Wii VS. PS3

[geomartin]

I was at the local Toys R Us today in Stockton, CA.  They were, and have been completely sold out of Wii's.  They had nearly 20 PS3's in stock!  Is Nintendo winning the console war?

[ChadTower]

So far they have dominated the price and word of mouth wars, that's for damn sure.

[FrizzleFried]

I read "somewhere" that the PS3 is bringing in "dismal numbers".   It's hard to justify the purchase when they are essentially selling "next gen now",  but in fact we've had "next gen" since the 360 came out...for less.

Consoles are for kids anyway.
 
 

 

[somunny]

Consoles are for kids anyway.
 

So are TRIX, but I love the fruity flavor.

What a ridiculous statement.  But if feel the need to to justify the maturity of your hobby, fire away.

[Grasshopper]

The short answer is yes, at least in the short term.

It's not really surprising. You'd have to be mad to buy a PS3 at its current price. The 360 is significantly cheaper but it's still hard to justify buying one at the moment.

I'm pretty sure that both M$ and Sony will reduce the prices of their respective consoles by whatever it takes to compete with Nintendo, even if that means selling them at a loss, because their business models depend upon achieving a big market share.

Neither the 360 or PS3 has a must have game at this point. So the smart thing to do is wait. In six months to a year the games will be better and the prices more reasonable.

[AlanS17]

Neither the 360 or PS3 has a must have game at this point. So the smart thing to do is wait. In six months to a year the games will be better and the prices more reasonable.

That's a sad statement for the 360 if it's true when you consider that it's been out for a year now.

I've found PS3's easier to come by, but that might be coincidence. I've been to two places that had them available right off the shelf, but I talked with the stores and they assured me that they're selling quickly. They say I just show up at the right moment. Sure enough, people come up behind me and buy them. (This was at Fry's and GameStop.)

It doesn't matter either way here, though. By the time we finish opening gifts at Christmas, we'll have a PS3, a Wii, and two 360's.

[Grasshopper]

I think the main problem is that the last generation of consoles simply finished too quickly.

There is still plenty of life left in the PS2 and Xbox because games developers haven't yet found ways of utilising all the extra processing power available on the 360/PS3. OK the 360's graphics look slightly better but the extra power hasn't improved gameplay. The same applies in the PC world as well. Hell there's still life in the Dreamcast and they haven't been made for five years!

That's why Nintendo's decision to focus their efforts on the controllers instead of graphics and processor power was such a smart move.

[SithMaster]

The dreamcast is a special case though.  Its easy for anyone to develop games for so it sees a lot of homebrew and even some commercial games.

That and it looks better than most games on the ps2.

If consoles were for kids id doubt games like GTA and Doom 3 would be made for them.  They are for everyone hence the E to M ratings.

Wii currently surpases the 360 and PS3 until Halo 3 comes out then the 360 will have a surge of sales like the xbox did when halo 2 came out.  And Grasshopper is right about the gameplay over graphics move.  I dont care how uber realistic the game gets if i cant stand playing it.  Though the wii isnt exactly something youd be able to play for long hours unless you have madd dexterity.

[AlanS17]

People can't go completely writing the PS3 off. If it weren't for the price tag, it would likely be beating out both the Wii and the 360. As the price drops, it'll become more popular. Over the long run, you can expect to see it gain popularity. In the end, it has the potential to still come out the winner. That Blue-Ray drive is going to either be a blessing or a curse.

[ChadTower]

If the PS3 weren't electronic it may be a cow too.

[AlanS17]

If the PS3 weren't electronic it may be a cow too.

[lloydcom]

I think the big problem lies with the saturation of the Sony product in the market place.  Not only is the PS2 still doing well (pricewise) but also the PSP.  Very well in fact in the UK.

I think the PS3 will come into its own next year - when a good catalogue of games are behind it, and sales are gauranteed.

The UK market is too crowded at the moment, with Wii, Sony and Microsoft still jockeying for position.  It has always been the case for many years the the UK market is the most active when it comes to video games, and you would think it was Japan!

