrug*...  the poll isn't as important as to just open up the floor for comments to this heated topic... =P

Rampy

PS thread that inspired the poll

[anthony691]

I think people can do whatever they want with thier cabs, and it is not anyones place to tell them to (It is reasonable to ask them not to, but not to TELL them not to) (It is also reasonable to convince them they made a mistake or let them know you (and many others) disagree with what you did, but once they aknolage this it's time to move on!)


Note: I would NEVER, EVER MAME a Classic!!!!!!! I wouldn't event consider it; but people can do whatever they want with thier cabs!

[hevnsnt]

well anyone who knows me, knows I voted.. Its mine and I can do what I want!

[Brad Lee]

Without even clicking, I can geuss that thread above is about the guy with the Tempest.. I did the same thing(gasp!) and converted an empty Tempest cabinet to mame. I understand that it is a classic and prized by many, so I kept things completely reversible in the event that anyone should ever approach me. There was nothing in it when I got it, and it could go back to that in about 10 minutes

The other part of me says that Tempest has always been one of my personal favorites, as much for the design(the monolithic slope and terrifying demons ARE pretty damn cool) as the game itself. I like the fact that my conversion is pretty unique in the field for the reason that nobody wants to use this cabinet for this purpose.

I am leaning more now than ever to getting some repro sideart for it and keeping to the theme when I eventually do a marquee and some CPOverlays

If I were of a mind to make a large 4-player CP, I would definitely look to either finding a generic cab or building- rather than tearing this apart to make things fit

[SirPoonga]

I would mame a classic, but not in the sense most people think of.  With the advent of arcadevga and jpac all I would do is just plug a computer in, no changing the cabinet.

Some of these cabs people modify are classic cabs which year by passing year get harder to find.  ESPECIALLY if you picked up a working pcb and want to refurbish.

[SirPoonga]

well anyone who knows me, knows I voted.. Its mine and I can do what I want!

Hey, have you checked your PM?  Still wondering if you would be willing to trade that digdug pcb.

[Sasquatch!]

I checked "If you're real careful, maybe".  

Using a classic cab to play MAME ain't no big deal, but I disagree with making irrersible changes to it (cutting into it) to do so.

[Brax]

Without even clicking, I can geuss that thread above is about the guy with the Tempest..

Nope he killed a Dig Dug... The Tempest guy is a different Mutilator.
And then of course there's the Defender guy.....

*sigh*
It seems the more people that get into this, the more classic cabs get destroyed.

And I don't want to hear some dumb arguement about it going into the trash if you didn't kill it yourself. You found it, it's your job to preserve it or pass it along to someone else who wants to. Its not all that hard.

I'm done.

I've made a cocktail from scratch. I'm going to make a 1up replica. Then you know what I'm going to do? I just thought of this.... I have the skills now.... I'm going to rescue a cabinet. I may keep it or I may sell it after restoration but I'm going to preserve a piece of gaming history because I get so much enjoyment out of them. Why don't you do the same?

ok, now I'm done.
*sits down*

[Xphile]

<snip>
Then you know what I'm going to do? I just thought of this.... I have the skills now.... I'm going to rescue a cabinet. I may keep it or I may sell it after restoration but I'm going to preserve a piece of gaming history because I get so much enjoyment out of them. Why don't you do the same?

ok, now I'm done.
*sits down*

that's a damn good idea..I'm proud of being able to bring my space harrier cab back from the dead - and it's not even a true blue golden-age classic!

 it's a distinctive cab, sure.. the Sprite-based 3D gameplay was one of the best(and one of the last) but I'd love to pick up a true "golden age of arcade" cab and bring back from the dead.. But in all likelihood, I'm prolley gonna pick up a non-working semi-classic (won't even be able to afford a golden ager...maybe silver or bronze..:-)

...we have *one* auction company around here once or twice a year. with maybe 50-100 cabs each time...the prices do get up there, anything recent (or even just >27" monitor ) - or old (even for the classic dead cabs..)

middle of the road cabs are dirt cheap tho'.. non-descript 19" -25" neo-geo/ jamma conversion cabs go anywhere from $25- $150 working, so it's a mamer's paradise..

