Kitchen cabinet refacing

[ChadTower]

Okay, it's definitely time to do this once the tax return and other funds come in and the weather warms up.  Our kitchen cabinets need refacing.  They are custom built, strong cabinets, built onto the wall.  No MDF here.  Currently they are coated in quite a few layers of paint (they were like that when we bought the house) in an odd aquamarine color that has long since been faded and worn.

Last year I took one door off and sanded it down to see how long it would take to strip and stain the whole thing.  Granted I used a Black and Decker random orbit sander but it still took several hours just to sand one door down to a smooth clean finish.  Dude must have primed the snot out of these things back in the day.  The result didn't look all that great on the curved edges, either.

So, other than just strip some paint and then repaint, I'd like to reface.  I will get pics up of the cabinets as they are but I'm not looking at anything complex here.  Take off the doors, cover the cabinets with a finished wood and new doors.  Drawers too.  As suggested in the tools thread I'm looking here for examples.  Right now, the first thing I'm not sure of is what to use to cover the cabinets.  Would I use a sort of prefinished very thin manufactured wood and cut it to fit?

[shardian]

The cabinets in my kitchen suck too, and I would like to modify/refinish them. I'll be keeping an eye on your project Chad.
Ideally, I'd like to take one out of the kitchen at a time and refinish/repair them.

[ChadTower]

That would be a good approach if possible.  Mine are built in wraparound cabinets that cover half the room.  It would be a much much larger project to do that for us.

[xmenxmen]

When both of U guys are done, come on over and give me a hand when I tackle my parent's cabinets.  For theirs, it will most like just be taking the doors off, sand off the stain, and just restain it.    Even that seems to be a lot of work.

[ChadTower]

Does that include an offer to help us do ours first? 

[shardian]

Does that include an offer to help us do ours first? 

Yeah, no doubt!

[ChadTower]

Doing some googles and reading of crappy generic "tutorials".

I hear the name Rockler a lot around here so I followed a link from one of those articles. 

Veneers from Rockler.

EDIT:  Article at Rockler on how to reface cabinets with veneer.

[fatfingers]

Must be something in the water...my cabinets need refinishing too.   

[ScottS]

The first thing I'd do is get a professional that does cabinet refacing to come out and give you an estimate. Along the way, you can ask them a lot of questions about exactly how the work is done, what materials are used, what tools, etc. If you show some concern about toxic chemicals and sawdust, I'm sure they'll tell you more than you want to know about their process and why it's so great. You'll also get a lower-bound on the amount of time it will take and a ballpark estimate of how much it'll cost. You'll probably pay more for materials, but you'll get the labor for free; might be a toss-up as to whether you actually save money or not.

I believe the approach suggested by Rockler is pretty much the same one that professional refacing companies use: pull the doors off, apply pressure sensitive (a.k.a. "self stick") veneer, then bolt on new doors. Taunton has a book (Refacing Cabinets) that covers the whole process.

Last time I looked, Rockler was pretty expensive for doors and drawer fronts, for whatever that's worth.

I'm not sure where you'd go to find pre-finished PSA wood veneer. I'd also wonder how durable the finish would be. Finishes which are hard, like you'd want on a cabinet, also tend to be brittle which means they wouldn't take kindly to the bending that a sheet of veneer would be subject to. Flexible finishes tend to scratch easier. The other thing I'd be concerned about is getting a consistent look between the veneer and the new doors and drawers. If you just want a clearcoat over the wood, then there probably isn't an issue. But if you want a more complex stain or glaze... it may be difficult to get the door manufacturer to match a specific veneer.

The first thing I'd probably do is find some veneer of the type you'd use on your cabinets and practice veneering a piece of plywood. This should tell you how difficult it is to create invisible seams, make the precise cuts necessary to cover the edges of the face frames, etc.

BTW, if you want to try refinishing the existing cabinets, a chemical stripper or belt-sander will make short work of the paint that's there now. The chemical stripper is probably the easiest way to go, though the belt-sander may be more fun 

[ChadTower]

Thanks for all that, it all helps.  I'd like to avoid using a belt sander since it's actually in the house and I don't want my family to be sucking paint dust for the next three years.  A chemical stripper is worth looking into, though again, I'd have to sand afterwards.

EDIT:  forgot to say that what you said about the finishes not matching makes sense.  Seems that perhaps the best plan is an unfinished veneer and unfinished doors.  That way you can apply the same stain to both.  The hope there, of course, is that they both accept the stain in a somewhat similar manner.

[ChadTower]

I'm posting notes as I learn more.

This is the type of door I have currently.




The type of drawers, though mine may actually be partially inset as well.