No the PS3 will dominate next year and the PSP will be a good purchase as it will work hand in hand.

If only Sony wouldn't introduce new media types.  The UMD is bad enough!

[Samstag]

I wouldn't pay $250 for a PS3 right now, and I don't have anything against it.  That's just too much for a system with one good game and the ability to play $45 movies (if I also buy the extra HDMI cable).  I've spent at least $600 on my PSP and feel like it was all worth it.

I'll most likely buy a PS3 in a couple of years when the price is lower, the game library is better, and the DVD format war is over.  But I want a Wii now!

[AlanS17]

There really seems to be a general discontent for the new PS3, and it's primarily over the price. I think the big price increase comes from that Blu-Ray drive.

I tend to follow game studios rather than consoles, but I've really come to like Sony because of a couple of studios they have close relationships with. It'll be a sad day if Sony tanks, but the game devs will just jump to another console (that I'll likely already have). They won't just decide to stop making games because their console-of-choice went down the tubes.

Until things settle down, I won't be buying any hi-def DVD players (or game consoles masquerading as such). Maybe by the time I'm ready to buy a hi-def player, there will be some sort of standard (or at least a dual-drive player).

I've got my bases covered for the meantime with an XBox 360 and a Wii.

I think the Wii could really put a dent in the PS3, but it'll be the XBox 360 that reaps the rewards.

[Samstag]

I tend to follow game studios rather than consoles, but I've really come to like Sony because of a couple of studios they have close relationships with.

I never gave the PS2 or the PSP a serious thought until buying both for GTA games.  If GTA4 is cross-platform from the start, there goes Sony's best chance of hooking me.

[AlanS17]

I never gave the PS2 or the PSP a serious thought until buying both for GTA games.  If GTA4 is cross-platform from the start, there goes Sony's best chance of hooking me.

I'm a big Square-Enix (formerly Squaresoft) fan. They've got FFXI for the XBox 360, but the overwhelming majority of their work is on Playstation and Nintendo platforms. I'm already looking forward to the new Dragon Quest game for the Wii.

With all the exclusive licensing issues that Sony has been having, maybe Square will warm up to the XBox 360. I don't think they have a very good relationship right now, though.

I do like Xenosaga, though. Hopefully the third installment will be cross-platform.

[shmokes]

The UK market is too crowded at the moment, with Wii, Sony and Microsoft still jockeying for position.  It has always been the case for many years the the UK market is the most active when it comes to video games, and you would think it was Japan!

Are you on cold medicine?  What is this supposed to even mean?

[boykster]

The UK market is too crowded at the moment, with Wii, Sony and Microsoft still jockeying for position.  It has always been the case for many years the the UK market is the most active when it comes to video games, and you would think it was Japan!

Are you on cold medicine?  What is this supposed to even mean?

He's loopy from using his highlighter on his own personal copy of the DMCA 

[markrvp]

Neither the 360 or PS3 has a must have game at this point. So the smart thing to do is wait. In six months to a year the games will be better and the prices more reasonable.

I have to disagree.  GEARS OF WAR for the XBOX 360 is hands down the best looking game out for consoles and the gameplay (both campaign and multiplayer) is superb.  I have played it online every night since its release on November 7.  My friends who work for retailers that sell 360s have all told me that 360 sales have gone up with people buying both a 360 and Gears of War.

However, 360 sales will still be average until the release of Halo 3.  That should be when all the current XBOX owners who are Halo fans finally bite the bullet and upgrade consoles.

Bioshock (released in April) should also be a boon for the XBOX 360.  Microsoft is winning the "Exclusives" battle right now and Sony had better hope it hasn't lost all its support from developers.


The absolute killer for the PS3 right now is that it only has one good (not great) exclusive game.  I have bought a PS3 and Resistance: Fall of Man for Christmas, but I haven't played it yet.  I was pretty disappointed that there aren't any other exclusive games available. 