I wanna rescue a cab!  

[anthony691]

Maybe we should all restore a cab, you know; I think it would be cool. What better way to preserve the classics? We could make it into a gentleman's contest to see who can turn the worst cab into the best. We can all also each make some cash off of this.

[rampy]

On one hand, I think it's just smelly old  particle board and not that important...  Does it really matter in the grand scheme of things?

BUT I have a visceral reaction whenever I see a MAME'd star wars or a sawed up dig dug, or butchered Tempest, tron,  or *Gasp* mix-mashed 4 player MAME button factory explosion Mr. Do conversion (thankfully haven't seent THAT yet).... but probably  just get upset/naseus cause those are my favorite cab(s) -- I don't shed a tear for  a MAME'd kangaroo or rally-x or whatever...

*Shrug*  --- so i'm a preservationist, but i'm not sure why...  it's as if 1000 classic cabs cried out at once and then were silenced... =P

rampy

[u_rebelscum]

"One man's trash is another's treasure."  
"Another" can't tell "one man" what to do or not to do, but "one man" would be stupid not to sell the "trash" at a treasure's price to "another."  Either that, or a cold hearted rich person, or an ignorant poor person who never will be rich.

If it's in perfect condition, I'd put a small computer with arcadeVGA and jpac in there like SirPoonga said.  If you do any irrersible changes to a classic, you're killing a great investment.  You can make money by selling the perfect classic cab and buying two working generics.

If it's in good shape, I'd either restore or trade it with someone who will restore for a generic or parts.  Maybe (probably, actually) use it as a template first, though, and build my own.

If the classic cab is in really bad shape that none will trade for it, I'd say duplicate it and retire the old, broken pile of wood and let it rest in peace.  

[SONIC]

Voted "It's my cab..."!
Yes! I would might MAME a classic cab, but only if the game itself didn't mean that much to me! Cabs I would never do anything to but polish are cabs like Bubble Bobble, Outrun, R-Type, Jackal or other games that meant allot to me as a kid! But if I became a Tetris or somewhat other cab where the original game didn't mean sh*t to me, I would have no bad feelings maming the sh*t out of it Call me terrorist, but in the end everything the most of us seek is the original arcade feel about playing the old games, and a cab that looks seriously good in our living-room But if I could get hold of a Bubble Bobble... sweet jesus Would let it stay like it was for ever, that's for sure!!!
Btw... now I'm talking about Bubble Bobble... how comes it lags at times when playing 2 players??? I mean, it can't be THAT demanding, or???

Cheers doods!!!

Keep it real, and don't hate eachother

[Brax]

Voted "It's my cab..."!
Yes! I would might MAME a classic cab, but only if the game itself didn't mean that much to me! Cabs I would never do anything to but polish are cabs like Bubble Bobble, Outrun, R-Type, Jackal or other games that meant allot to me as a kid! But if I became a Tetris or somewhat other cab where the original game didn't mean sh*t to me, I would have no bad feelings maming the sh*t out of it Call me terrorist, but in the end everything the most of us seek is the original arcade feel about playing the old games, and a cab that looks seriously good in our living-room But if I could get hold of a Bubble Bobble... sweet jesus Would let it stay like it was for ever, that's for sure!!!
Btw... now I'm talking about Bubble Bobble... how comes it lags at times when playing 2 players??? I mean, it can't be THAT demanding, or???

Cheers doods!!!

Keep it real, and don't hate eachother

Didn't you kill the Defender?

If so, I need to find myself a nice Bubble Bobble......... and put an AXE in it! *grin*

No hard feelings.  

[Chris]

The question, of course, is "what is a classic"?  This answer may be different for everybody...