[SavannahLion]

Must be something in the water...my cabinets need refinishing too.   

It's the water alright. About six feet of the frozen stuff gave my Moms dogs cabin fever and one of them tore a cabinet door and drawer face right off. Guess who has to repair it once the snow melts? 

[ChadTower]

Holy ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---!  I just did some initial price checking at Rockler... my estimated sizes are coming out from $125-200 per door!

[shardian]

I ruined a child's rocker the one time I tried to use chemical stripper. I am hesitant about doing it again. Mainly, I was considering just painting the cabinets with a spray gun to simplify things using a complimentaty color scheme to match what the kitchen will be. I also want to add sturdier shelves and some drawer type shelves.

[ScottS]

Thanks for all that, it all helps.  I'd like to avoid using a belt sander since it's actually in the house and I don't want my family to be sucking paint dust for the next three years.  A chemical stripper is worth looking into, though again, I'd have to sand afterwards.

I have a Bosch 1274DVS 3"x21" belt sander. With a good vac (e.g. Fein, Festool) hooked up, dust control is actually very good. If your pockets are very, very deep all of Festool's products have great dust collection.

Chemical strippers trade dust for noxious fumes. Depending on what you have for counter-tops and flooring, you'll probably want to make sure there's no way for the stripper to drip off the cabinets and onto something else. Once the stripper has done it's job, you can probably sand with a random-orbit sander connected to a vac and get near 100% dust collection. If the wood was in relatively good shape to start with, you might not need to do too much sanding...

EDIT:  forgot to say that what you said about the finishes not matching makes sense.  Seems that perhaps the best plan is an unfinished veneer and unfinished doors.  That way you can apply the same stain to both.  The hope there, of course, is that they both accept the stain in a somewhat similar manner.

If you don't mind doing the finishing yourself, this assures the best results. One caveat is that most kitchen cabinets use fairly sophisticated finishes that aren't appropriate for home use. The finish is generally fairly thin ("close to the wood") and very hard. Typically, it's a pre-catalyzed lacquer that needs to be applied using HVLP spray equipment in an explosion-proof spray booth. Stains, glazes, and clearcoats may all be involved. Don't want to discourage you from doing the finishing yourself, but I would suggest experimenting with some test boards so you get a feel for how long the finishing process will take; for me, it's always the most time consuming part of a project!

[DrewKaree]

I'm posting notes as I learn more.

This is the type of door I have currently.

Based on what you're showing above, do the INTERIOR of the cabinets have to be dealt with, or don't you care, and you just want to freshen the outer facade up?  I'ma assume you just want a new face on your cabinets.  Questions to follow:

#1  First, is that face frame on your cabinets one big piece over several cabinets, or do you have an individual face frame for each cabinet? 

#2  Probably one of the more important question is if you want to have new stuff you're going to paint, or a natural wood finish you'll stain.   

#3  Are you good with working on gradually replacing the faces one by one (meaning will the wife tolerate half a finished look while you're working on it, so as not to stress/push/rush you)?

#4  Are you going to factor in buying some tools you probably don't have, such as a biscuit jointer, pocket screw jig and pocket screws, clamps, panel raising bits, a router table (it'll make your router work for this project FAR LESS of a PITA for you)

#5  Are your drawers in bad enough shape that you want to replace the entire drawer, or do you just want to replace the drawer fronts?

[ChadTower]

Based on what you're showing above, do the INTERIOR of the cabinets have to be dealt with, or don't you care, and you just want to freshen the outer facade up?  I'ma assume you just want a new face on your cabinets.  Questions to follow:

The interior of the cabinets is painted white, like the cabinets themselves.  The doors are a 70s aquamarine over about 5 other coats of paint.  Even if I just repaint, I need to strip the existing paint first, since the top coat is already too soft.

#1  First, is that face frame on your cabinets one big piece over several cabinets, or do you have an individual face frame for each cabinet?

 

I'm pretty sure the answer is one big piece.  The cabinets are contiguous and if you took the doors off there is no paneling or decorative pieces on the framing.  Just flat wood.

#2  Probably one of the more important question is if you want to have new stuff you're going to paint, or a natural wood finish you'll stain.

Stain.  If I decide to repaint instead I'm just going to strip the cabinets and doors and repaint them as is.  They are all in excellent physical shape other than the finish and the hardware is really old.

#3  Are you good with working on gradually replacing the faces one by one (meaning will the wife tolerate half a finished look while you're working on it, so as not to stress/push/rush you)?

I'm good with that and I'm sure my wife would be so long as it didn't take two years.  I can't see it happening all at once without my taking a month off of work.