[shmokes]

I'm kind of amazed that nobody launched with any killer 1st party games.  1st parties have longer than anyone else to work with the console during development.  They have the most access to information about the console.  Generally speaking Nintendo comes through in spades (Super Mario Bros., Super Mario World, Super Mario 64), but this time the only reason they even have a killer app is because they cannibalized it from the Gamecube.  The best they did in-house from the ground up is ExciteTruck, which isn't even very good.

All three of the companies dropped the ball on the launch lineup, IMO.  All three relied exclusively on third parties to provide a killer app, and Sony's actually the only one who was lucky enough to have a 3rd party come through for them with Resistance.

[ChadTower]

The killer "app" for the Wii is the controller.

[ClubNinja]

I'm kind of amazed that nobody launched with any killer 1st party games.  1st parties have longer than anyone else to work with the console during development.  They have the most access to information about the console.  Generally speaking Nintendo comes through in spades (Super Mario Bros., Super Mario World, Super Mario 64), but this time the only reason they even have a killer app is because they cannibalized it from the Gamecube.  The best they did in-house from the ground up is ExciteTruck, which isn't even very good.

All three of the companies dropped the ball on the launch lineup, IMO.  All three relied exclusively on third parties to provide a killer app, and Sony's actually the only one who was lucky enough to have a 3rd party come through for them with Resistance.

You can't say that there are no killer aps at launch, then say that the Wii has one, even if it was "cannibalized... from the Gamecube".  It's still a Wii launch title, a Nintendo exclusive, and selling like crazy.  There's some statistic out that 75% of Wii owners also bought Zelda.  Sounds like killer ap material to me. 

I can agree that the PS3 and 360 didn't have stellar launches, but I don't understand the beating the Wii launch is getting.  Zelda, Super Monkey Ball, Excitetruck (despite your opinion on it above), Rayman, Trauma Center, and even the Wii Sports pack-in are all excellent games, getting top reviews, and creating the important word-of-mouth buzz that Microsoft and Sony could only dream of. 

Regarding the subject of Wii VS PS3, I don't think the comparison is actually valid.  The two machines are in entirely different classes.  The real question is 360 VS PS3 in the "high-end" gaming class.  With the availibility issues, the price-point, and the lack of must-play games for the PS3, I see the 360 soaking up the benefits.  Buyers who were initially looking into the PS3 are going to buy 360s instead.  I heard it said numerous times, and agree entirely, that the Wii + 360 combination pretty much covers everything one could want from the new console generation.  The Wii is going to do just fine on its own and the PS3 is going to suffer - not for that, but for the increased and renewed interest in the 360.

[somunny]

Shmokes:  Not to be a d!ck but...

I mean that the PS3 is launching with a killer app, which is nice.  The Xbox 360 did not, which kinda sucked.  And I mean that the Xbox 360 naturally has more killer titles than the PS3 right now seeing as it's been out for a year now.  I suppose I also mean that Gears of War looks as good, probably better than Resistance: Fall of Man, but Gears of War is a second gen game and no game that launched with the 360 looked (or played) as good as Resistance.

So, basically take it for what it's worth.  PS3 launches with a killer app.  That's nice, and it's something the 360 didn't do.  The 360, is cheaper, though, and has more killer apps right now because it's been out longer.  I think they PS3 is probably more powerful than 360, but in the same way that the Xbox was more powerful than the PS2.  It's a bit more powerful, but both systems are capable of playing all the same games.  So it mainly comes down to developer support, and Sony reducing their retarded price.

From this thread:

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=60136.msg595163

[shmokes]

The killer app can't be the controller, for the obvious reason that the controller is not an app, and without an app the controller is just a piece of plastic that is no more fun to wave around than a spatula.

And it does matter that Zelda is cannibalized.  It's not even an exclusive, since the same game, with the exact same visuals is available on another system -- a five year old system, to be exact.  Zelda for the Wii is a port and nothing more.  It's a Wiimake, just like Cars and Spongebob.