My cabinet started life as a Super Contra.  It's in just about the most generic looking cabinet I've seen, so I had no problem MAMEing it.  But cabinets that can be recognized on sight as Defender, Galaxian, Pac-Man, Tempest...  well, I might MAME it, but only in such a way that a complete reversal and restoration was possible: restore the sideart and marquee, store the CP and bezel, and don't cut into the cabinet.  More likely, I'd try to trade for a generic cab.  Since I have a MAME cab now, if I came upon one of these classic cabs I'd probably attempt a full restoration.

--Chris

[hevnsnt]

So what would you think if I strapped the volcano cone player1 and player2 atari buttons to the front of some bottle rockets?

[SONIC]

Voted "It's my cab..."!
Yes! I would might MAME a classic cab, but only if the game itself didn't mean that much to me! Cabs I would never do anything to but polish are cabs like Bubble Bobble, Outrun, R-Type, Jackal or other games that meant allot to me as a kid! But if I became a Tetris or somewhat other cab where the original game didn't mean sh*t to me, I would have no bad feelings maming the sh*t out of it Call me terrorist, but in the end everything the most of us seek is the original arcade feel about playing the old games, and a cab that looks seriously good in our living-room But if I could get hold of a Bubble Bobble... sweet jesus Would let it stay like it was for ever, that's for sure!!!
Btw... now I'm talking about Bubble Bobble... how comes it lags at times when playing 2 players??? I mean, it can't be THAT demanding, or???

Cheers doods!!!

Keep it real, and don't hate eachother

Didn't you kill the Defender?

If so, I need to find myself a nice Bubble Bobble......... and put an AXE in it! *grin*

No hard feelings.  

Killed the Defender? Dunno what you're talking about, the only cab I own and have ever owned is the Killer Instinct 2 cab And that's still standing intact totally... only thing I did to it was giving it new buttons, new joysticks (Happs Competitions) and added a pc inside the machine with mame on it! The original game is still inside, so that I easily can switch to it in no time!
But you got a point there... if I saw anyone chop up a Bubble Bobble I would cry very damn loud, but only because I want such machine myself, and prolly can't get it that easy!!!

No hard feelings

[SirPoonga]

The question, of course, is "what is a classic"?  This answer may be different for everybody...

I bet you most people when it comes to cabinet mutilation means a rare cabinet that is in good condition, like a recent Dig Dug.

It's hard to find cabinets like that in as good of a condition.  That's what's evil about it, if it was a dig dug cabinet with a bunch of water damage that already was painted over it already has been multilated, not much you can do to help it.

Good analogy.  If you became the new owner of the original Declaration of Independence, would you tear it to use it as bookmarks or would you try to preserve it?

[Chris]

I have to admit, my heart fell when I saw the DigDug with its front lopped off.  The painful part it that it was so completely unecessary!  I have a nice 2-player setup in the same space that the original DigDug would have provided.  I have been considering a larger control panel (I want a decent trackball!), but I would never lop off the front of the cabinet to do it...

[MameFan]

Whats all this talk about Bubble Bobble needing to be saved?  [Don't get the wrong idea why I'm asking this..I like BB and own one myself]

As of yet, as with any ROMSTAR game, I have not seen it in the same cabinet twice.

Personally, I picked up a Defender converted to a Bubble Bobble (Defender graphics are still underneath the maroon formica and dried contact cement)

Just like Arkanoid... I don't think BubbleBobble ever was sold as a complete game, only as an "upgrade kit".

[J_K_M_A_N]

Good analogy.  If you became the new owner of the original Declaration of Independence, would you tear it to use it as bookmarks or would you try to preserve it?

Well, actually, that isn't a good analogy because there was only 1 original DOI.  Personally, I don't think of any cab as unmameable. If you really want a classic cab, you can build one and make the side art and most everything else look like the original. The cab itself isn't a great piece of history. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE to see classic cabs because it brings me back to a pretty good childhood. But if I saw a new clone of a classic cab, I would feel the same about it. I mean, it is possible to make a classic looking cab nowadays with the computers for the sideart and marquees and control panel graphics. To me the cab was/is just a cab that usually looked ok. Not great. It is the game that was/is great. Just my thoughts.