#4  Are you going to factor in buying some tools you probably don't have, such as a biscuit jointer, pocket screw jig and pocket screws, clamps, panel raising bits, a router table (it'll make your router work for this project FAR LESS of a PITA for you)

The total cost is of course a factor but I don't mind buying tools to do it right.  Obviously I don't want to spend three grand but I don't see that happening either.

#5  Are your drawers in bad enough shape that you want to replace the entire drawer, or do you just want to replace the drawer fronts?

Drawers are in excellent shape and rail hardware is too.  It is all very well built basic stuff, just old looking in the finish dept.

[DrewKaree]

#1  First, is that face frame on your cabinets one big piece over several cabinets, or do you have an individual face frame for each cabinet?

 

I'm pretty sure the answer is one big piece.  The cabinets are contiguous and if you took the doors off there is no paneling or decorative pieces on the framing.  Just flat wood.

Odds are that there won't be any of that paneling or decorative pieces.  What you'll be looking for is a seam between each cabinet that would tell you if each cabinet has an idividual face frame.  If you can, from the bottom edge, look for that seam or perhaps take a knife to it to see if there's a seam that's just been painted over so many times that it's disappeared. 

Either way, since you're wanting something you can stain instead of repaint, you should be able to easily build new face frames.  Doors you can either buy prefabbed or if you're liking the newfound "Hey, I did that!" feeling, you can make your own.  Not cheap, but not as hard and/or as expensive as you'd think.

The face frames are easily built using either pocket screws or biscuits.  The biscuits would be a better application in this instance, IMO.  You may even be able to walk in and use stock lumber to create your face frames.  You have several choices of wood to choose from.  If you can get away with stock pieces, you might wish to go with oak, otherwise you could go with some nicer pine or cedar even.....best to look at what's available around you, since I know wood is more expensive for you in your state than it is for me here. 

If you can make individual face frames, that's even better, as you can work on one cabinet at a time, and you can set up a routine or use a jig to get things to come out in a uniform manner, and I think you and your wife will get more excited as the project unfolds if this is the case.

I'd price out a dedicated biscuit jointer for this, as well.  Getting a slot-cutter for your router will work, but it's not as nice and easy to work with as the dedicated tool, and setup is way easier (to me) than the router setup.  Bosch makes a nice one, as does Ridgid and DeWalt.  I've got the DeWalt, but if I were purchasing another one, I'd pick up the Ridgid.  The Bosch is the only other biscuit jointer I've ever seen people recommend, which is why I added it, but for no other reason than that. 

I'd also say pick up a cheap pancake compressor/nailer set to attach the face frames to the cabinet itself.  Mebbe $150-200.  Look for Bostich or Senco.  You could attach the face frames with the biscuit jointer as well, but that might be more of a headache for you to line all that up and over the entire kitchen it'll prolly end up frustrating you more than spending the money on a nailer.

Lastly, on the drawer front (HA! ) is it possible that you can simply undo the hardware and remove the drawer front, or is the joint something that you'd have to duplicate (like a finger joint or dovetail)?  The best scenario is that you can simply replace the drawer fronts, which means you'd just run something through your router.  I'm doubtful that it'll be that simple though.  I'd say try a chemical stripper and then sand and stain on one drawer to see what the results will look like.  If it sucks, go with prefab, if you're happy with it, great.  Perhaps ask the wife if she can give you a complimentary color that you can just repaint 'em if they're not stainable too.

See if you can hunt up some examples of building a face frame today so you can see what that'd entail, and also give you a better idea of what to look at when you get home too.  It's an easy enough project that you can be VERY confident of pulling off an excellent result.  The doors are a bit more complicated, and the drawers being the most complicated (probably) of this project, but you should be able to tackle everything with reasonable success.

[ChadTower]

Odds are that there won't be any of that paneling or decorative pieces.  What you'll be looking for is a seam between each cabinet that would tell you if each cabinet has an idividual face frame.  If you can, from the bottom edge, look for that seam or perhaps take a knife to it to see if there's a seam that's just been painted over so many times that it's disappeared. 

Got it.  It's not individual cabinets and instinct tells me that any face joints are going to be asynchronous depending on what length frame pieces were used.  Wherever the joints are they are definitely under multiple layers of paint.  It appears as though the cabinets were built onto the wall and then faced afterwards. 

Either way, since you're wanting something you can stain instead of repaint, you should be able to easily build new face frames.  Doors you can either buy prefabbed or if you're liking the newfound "Hey, I did that!" feeling, you can make your own.  Not cheap, but not as hard and/or as expensive as you'd think.