I know that Zelda is a killer app in the general sense, since it's a great game.  My point is that it's not exclusive and it's not even a system seller.  You don't buy a Wii so you can play Zelda.  You buy a Wii because of the controller.  It's selling at a 75% rate, or whatever, because people who are buying Wii's anyway would rather play the game on the Wii than the Gamecube.  But if they weren't already buying a Wii they would just pick up the same exact game for the Gamecube.  It would be exactly the same as if Sony had released God of War II (due in February) for both the PS3 and the PS2, with exactly the same textures and resolution and everything, but with new features that take advantage of their new controller and called it their killer PS3 app.  Zelda is a Gamecube game.  It was developed from the ground up for the Gamecube.  No matter how you look at it you can't get around the fact that the only games Nintendo developed for Wii and had available at launch are Wii Sports and ExciteTruck.  It is sad that its Killer App is a port, and not even a port from a next-gen system.

What I'm faulting Nintendo for is not developing a single game from the ground up that really showcases their new system.  The Wii is about twice as powerful as a Gamecube, yet Zelda: Twilight Princess can run flawlessly on the Gamecube.  Same resolution.  Same framerate.  Same Dolby ProLogic 2.0 sound effects.  Same game.  The Wii is capable of more than that. 

[shmokes]

Shmokes:  Not to be a d!ck but...

It's fine.  You just didn't read my post correctly.  I didn't say that Sony didn't launch without a killer app.  I specifically said that of the three companies, all of them relied on third parties for killer apps instead of delivering them from in-house (even though the in-house developers have all the advantages on their side), and that "Sony's actually the only one who was lucky enough to have a 3rd party come through for them with Resistance."

My point is that the first party studios for every company failed to deliver a killer app.  Nintendo squeeks by with a port and Sony squeeks by because a 3rd party developer put together something great for them (Resistance).  And MS simply did not launch with a killer app.

[ChadTower]

The killer app can't be the controller, for the obvious reason that the controller is not an app, and without an app the controller is just a piece of plastic that is no more fun to wave around than a spatula.

A general definition of "killer app" an application program that intentionally or unintentionally gets you to make the decision to buy the system the application runs on.

The word of mouth that is driving the Wii and Nintendo's early success is all controller driven.  Whether or not it's an app unto itself I would say it's actually better than a single killer app.  The controllers affect every app and thus is more likely to be a deciding factor for people who would be convinced in that direction by a single game's existance on one or the other.

Maybe the better term is "killer innovation", but whatever you want to call it, thus far the Wii's controllers are the single biggest success of the three new consoles.

[ClubNinja]

You don't buy a Wii so you can play Zelda.

Not according to the people who were in line with me for it's launch.  20 available systems, 19 available Zeldas, and the 20th kid in line freaking out that he wasn't going to get a Zelda with his system.  He got it though, since I was the only one there not buying a Wii specifically to play Zelda.  19 out of 20 were.  And I don't think the lineup in my little town is an exception to the national trend.  

You're not entirely correct when you say "It's not even an exclusive, since the same game, with the exact same visuals is available on another system -- a five year old system, to be exact."  You can argue that Zelda's a "wiimake" like Cars (and many others), but the difference it has is that those others were released prior to or at the same time as the Wii version.  Right now, the only way to play Zelda is to own a Wii.  It is NOT available on another system - not right now.  Sure, it may be available for the GameCube in a few months, but people want to play it now.  Having the ability to play Zelda right now is justifying the purchase of a completely new piece of hardware at launch for numerous buyers.  

By definition, a killer app is a game that can single-handedly justify the purchase of a new piece of hardware.  What makes this even more interesting is that I'm sure the majority of the buying-a-Wii-for-Zelda crowd already owns a GameCube.  If Zelda wasn't such a big deal, then they'd just wait.  It is a big deal and it's driving people out to buy new hardware for it.  If a game that inspires buyers to go out and buy an entirely new system when the hardware they already own will be able to play it a few months later isn't a "killer app", then I don't know what it is.  