J_K_M_A_N

[MilitiaMan]

There are generic JAMMA cabinets everywhere to be MAME'ed if you look hard enough. I don't think anyone is going to gripe about my 1996 NBA Hangtime sitting out in the garage when it get's MAME'ed.

But if you MAME a Frogger, or a Defender, or ~god forbid~ a Tempest .... you are not what this hobby is all about. I would kill for a Tempest cab in even halfway decent condition ----- to restore it. NOT TO KILL IT!

Anyone need this soapbox? I'm done with it.

MM

[Brax]

There are generic JAMMA cabinets everywhere to be MAME'ed if you look hard enough. I don't think anyone is going to gripe about my 1996 NBA Hangtime sitting out in the garage when it get's MAME'ed.

But if you MAME a Frogger, or a Defender, or ~god forbid~ a Tempest .... you are not what this hobby is all about. I would kill for a Tempest cab in even halfway decent condition ----- to restore it. NOT TO KILL IT!

Anyone need this soapbox? I'm done with it.

MM

Somebody in 10 years time will scream bloody murder you killed a Hangtime. Count on it. That was someones favortite game in 1996. Any game that was popular will become a classic in the future. That cabinet definitely classifies as a future classic. Don't be shortsighted in your butchering.

Who cared about Dig Dug cabinets in 1988?

[paigeoliver]

Actually. Besides generic JAMMA cabinets (most of which were actually once classics themselves). the BEST cabinets to MAME are vector games. Asteroids, Star Wars, and even TEMPEST!

You know why? Because there are two of those things with dead monitors for everyone that has a working one, and they ALL seem to have problematic boardsets.

Believe me there are not nearly enough working vector monitors for all the vector cabinets out there. If you have a non-working vector game, that is probably really your best bet for MAME. And someone with a working copy of the same game will be grateful for the spare parts.

Can you still find vector monitors that work to help fix up your vector. Yes, you can. But all you are doing is keeping that monitor out of someone elses cabinet.

Another thing. The main games people seem to cry over are also the most common games on earth. People cry over converted Ms. Pac cabinets, and then go out days later and rape some working dedicated "also ran" just for the monitor.

A few years ago I was winning an auction for nonworking B&W games for $1, when the seller cancelled the auction with an hour left. I asked him what was up. He said that he was just going to burn them instead, as it wasn't going to be worth the effort to sell them.

90 percent of those Dig Dugs, Pacs and Defenders aren't going anywhere anytime soon. If you REALLY want to save something. Then save a strange game. Better yet, save several of them. I have some common games, but then I also have a few RARE games as well. My Rare ones are Jack the Giantkiller (dedicated cocktail), Time Pilot (cocktailm which is uber rare, the upright is common), and I have 3 dedicated oddballs on the way, Radar Zone, The Amazing Maze Game, and Checkmate.

Save that weird stuff, everyone of them could theoretically be "the last one". Seriously. Most of those weird games had production runs under 500. While most Atari, Williams, and Midway stuff was 4000, 8000, and even 20,000 to 100,000 and up!

[VMJ Team]

I saw that dig-dug cab too...also left my personal view on the subject in the Projects forum.  As an Engineer, I respect the design and creation of classic cabinets that "someone" created...but we no longer live in that time....arcade cabinets can come and go out of style...noone's trying to bring back behives or butterfly collars...If that's what you're into...great.

I grew up in the 80's and spent countless hours in arcades as many of you did.  If I had a classic, I personally would decide whether it was acceptable as is or if modifications were needed...the fact that it is a classic would not enter the decision process at all...it is simply painted particle board that some guy cut out from behind a machine and assemble with screws...then someone slapped a big ol sticker on the side and passed it down to the next guy in the assembly line...no big deal...if it was something that could never ever be duplicated again...than that is a different story entirely.