I'd be perfectly satisfied with using premade doors, especially if it substantially cuts the project duration and adds some quality.  Cost is a factor here as I figure the doors to be the most expensive part.

The face frames are easily built using either pocket screws or biscuits.  The biscuits would be a better application in this instance, IMO.

I don't know what those are yet but can look them up this afternoon.  Wikipedia is really good on this stuff I've noticed.

If you can make individual face frames, that's even better, as you can work on one cabinet at a time, and you can set up a routine or use a jig to get things to come out in a uniform manner, and I think you and your wife will get more excited as the project unfolds if this is the case.

Works for me.  I have an island cabinet, of the same construction, that I can remove from the kitchen and use to test the process.  My wife wants to remove that from the kitchen anyway to create more space so I can bring it out to the shed and go mad woodworker on it.

I'd price out a dedicated biscuit jointer for this, as well. 

Will do. 

I'd also say pick up a cheap pancake compressor/nailer set to attach the face frames to the cabinet itself.  Mebbe $150-200. 

I have an older air compressor/tank combo I picked up off Freecycle last year.  I haven't tried it but it appears to be in excellent shape and the woman told me her father used it to paint their house a few years ago.

Lastly, on the drawer front (HA! ) is it possible that you can simply undo the hardware and remove the drawer front,

I actually have a different idea.  Since the fronts are solid wood, as are all sides of the drawer, I was thinking of just trimming the front to match the drawer sides, and then putting a new face on it.  It would add a bit to the depth of the drawer but there is very likely enough room behind the drawers to absorb that.

See if you can hunt up some examples of building a face frame today so you can see what that'd entail, and also give you a better idea of what to look at when you get home too. 

Will do that too, later this afternoon when work slows down.  Thanks for all the advice, I really appreciate it.  I can snag some pics of the cabinets tonight to give a solid idea of what we're looking at.

[ScottS]

Either way, since you're wanting something you can stain instead of repaint, you should be able to easily build new face frames.  Doors you can either buy prefabbed or if you're liking the newfound "Hey, I did that!" feeling, you can make your own.  Not cheap, but not as hard and/or as expensive as you'd think.

You can do this... but I wouldn't recommend it! Removing the existing face frames without damaging the cabinet boxes would be a time-consuming, difficult process at best! If there was any wood glue used to attach the existing face frames to the cabinets, you'll destroy the cabinet box before the face frame comes loose! Nailing a new face frame over the existing one is a possibility, but my guess it that the double-thickness would look pretty strange.

There's a reason professional refacing companies use self-stick laminates for this stuff.

The face frames are easily built using either pocket screws or biscuits.  The biscuits would be a better application in this instance, IMO.  You may even be able to walk in and use stock lumber to create your face frames.  You have several choices of wood to choose from.  If you can get away with stock pieces, you might wish to go with oak, otherwise you could go with some nicer pine or cedar even.....best to look at what's available around you, since I know wood is more expensive for you in your state than it is for me here.

Nobody (that I know anyway) builds face frames with biscuits these days. In fact, Porter-Cable is the only company I know of that makes a biscuit joiner capable of biscuiting face fames.

Using pine, cedar or another softwood to make face frames for kitchen cabinets is just asking for trouble, IMHO. Kitchen cabinets take a lot of abuse over time. If you're going to build new face frames, which I think is a bad idea, for God's sake use a hardwood!

I'd price out a dedicated biscuit jointer for this, as well.  Getting a slot-cutter for your router will work, but it's not as nice and easy to work with as the dedicated tool, and setup is way easier (to me) than the router setup.  Bosch makes a nice one, as does Ridgid and DeWalt.  I've got the DeWalt, but if I were purchasing another one, I'd pick up the Ridgid.  The Bosch is the only other biscuit jointer I've ever seen people recommend, which is why I added it, but for no other reason than that. 

If Bosch makes a biscuit joiner, it's news to me. The Porter-Cable 557 is the one I own and also the one that everyone recommends. DeWalt also makes a pretty good one, but it can't handle the small face-frame biscuits that the P-C does. Lamello is the only other recommended company... and their tools cost 3X more than anyone else.

If you want a biscuit joiner, I'd be happy to sell my Porter-Cable. It's the most useless tool in my shop...

I'd also say pick up a cheap pancake compressor/nailer set to attach the face frames to the cabinet itself.  Mebbe $150-200.  Look for Bostich or Senco.  You could attach the face frames with the biscuit jointer as well, but that might be more of a headache for you to line all that up and over the entire kitchen it'll prolly end up frustrating you more than spending the money on a nailer.

