Where to find a vector monitor?

[freckleface]

When first getting into MAME I didn't notice the difference vector graphics had on a raster monitor.  Now that I do, I'm interested in getting one.  It seems they're a bit scarce, though.  How come no one makes them anymore?

[D_Zoot]

How come no one makes them anymore?

Because the last commercial vector arcade game produced was in 1985.  Lack of new game production dropped the demand needed for the monitor companies to continue to make them.

Your best bet in locating one these days is either to ask on RGVAC newsgroup or keep an eye out on eBay.

Be aware that a vector monitor is a very different breed from traditional raster monitors and require special, kind of costly, hardware to interface with a PC for a vector MAME machine (a Zektor ZVG).


D

[Rickn]

D. Zoot is right, extremely scarce, although I have been asked to design one, we have kept away from it.

I was Electrohome's Production Engineer for the G07 and most of the raster scan, my repair Tech Nick was the production engineer for G05 and G08.

The experiences and nightmares during the initial production of the G08.....

After various modifications addition of fans, multiple hi watt diodes, it was a good product, so if you continue your search, make sure it has the cooling fans.

I will ask Nick on Monday (he is somewhat of a pack-rat) whether he might still have one???

Good luck

Rick Nieman
Nieman Video Displays
Rick@Niemandisplays.com
Website: Niemandisplays.com

[freckleface]

Hey thanks.  Yeah I looked around and found the ZVG.  Rickn aren't osciliscope monitors the same thing (albeit being monochromatic)? Also, how are tubes made without pixel lines?

[SirPeale]

Also, how are tubes made without pixel lines?

They're not.  Believe it or not, they use the same kind of tube.  The tube that goes to my K4900 (19VLTP22) also goes on a K6400.

[freckleface]

Yeah I originaly figured due to how tubes are made that they would all have pixels...but reading about vec's made me think possibly otherwise.  So it's a matter of how the guns fire on to the screen?

[Level42]

Also, how are tubes made without pixel lines?

They're not.  Believe it or not, they use the same kind of tube.  The tube that goes to my K4900 (19VLTP22) also goes on a K6400.

Huuuuuuhhhhhh !?!?!? I always thought that the CRT was very different ! I thought there was just one layer of phospor on the screen, without "dots" and that the ray lit up just that spot of the screen that it hits. AFAIK oscilloscopes work like that ?

Come to think about it, this could only be true for B/W vectors. Color vectors of course require three guns, each "hitting"  the right colored dots on the screen.....hmmm. So why on earth is no-one building a board-set to convert a conventional monitor (CRT) to a vector ? I guess it must be the yoke preventing  this from being possible ?

I've also read somewhere that with some hacking, it is possible to use a regular TV (monitor) as an oscilloscope (with a very limited bandwidth, but I have no clue what bandwidth an arcade vector would require).

To Rick and Nick: So you've got the skills AND lots of experience with designing/producing vector monitors ! What a shame not start-up a line of vectors......you'll be the only busines in the world making them, think about it There's also a lot of "added value" because the old vectors are becoming rare and worn-out....AND think of a brand new market ! If I could buy a reliable brand-new vector now, I would also invest in a Zektor-vector right away and finaly built that MAME-vector cab ! You could team-up with the Zektor vector guys as well and sell it as a kit ? The Zektor-vector could even be built-in straight in the monitor !

Maybe I'm on a pink cloud, but imagine, you could be the saviours of the vectors I think that's Nobel-prize stuff

Thinking about it: we are now about 20 years further in time. Wouldn't there be more reliable components now ? Wouldn't it be possibel to include IC's that are used f.i. in oscilloscopes to use less parts compared to then (check out the difference in number of components on the 25 year old monitors with now) ?

[freckleface]

I'm wondering why if an external hardware device can provide the right signal, why can't it be duplicated in software?

On the other part this is another example I've been thinking about lately: notice the monitor companies are still mainly dealing with game manufacturers? Yet there's this huge (at least to me) retro/home cabinet market...

[Hawkypro]

freckleface

Not sure if your looking to buy, but quartercade has one.

http://www.quarterarcade.com/Game.aspx/6581

[freckleface]

Hey, thanks. I'm more interested in a color vec, which is what I think Rickn was talking about being such an engineering beast. I like that frame design though.

[SavannahLion]

OK, forget I said anything. No matter how I phrase my two cents, it isn't making any sense. 