And, although wikipedia is hardly the place to gather facts, I find it interesting that if you look up "killer app" there, you'll see Zelda for the Wii listed as an example.

[shmokes]

The N64 had an equally innovative controller, as did the NES.  Yet we got Super Mario Bros. for NES and Mario 64 and Waverace for N64 to show those controllers off.  Super Nintendo's controller was possibly not as innovative as those other two, introducing only a couple more face buttons and the shoulder buttons, but we got killer apps to take advantage of that controller too with Super Mario World and PilotWings (and third parties came through big time here too with games like Final Fantasy II). 

I agree that the Wii controller is a phenomenal innovation, and is reason enough to buy the system.  But LIVE for Xbox is also a pretty great innovation, but much like the Wii Remote, is only as good as the games you can play on it.

Let me clarify.  There are many good reasons to buy a Wii.  Wii Remote (obvious).  Nintendo game studios.  Price (compared to the competition -- though by any other measurement it's a mediocre price at best). 

Zelda is not a good reason to buy a Wii.  Zelda is available, in its entirety, on another system that costs 1/3 as much, and is five years old so you likely already own one.  You buy the system for the remote, not for the game.  Hence, Zelda's not the Wii's killer app.


ClubNinja posted while I was writing.

ClubNinja, Nintendo may be artificially creating the circumstances of a killer app, by vonluntarily withholding the Gamecube version, but that doesn't turn it into a Wii game.  People are buying the Wii for the remote.  They want Zelda with it because Zelda is the best game available for the system.  Those same people would be in line buying those same Wiis even if Zelda wasn't available.  And Zelda is still a game developed from the ground up for the Gamecube.  It's a Gamecube game, regardless of whether Nintendo delayed its release for the sole purpose of making up for their inability to get Super Mario Galaxy or Metroid ready in time for the launch.

And you're right.  Wikipedia is not the place to gather facts.  Wikipedia is updated by users, so you could have been the person to list it as a killer app for all I know.   

[ChadTower]

Wikipedia is updated by users, so you could have been the person to list it as a killer app for all I know.   

 

[shmokes]

You know, the fact that Zelda, a game developed for and soon available on the Gamecube is the Wii's supposed killer app is exactly what I'm talking about. 

Ask yourself why the Wii's killer app is a Gamecube game and then ask yourself if there is any other possible answer besides Nintendo didn't have any Wii games ready for the launch besides ExciteTruck and Wii Sports, neither of which are good enough to be considered killer apps. 

Exactly what I've been saying from the beginning.

[ClubNinja]

People are buying the Wii for the remote.  They want Zelda with it because Zelda is the best game available for the system.  Those same people would be in line buying those same Wiis even if Zelda wasn't available.

But I just told you that 19 out of 20 people in my launch line were buying the Wii for Zelda.  The kid in front of me in line waited for 17 hours for a Wii.  I asked him what he was looking forward to: "Zelda".  I asked him what else: "Nothing really, just Zelda."  I bet Wii Sports will be fun though: "I don't really like sports.  I'm just going to be playing Zelda."  

People are buying Wiis to play Zelda.  You're completely wrong.  It doesn't matter if the game quality (technically) is on par with GameCube, Super Nintendo, or the Atari 2600.  It was released for the Wii, therefore it is a Wii game.  And in the real world where consumers aren't spending their time crying that it's only as good as a GameCube game, it was selling machines before they were even available.

[ChadTower]

Maybe, just maybe, innovation is doing what innovation tends to do.  It is defying your established notions of how to succeed at launch and defying your established terminology.

People were initially clamoring for PS3s and the Wii was an "also out there now".  Now, after word of mouth, people are clamoring for Wiis and some PS3s are actually staying on shelves for a little while.

The intensity of demand has shifted to the Wii.

Isn't that compelling?

[ClubNinja]

People were initially clamoring for PS3s and the Wii was an "also out there now".  Now, after word of mouth, people are clamoring for Wiis and some PS3s are actually staying on shelves for a little while.