Don't bother with Bostich or Senco. The Porter-Cable compressor/nailer kits are the best value on the market these days. That said, I wouldn't buy a kit again. The oil-less compressors included are just too loud for my tastes. I'd also suggest you don't use nails to attach your face frames; they're just too visible. My preference would be to use pocket screws from the outside of the case in conjunction with glue. If you do want to use nails, because they're faster, I'd suggest using 23ga headless pins (which you won't find as part of any kit). Grex makes the best pinners, though I've heard the Porter-Cable models are decent. The nice thing about pins is they have good holding power, when used correctly, and you don't have to worry about filling lots of holes.

[DrewKaree]

The face frames are easily built using either pocket screws or biscuits.  The biscuits would be a better application in this instance, IMO.

I don't know what those are yet but can look them up this afternoon.  Wikipedia is really good on this stuff I've noticed.

Check here for my biscuit jointer and what/how it works a few posts down from there:

Shortened linky here

As for pocket screws, the most well-known setup is the Kreg jig



Rockler will give you all kinds of information on 'em.  The only reason I would go with biscuits in this application is that you can nail right through 'em, so you wouldn't have to worry about placement, whereas you might hit a screw.  The other benefit to biscuits is that the biscuit actually creates a stronger joint than the pocket screws, although for this use, strength of the joint isn't going to be as important as in other applications.  Here's Rockler's page on that jig above (note the price!)

http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=2085&filter=Kreg

On that drawer idea, you also could take your router and, using a jig, hollow out the backside of the piece you want to use as a drawer front and simply glue it to the existing drawer front.  You could drill right through the old holes and continue using the old hardware, giving you some time before you go and drop a fistful of loot on all new hardware.

Pics of your situation will be MOST helpful!

[ChadTower]

Okay, pics will be taken tonight.  This is definitely getting out of my knowledge zone so I need to catch up with all of the terms being used over the next day or two.  I don't have a router yet but have been itching for a reason to buy one (and did just buy the bit kit from the Price Watch thread).

[DrewKaree]

CRAP I HATE LOSING A POST


Scott, my DeWalt biscuit jointer has been used to make many face frames in just this way, which is why I recommended it.  Bosch definitely sells one, and if you're selling yours, what sizes will it do?  Chad would probably be getting a good deal, and also something that would work quite well. 

As far as softwoods go, if you notice, I recommended a hardwood, but he also lives in an area of the country where wood can be quite pricey, and maybe it's just me, but I just don't see the quarter to half inch of reveal of a face frame to be receiving enough abuse that other woods including softwoods should be ruled out if a hardwood is going to be priced at a level he doesn't feel justifies it for this use. 

Lastly, unless I'm not understanding you, how would he be using pocket screws from the outside of his face frames?

[ChadTower]

Drew is right about the wood... we get pine really cheap here because it's closeby but most other woods end up costing a lot more.

[GadgetGeek]

Just a thought here.  You say the wood is in good shape.  Consider removing all the doors and having someone else strip the paint from them.  Then you just have to deal with the face frames.  They should all be mostly flat surfaces so some chemical stripper and light sanding might not be too difficult.  Then stain everything and re-attach the doors.

Another thought would be to go to a cabinet store (or big box hardware store) and order unfinished doors from them.

[ChadTower]

If the stripping isn't too difficult (and you are right about this), no point in paying someone else to do it.  We've raised ordering doors as a possibility as well and at least as of now I'm leaning in that direction.

[ChadTower]

Okay, read up on the pocket screws, I get that now.  Make the face frame with the pockets on the inside and then attach to the cabinet so that they are not seen.  Read up on the biscuit joiner, too, which just cuts some slots inside the two corner pieces and you put a wooden connector piece with glue in the slots.

Can I assume the advantage of pocket screws is cost while the biscuit joiner may do a bit of a simpler and better job but the joiner is expensive?

[ScottS]

Scott, my DeWalt biscuit jointer has been used to make many face frames in just this way, which is why I recommended it.  Bosch definitely sells one, and if you're selling yours, what sizes will it do?  Chad would probably be getting a good deal, and also something that would work quite well. 

Bosch may sell one... but it isn't listed on their website and can't be ordered from Amazon.

How do you make face frames with a biscuit jointer that won't handle size FF biscuits? Do you just make the face frames really wide? My Porter-Cable will cut slots for everything: FF, #0, #10, #20, Max (a.k.a. #6), Simplex and Duplex. In particular, the FF biscuits require a smaller (2" vs 4") cutter and are used to make joints in wood that's only 1.5" in width. #0 biscuits are too wide to be used in wood this narrow.