[Smittydc]

What about a part restoration/conversion?

I took a space invaders deluxe cab that had the electronics and monitor gutted, the buttons broken, and all the art had been scraped off the glass bezel.  It was about to be broken down and tossed.

I found a replacement bezel, fixed the coin door, built a mame control panel the exact same size as the original (with more controls, of course) and gave it a lot of love and care.

I'd like to think differently, but the truth is I never would have gone through anywhere near the same amount of trouble to restore it just to space invaders.  Hats off to people who have the room and time for multiple cabinets and authentic restorations, but I'm still very proud of my "save".

[Pipercub]

I would not consider converting anything but a classic, with two conditions. First I would not break down a working one, and second I take great care in restoring it to a very original exterior because that cabnet to me is a piece of art and was perfect the way it was. The only exception is the neccesary control panel modifications. I would also not bother with building one, I have yet to see a homebuilt that doesn't look like a homebuilt. The more modern games are OK but don't have any appeal to me, I only like the classics. Therefore, I would never go cutting up a Tempest or hot soak off the marqee paint so I could slide in some inkjeted MAME logo.




For example my two machines:

Asteroids Delux. When I bought it the side art was in good shape but everything else was in rough shape and all electronics (plus monitor) other than the main board were shot. I sold the main board to a fellow repairing his Asteroids delux. Now my Asteroids Delux looks like it rolled off the assembly line other than the addition of two joystick/button sets. So it is a classic cabnet that sports all the classics MAME has to offer.

Q*Bert. This one had been converted to a POW game when I got it. Now it looks like a factory fresh Q*Bert, new side art, new CPO, new front pannel art, everything freshly painted, new T molding, a NOS marqee, and lots of extras like locks, levelers and power switch etc. This thing looks like it was just uncrated in 82'. It also has a MAME box in it and the full compliment of games.

[paigeoliver]

One other suggestion. If you are presented with a DEDICATED cabinet that still has a nice overlay with a fully functional control panel. Then just use that, or pull it and get one that was already converted.

There is a really good reason for that. They only have repro overlays available for about 50 games or so. But there have been 4000+ games made in the history of arcade gaming. The more oddball the game, the more likely that you would be drilling up a control panel that someone else wants (even conversion panels).

(For example), see if you can find reproduction City Connection control panel overlays? Then see if you can find an NOS one. Then see if you can find ANY City Connection control panel, in ANY condition. Don't bother looking, I looked for 2 years, and never found one. I finally sold my boardset to someone else (BTW, City Connection is one of the rarest games around, try and find one anywhere).

You don't have to have EVERY possible control on one panel. Almost any game will have a control panel that is cabably of playing a whole lot of games correctly.

Even a Space Invaders panel can play around 50-100 games.

The only real exception that I can think of is maybe a Q*Bert panel, which plays like 4 games (The 3 versions of Q*Bert, and there was something else that used that same 45 degree stick as well).

Personally I have found that I enjoy my cabinet more with less games visible on the menu anyway (80 percent of mame is crap anyway). I keep 100 games on my main menu, and from time to time I take off games that aren't getting played, and rotate in new ones.

[RayB]

Hey looky here! From 2003!!

[ChadTower]

Actually. Besides generic JAMMA cabinets (most of which were actually once classics themselves). the BEST cabinets to MAME are vector games. Asteroids, Star Wars, and even TEMPEST!

I'm going to print this out and send it to paige's probation officer.  This has to be a probation violation.

[SithMaster]

Im checking ebay for city connection.

edit- only found nes carts.  i guess i should gut the complete/working one in my garage and sell the parts to people who can actually use them.

Actually. Besides generic JAMMA cabinets (most of which were actually once classics themselves). the BEST cabinets to MAME are vector games. Asteroids, Star Wars, and even TEMPEST!