Absolutely true, and a good point to clarify my arguement.  At launch, most (not all) buyers wanted to play Zelda.  Immediately.  So they bought a Wii.  Zelda sold most Wiis at launch, which is why I believe it qualifies as a "killer app".  Now, as Chad has described, word of mouth on how much fun the system is to play has sparked a second wave of interest that totally overshadows anything the PS3 has to offer.  While I may insist that Zelda is a killer app in the traditional sense, the innovative and enjoyable gameplay of the Wii in general is certainly the second "killer app" in a more abstract sense of the term. 

[AtomSmasher]

I have to disagree.  GEARS OF WAR for the XBOX 360 is hands down the best looking game out for consoles and the gameplay (both campaign and multiplayer) is superb.  I have played it online every night since its release on November 7.  My friends who work for retailers that sell 360s have all told me that 360 sales have gone up with people buying both a 360 and Gears of War.

However, 360 sales will still be average until the release of Halo 3.  That should be when all the current XBOX owners who are Halo fans finally bite the bullet and upgrade consoles.

Bioshock (released in April) should also be a boon for the XBOX 360.  Microsoft is winning the "Exclusives" battle right now and Sony had better hope it hasn't lost all its support from developers.


The absolute killer for the PS3 right now is that it only has one good (not great) exclusive game.  I have bought a PS3 and Resistance: Fall of Man for Christmas, but I haven't played it yet.  I was pretty disappointed that there aren't any other exclusive games available. 

I realize you're probably only talking about consoles, but I just thought I'd mention that Bioshock is also coming out for the PC in April and its rumored that Gears of War will be released for the PC sometime next year.

[shmokes]

Absolutely true, and a good point to clarify my arguement. 

Way to appropriate Chad's support, but he didn't say that the first wave belonged to Zelda and the second wave of demand comes from the hardware.

Chad,  you're reading more into what I'm saying than is there.  I'm not talking about whether Nintendo's strategy will be successful.  I have no doubt at this point that Nintendo is sitting on a gold mine thanks to their innovative controller (not to mention that the hardware is already profitable so they don't even have to make up for enormous losses like their competitors). 

I'm saying that it's disappointing that none of their first party studios were able to have any Wii killer apps ready.  They took a Gamecube title, tacked on Wii controls and that became the killer app stand-in to make up for the fact that the rest of the software was still incomplete as of launch time.  It's a great game, but it's not nearly as good as it would have been had it been developed for the Wii hardware to begin with, because the Wii hardware is considerably better than Gamecube hardware.  In fact, even the control scheme would probably be much more fleshed out if it was developed from the ground up for the Wii rather than just wrapping a game developed for the Gamecube controller around the Wii remote.  All the motions you make in the game represent nothing more than a button press.  A game developed from the ground up would likely have given us one to one sword controls and the like.  But who knows?

WTF?  I'm not saying Zelda is a bad game.  I'm saying that Nintendo has studios creating Wii software and the only people who came through were the Zelda group, because their game was already finished for Gamecube and all they had to do was retool the controls so they'd have a version compatible with the Wii remote.  I don't care how you define Zelda.  It can be a killer app if you want.  You can even say that for that reason the Wii did, in fact, launch with a killer app (though I still think you're full of ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- about Zelda being the primary reason anybody is buying the Wii -- Chad's spot on:  it's the controller).  It doesn't take away from the fact that Nintendo did not finish a single killer app for the Wii in time for launch.  They managed to finish Wii Sports, ExciteTruck, and they managed to port a Gamecube title.

[versapak]

Zelda is not a good reason to buy a Wii.  Zelda is available, in its entirety, on another system that costs 1/3 as much, and is five years old so you likely already own one.  You buy the system for the remote, not for the game.  Hence, Zelda's not the Wii's killer app.

Well...

You were NOT able to buy Zelda:TP for any other system but Wii.

Going buy your logic... Halo was not a killer app for Xbox, because it also went to the PC. The same for Halo 2.

Was MGS 2 not a killer app for PS2? I personally played it on Xbox.