As far as softwoods go, if you notice, I recommended a hardwood, but he also lives in an area of the country where wood can be quite pricey, and maybe it's just me, but I just don't see the quarter to half inch of reveal of a face frame to be receiving enough abuse that other woods including softwoods should be ruled out if a hardwood is going to be priced at a level he doesn't feel justifies it for this use.

Face frames are exposed to all kinds of abuse: banging from pots and pans, plates, canned goods, doors and drawers slamming, or whatever. Pine dents if you look at it cross-eyed, so I wouldn't expect it to last long in a kitchen. In fact, I suspect that even kitchens with that knotty pine/country look probably use a light-colored hardwood (e.g. maple) for their face frames.

If you don't trust me, call some custom cabinet shops in your area and see what they're using for face frames. Tell them you're interested in using pine or cedar and see what they have to say...

Finally, if cost is a concern consider going mail-order. There are some very good lumber yards that will ship wood via UPS or truck freight. Since you don't need boards that are very long or wide, UPS is a very viable option.

Lastly, unless I'm not understanding you, how would he be using pocket screws from the outside of his face frames?

You'd make the face frames using whatever method you want. I'd suggest pocket screws, but biscuits could also work.

Then you clamp your pocket hole jig to the outside edge of your cabinet carcass and drill a hole through the outside face and the front edge of the carcass. Make a bunch of these holes on both vertical sides of the carcass. For base cabinets, you should also make holes on the tops and bottoms of the carcass, again drilling through the outside face of the cabinet. For hanging cabinets, you can make holes on the top side; if the bottom is going to be visible don't drill holes there.

Then you apply some wood glue to the front edge of the cabinet caracass, clamp the face frame to the carcass, and screw through the pocket holes and into the back of the face frame to complete the attachment. Because cabinets are installed side-by-side the pocket holes on the outside face of the carcass will be hidden... except on the end cabinets. On the end cabinets, you'd typically install a decorative end panel to hide the sides of the carcass.

[ScottS]

Can I assume the advantage of pocket screws is cost while the biscuit joiner may do a bit of a simpler and better job but the joiner is expensive?

The advantage of pocket screws is speed! With biscuits, you have to apply glue, clamp the face frame together... and wait. With pocket screws, you apply glue, apply one clamp to keep the joint together (with biscuits, you'll need at least four), drive the screw home, then immediately go to the next task. The screw holds the wood together while the glue sets.

[ChadTower]

Hadn't considered speed that makes perfect sense.

I'm not sure using pocket screws to attach the face to the cabinets would be practical given that I will not take the cabinets down.  They're all one piece most of the way across the room.  If I wanted to do that, if I understand your image, I'd have to do it from the inside of the cabinets for most of the run.

I had a thought on the above comment regarding the potential difficulting in removing the existing face frame to avoid having a double thick face.  The face is flush with the exterior walls, nothing protruding.  Is there a reason it would be bad to just trim off the interior of the face so that it is flush with both inside and outside, thus leaving only the face that would appear to be part of the cabinet?  It would increase depth of the cabinet by the depth of the frame but that's not a problem as I see it.

[DrewKaree]

I'm having a hell of a time today remembering to copy replies before hitting post.  Scott, I had one all whipped up for them and lost the whole dang thing.  Suffice it to say, the face frames we make using my DeWalt aren't for individual cabinets.  Think 2 stretchers with stiles to cover the edges of the cabinet.  There's more, but I don't think I'll get back to it, other than to say there's links out there, but it appears that Bosch is deciding to drop their biscuit jointer, although I'm fairly certain that's what my brother-in-law has (or it's a Makita ) and that one can do FF's that we use for individual face frames.

Chad, if that's the route you want to go, you could use your handy dandy router to do that if you so decided, although it might be cumbersome for you without some additions to make the base more stable.  Perhaps a palm-sized router like a Bosch Colt or the Ridgid model would be better suited to that.

The only reason I see for not going that route is that you'll have to strip the paint from what's left, and if you're going to have to strip the paint, you might as well strip ALL the paint and reuse the face frame if it's in decent shape.

[DrewKaree]

Can I assume the advantage of pocket screws is cost while the biscuit joiner may do a bit of a simpler and better job but the joiner is expensive?

The advantage of pocket screws is speed! With biscuits, you have to apply glue, clamp the face frame together... and wait. With pocket screws, you apply glue, apply one clamp to keep the joint together (with biscuits, you'll need at least four), drive the screw home, then immediately go to the next task. The screw holds the wood together while the glue sets.