[Level42]

See how tiny that PCB is on that Electorhome ? So, can anyone explain:

1) What is so hard about re-building a PCB like that ?
2) Why were vector monitors so unreliable ? I see plenty of Vextrex machines being offered everywhere, they "all" seem to be still running fine.
3) Is a B/W vector CRT really "dotted". I personaly don't think so. The very special effect that games like Asteroids have were lost on the color vectors...it's that oscilloscope like effect...

[freckleface]

Only knowing a little about video stuff, I'd think in general the difference between B/W and color vecs is the same as tv's. You know how stark B/W tv's are; the guns are different.

[D_Zoot]

the difference between B/W and color vecs is the same as tv's. You know how stark B/W tv's are; the guns are different.

The primary difference between vector and raster monitors is the way the yoke is driven.      In a raster monitor (or TV) the electron beam(s) emitted from the electron guns is "scanned" from left to right, top to bottom.  This scanning occurs even when the screen is blank.  The electron gun(s) are turned on and off during the scan thus "painting" the picture, one row at a time.

In a vector monitor there is no constant scanning movement of the beam(s).  Instead the beam is moved to any given point, the gun turned on, beam moved to another point, gun turned off.  It's more like connect the dots with the image being "drawn" by a series of straight lines. 

The picture tubes used in either type of monitor aren't different, however the yokes are very different.  Since a vector monitor doesn't need to continually scan the beams at a controlled rate, vector monitors generally need fewer electronic components in the design, thus the reason the boards appear to be simplistic.

While the general principals of vector monitors are fairly simple, the electrical engineering is complex (the math is mind boggling!), and with the very limited demand, designing and building a monitor would be hard to justify.

D

[FrizzleFried]

I am not sure the demand ISN'T there.   A good number of folks simply have given up.  There are a BOATLOAD of vector cabinets needing monitors and I think if a SINGLE manufacturer was to put out a new one,  I think they would sell enough units make a profit and justify the engineering costs...

[CheffoJeffo]

I am not sure the demand ISN'T there.   A good number of folks simply have given up.  There are a BOATLOAD of vector cabinets needing monitors and I think if a SINGLE manufacturer was to put out a new one,  I think they would sell enough units make a profit and justify the engineering costs...

Would that it were so ... if the demand wasn't there when the collecting market was booming, I can't see it being there now, although there are now a couple of options for replacement HV units.

Cheers.

[D_Zoot]

I am not sure the demand ISN'T there.   A good number of folks simply have given up.  There are a BOATLOAD of vector cabinets needing monitors and I think if a SINGLE manufacturer was to put out a new one,  I think they would sell enough units make a profit and justify the engineering costs...

The issue is further complicated by the fact that not all vector monitors are interchangeable (unlike standard res raster monitors).   There are B/W and color,  with color there are models that perform pincushion correction on the monitor chassis, some rely on the game board.  Then there are Cinematronics vector monitors that employ D/A conversion on the monitor chassis instead of the game board.  So,  if you wanted to invest in building a vector monitor,  what would you build?   If you designed and built an Amplifone replacement, for example, your target sales market would only be a portion of those people looking for vector monitors as the rest would be looking for a B/W or Cinematronics.


D

[freckleface]

That's grim. Seems the best way to revive it would be to redesign new version of all those games' hardware for re-issue and one monitor for all.  (If that's possible.) Maybe there's a way to combine raster and vector approaches.

[FrizzleFried]

...I stand corrected.  Good luck!

[Level42]

I am not sure the demand ISN'T there.   A good number of folks simply have given up.  There are a BOATLOAD of vector cabinets needing monitors and I think if a SINGLE manufacturer was to put out a new one,  I think they would sell enough units make a profit and justify the engineering costs...

The issue is further complicated by the fact that not all vector monitors are interchangeable (unlike standard res raster monitors).   There are B/W and color,  with color there are models that perform pincushion correction on the monitor chassis, some rely on the game board.  Then there are Cinematronics vector monitors that employ D/A conversion on the monitor chassis instead of the game board.  So,  if you wanted to invest in building a vector monitor,  what would you build?   If you designed and built an Amplifone replacement, for example, your target sales market would only be a portion of those people looking for vector monitors as the rest would be looking for a B/W or Cinematronics.


D

As I mentioned: Combine a new vector with the Zektor Vector PCB, and all those worries are gone. There would be only one choice left: B/W or color.
(with one exception, the amplifone Color CRT was mid-res. A new vector monitor should have (at least) a mid-res CRT.