I'm going to print this out and send it to paige's probation officer.  This has to be a probation violation.

whats wrong with putting mame in a star wars cab?  (as long as it only plays star wars and looks as original as possible)

[Xiaou2]

  Most Cabs are just boxes.   They can be duplicated without much trouble.  Art is even
duplicated.   The real hard parts to duplicate are the controls and the PCBs...  and soon, 
arcade CRT monitors.


 I say, if you want to PRESERVE history,  then start to DOCUMENT the exact dimensions
of the cabs in greatest detail.   Same for the controls.   Each part dissected and measured.

 If anything, duplication will get easier and easier to accomplish..  with few exceptions.

 BUT, if there is no Knowledge,  then the is No way to duplicate anything.


 So, put up or shut up... and go thru and measure every nook and cranny of you cab...
and start a database of them.

[Mauzy]

What about cabs that there are literally tens of thousands of like Ms Pac? Especially if the original side art is gone (not "needs a bunch of touch up paint" gone but "sanded with three coats of primer and 4 of black paint" gone) and its got a serial of 12XXX?



No reason. Just wondering...


BTW: I didn't sand it, the guy before me did...

[paigeoliver]

I am not really sure that it matters all that much anymore, few classic vids will be around in another 20 years, and there won't be alot of interest in actually playing the ones that are around. I imagine they will still be popular movie props though.

Ripping up classic vids is still stupid, but in the longer scheme of things there aren't going to be a whole lot of working ones around in the 2020s anyway. Most black and white games have already died in the circuitry department, and I imagine the color ones aren't far behind.

Also, in case you haven't noticed production of new arcade games has all but stopped.

[SirPeale]

You're right, Paige.  We should just halt trying to preserve them altogether.

[ChadTower]

We should focus on ancient pickup trucks instead.  Good call.

[hulkster]

well i will speak for both sides of the fence here:

its okay to mame a classic when you are starting out.  when i first thought about building my own arcade machine, i was just desperate to find any arcade cabinet and gut it to put my frankpanel on.  i was so excited about the possibility of playing mortal kombat, donkey kong, and street fighter all on the same cabinet with joysticks and buttons instead of a keyboard, that it didnt really matter what cab i got...it was going to be gutted.  so for beginners, i would say its just fine to mame a classic.

now, on the other hand, knowing what i know now, i would not mame a classic cab like a pacman or galaga cab.  however, the only reason i wouldnt is because if i redo it and fix it up and stuff....i can sell it and make money off of it.  i dont have the means or space to put 30 machines in my house so my thought process is "hmmm....do i preserve this pacman cab, or do i mame it so i can play pacman and 10,000 other games?".  yeah, no brainer for me.  classics are great and all, but if my objective is to play other games, then i would probably end up keeping the original art and paint, and then mameing it. 

point being, not everyone can put multiple cabs in their house, and not everyone has the skill to make one themselves, or the patience...hence the reason people mame classic cabs.  there are plans out that you can build your own pacman cab inch by inch and no one would ever know the difference (for the most part)...so its like the tree hugger hippie people say....if you kill a tree, you need to plant one.  well they dont actually say that, but hey, it meets my needs here.  if someone destroys a cab, and it pisses you off....then go build one to replace it, or shutup.

[ChadTower]

I don't agree that a person's knowledge level dictates the morality of their actions in this case.  It may be worse if an experienced guy mames a classic but that doesn't make it right if a newbie does it.

[CheffoJeffo]

for beginners, i would say its just fine to mame a classic.

 

[hulkster]

I don't agree that a person's knowledge level dictates the morality of their actions in this case.  It may be worse if an experienced guy mames a classic but that doesn't make it right if a newbie does it.

i agree, however mameing classics now even with what i know isnt necessarily a "moral issue" for me.  its more of a financial decision.  if i got a free pacman cab with original art, and just needed new paint.  i would preserve and sell it to make some good money.  if i could not sell and make enough money however, i would mame it, but keep the original art, cp, etc....but just take out the circuitry.  but id sell the circuitry to people like you