Yeah, I didn't take that into account, but for the biscuited frames we do, we tack them onto the cabinet so as to dispose of the need for clamps

[ChadTower]

The only reason I see for not going that route is that you'll have to strip the paint from what's left, and if you're going to have to strip the paint, you might as well strip ALL the paint and reuse the face frame if it's in decent shape.

Why would I have to strip the paint from what's left?  In this scenario we're just going to face frame over it, right?

[DrewKaree]

I've got a Matrix lag that comes and goes today.  I'm getting what you're saying now.  I think I might need a nap or summink.

Might have gaps and whatnot, although it might be close enough that you don't mind, or you can sand it to where you want it.  If the original face frame isn't attached very well, then I'd say don't do it - then just rip it off to make sure you're starting fresh and that you know everything that was done to it.  Not ideal, but I can see it being less of a hassle for you in the long run, and being perfectly serviceable.

[ChadTower]

The original face frame is attached like they were going to use it to hold a midget in a hardhat hanging from a girder attached to nothing.  It is not coming off without destroying the cabinet.  That's why I think it should be trimmed flush if anything at all.

[DrewKaree]

Sounds like the house was built around it.  I'm betting they threw everythign up and built as they go - not uncommon, I think, for your area.

I'd say go for it then.  That sounds like a complete cabinet rip-out otherwise.  Get a rare earth magnet and run it over the face frame to see and mark if/where they used any nails so you don't screw up the installation of the new frame.

[ScottS]

This all seems like a lot of work. What does it gain over just applying self-adhesive veneer like the pros do?

[DrewKaree]

Not having to worry about it peeling up, being misapplied, trimmed improperly.  Adding a face frame adds steps and more effort, but prep and application of veneers with his situation might not be as easy for him to do as simply "starting fresh" with a new face frame.

[ChadTower]

The face frame will be a much better result, too, I'd imagine.

[ScottS]

The face frame will be a much better result, too, I'd imagine.

I think "better" depends on your definition. It will certainly involve more work and a lot more mess in your kitchen. Once you route the existing face frame into oblivion, you're comitted: your kitchen won't be complete until you get the new face frames installed. I suspect that attaching your new face frames to the cabinets, getting everything lined up, scribing to walls, etc. will be challenging. It's easier when you're installing new cabinets because the cabinet carcasses aren't fixed in place like yours will be. Heck, just trimming the existing face frames might be an interesting challenge if your kitchen is anything like mine; I have several places where I'm not sure I could get a laminate trimmer in to trim the face frame (e.g. cabinets next to walls, where the top edge of base cabinets meets the counter).

Self-stick veneer, on the other hand, is relatively cheap and easy. It's also the approach recommended and used by everyone under the sun. If you get in over your head and it doesn't work out, you can peel or sand the veneer off and repaint the existing face frame.

[ChadTower]

Well I definitely plan to use the island cabinet to at least experiment with both techniques.  Worst case is that I learn both and end up with a buttload of new tools and skills.  Wouldn't that suck?   

[prOk]

if it was me, i'd get a router with a good templating bit and trim off the frames to convert the shells to a euro style, then, make new doors add new euro hinges and be done with it.    Far easier in the long run than trying to make the old faceframes look like much and you wind up with a better look.

[ChadTower]

Cabs.

[ChadTower]

Cabs 2.

[ScottS]

if it was me, i'd get a router with a good templating bit and trim off the frames to convert the shells to a euro style, then, make new doors add new euro hinges and be done with it.    Far easier in the long run than trying to make the old faceframes look like much and you wind up with a better look.

Euro cabinets rely on having a relatively thick/rigid back in order to keep the cabinet square and plumb. Face frame cabinets rely on the face frame and frequently have a thin (1/4") or even a non-existant back. On face frame cabinets, the face frames usually extend past the edge of the cabinet carcass anywhere from 1/16" to 1/4". Euro cabinets, obviously, are butted up next to each other. Which may mean that you'd have a difficult time finding Euro hinges that will deal with the added (and perhaps inconsistent?) "overlay" between one cabinet and the next.

All of which is to say that attempting to convert from one style to the other may entail some interesting surprises/challenges. But it's certainly an interesting idea! I generally build european "32mm" cabinets because they're easier/quicker and offer a lot more versatility than face frame cabinets.

[DrewKaree]

That first pic makes it look like exactly like they made one large face frame to cover the whole works.  That stile (the vertical piece on the face) looks like it connects into the top rail. 

Does the cabinet interior go right up to the ceiling (looks like it in that pic, anyway)? 

If so, that looks to be what they did - throw the cabinet carcasses up and slapped the face frame up over everything, which means there's a very good possibility they made the face frame as they went right on the cabinets, instead of making the face frame and THEN putting it up and fastening it.  An easy method to replicate for you.

[TroyO]

Something I did with some old wooden windows I reconditioned was using a heatgun to soften the paint and using a scraper. You'd be amazed how fast it can go once you get rolling. (There must have been 10 layers on there... 60 year old house.) The equpment is decently priced too.. probably about what you'd pay for chemical stripper. ($19.99 if I remember correctly.)

Sanding also might not be wise if you think lead paint was used. I'd go chemical or heat and make sure the stuff is collected on a plastic tarp and properly disposed of.

[ChadTower]

I actually don't know if the cabinet has a "roof" or if the top interior surface is the actual ceiling.  I'll look tonight if that's what you're asking.  If you're trying to see if there is any room between the top of the cabinet and the ceiling - if there is, it's hidden under the face frame and the molding.  No one in my house is tall enough to see easily in that top shelf without standing on something so only low traffic stuff goes up there.

[ScottS]

Man, that's a lot of cabinets! Looks impossible to trim the face frames away near the ceiling and countertop. Stiles (= vertical pieces) seem very wide by todays standards, which may make it difficult to get a more modern look without completely replacing the face frame; in my kitchen, for instance, there aren't any stiles between a pair of doors if they open into the same cabinet.

I dunno... I think if it were my kitchen I'd probably save my money and just plan on replacing all of the cabinets and the countertop. If you have a big enough garage, you could attempt to build them yourself. Just be aware that finishing takes 2-4X as long as milling the wood and gluing it together. There are other options that split the difference between cheap+time consuming and expensive+quick. You could build the boxes and do the finish prep, but pay someone else to do the finishing. Or you could buy cheap cabinet carcasses at Ikea (if there's one near you) then add your own doors (and face frames, if you want that look). Or order semi-custom cabinets through Scherr's, Home Depot, etc. and do the install yourself.

The best deal might be to build a DIY CNC router capable of handling a 4x8 sheet of MDF or plywood. Then you could program it to mill as many cabinets (kitchen or arcade) as you want! Get a local guy with an HVLP spray gun and a spray booth to do the finishing and you can start churning out product. The whole thing will pay for itself in no time 

[ChadTower]

I don't have a garage.

If it comes down to that much effort I'll just strip and paint them.  I don't see much point in tearing out a full kitchen of very solid built in cabinets.  About the most effort I would go to in the process is removing the counter tops to get access to the awkward places.

[ChadTower]

So, now that I have a much better understanding of cabinetry and woodworking, I decided to revisit this.  I think I may build new faces as Drew suggested.  If I'm going to bother to do it, I think it's going to be the start of a long redecoration of the house.  I'd like to get it to more of a hardwood finished home, rather than painted trim and cabinets and such.  That includes either refinishing or refreshing the hardwood floors, replacing painted trim with stained, etc.  Replacing interior doors or maybe just stripping and finishing them.  Everything is in good condition physically but old and has enough coats of paint that just repainting isn't an option.

When the time comes to start, I'm going to take that island, and see exactly how the face frames are attached.  If they're not glued on, and I can get them off without damaging the carcasses, perfect.  I'll build new facing.

I was at Lowe's the other day looking at their various cabinet door options just to get a feel for what different woods looked like in cabinet doors.  I want to do simple construction and use the wood itself as the primary feature for a country/rustic look.  From the woods I looked at (cherry, maple, oak, ash, hickory), I definitely thought hickory worked best.  Good color variation and personality in the features.  Hopefully I can actually get enough locally at a price somewhat comparable to the others.

[ChadTower]

Okay, possible change of plans, because I almost wet my pants when I saw this.  A few lines of LEDs, a couple LEDWiz...

[Chris G]

While you're at it, maybe you could hook in some voice recognition software too.  Have it change the color of the cabinet/shelf you need. 

[ChadTower]

Heh.  I could see that getting out of hand quickly.  The kids would start fighting over which color to be and it would look like a disco in the kitchen.

I think this lit cabinet concept would actually be easier than refacing, too.  All I'd have to do is replace the doors and put the LEDs in.

[Chris G]

You could even do a matching touch-sensitive floor like in that Michael Jackson video.

[ChadTower]

"I can't find the sugar!"

<cabinet with the sugar goes red>

That would be kind of cool.

[ScottS]

I think this lit cabinet concept would actually be easier than refacing, too.  All I'd have to do is replace the doors and put the LEDs in.

It all seems easy until you start trying to fish the wires for the electrical stuff through the wall... 

[ChadTower]

I'd probably put it through the back top corner of the cabinet and cover it in a surface running wire hider.  If done in the same color as the cabinet interior you could look right at it and not see it.