Zelda: TP is definitely a killer app on the Wii.

Sure, the time gap in those examples I listed is far off from the gap between GC & Wii Zeldas, but still...

It was a timed exclusive, and it does have some exclusive features that make it THE one to own (I couldn't imagine playing it without the Wii controller, and I certainly couldn't imagine playing it in the crappy 4:3 aspect ratio that the gamecube version is limited to(unless of course I still had a 4:3 tv as my gaming tv, but I don't so...)).

Also, as some have said, the controller is the killer app of the Wii. No, it isn't an app, but most of the "apps" that it is used for are enhanced by it, and it IS the selling point of the Wii, which is what would make a killer app killer in the first place.

With the refreshing new take on controls that the Wii offers, and its collection of above average titles that make use of that controller, the Wii didn't need to have some heavy hitting juggernaut (though I stand by my statement of Zelda:TP being that).



BTW...

If you ask my kids, the Wii does have a killer app, and that is the Wii Sports title that came with the Wii.


I do understand what you are saying about a title that pushes what the system is truly capable of, but that rarely happens at launch anymore for any system. Those kinds of titles take millions, and years, so with a launch these days, it is great just, at the very least, to have some titles that are fun, and the Wii most definitely provided that.

[ChadTower]

Or, maybe, they made a Wii game and are making a version available for the GC at a later date.

Who says a killer app has to be on the bleeding edge of technology to be a killer app?  Where is that in the general definition?  It has to sell systems, that's it, no more and no less.  And Zelda is absolutely selling systems.

Hell, it's possible that the Wii's killer app is Wii Sports.  That's the one everyone is looking at and saying "dude, you gotta play this".

[ClubNinja]

I don't care how you define Zelda.  It can be a killer app if you want.

It is, then. 

[ChadTower]

So, now the Wii has two killer apps.  Awesome!  That explains everything.

[AtomSmasher]

I'm saying that it's disappointing that none of their first party studios were able to have any Wii killer apps ready.  They took a Gamecube title, tacked on Wii controls and that became the killer app stand-in to make up for the fact that the rest of the software was still incomplete as of launch time.  It's a great game, but it's not nearly as good as it would have been had it been developed for the Wii hardware to begin with, because the Wii hardware is considerably better than Gamecube hardware.  In fact, even the control scheme would probably be much more fleshed out if it was developed from the ground up for the Wii rather than just wrapping a game developed for the Gamecube controller around the Wii remote.  All the motions you make in the game represent nothing more than a button press.  A game developed from the ground up would likely have given us one to one sword controls and the like.  But who knows?

It was the same situation when the DS first came out, the first wave of games for it were ports and minigames.  The problem with unique controls is it takes developers a little while to figure out the best way to use them.  I agree that the Wii launch lineup is not as good as the SNES or N64, but it is better then the launch lineup for the PS3 and the 360.

[ChadTower]

Plus, during the N64 hardware dev cycle, they had basically an unlimited amount of time.  No Microsoft, Sega was barely a factor, and Sony was even farther from a new console than they were.  That is not the case this time.

[lloydcom]

I always find it amazing when a console comes out, that there is one good game and very substandard additional ones at launch.  The old comment about hardware is lightyears ahead of software is very true.  I remember when the 386 came out and people were still writing software for the 286.  How Windows transitioned.

It takes a long while to get used to a particular instruction set, capabilities of memory usage, etc.  Look how the Commodore 64 exploited the capability of programmers back in the middle 80's.  Gameplay and graphics were the norm.  Now it is just cinema.  No gameplay.  You can spend hours on paradroid.

I say we have not seen the capabilities of either Xbox 360 or PS3 to come out and dazzle.  Its is a shame that consoles have a shelf life, before their coders exploit their capabilities.  The Dreamcast is a prime example.  Half Life 2 is another, running on Directx 8 and still looking good.  Heck looking better.

I'm also surprised how console makers shun PC users.  Keyboard and Mouse is a winning yet classic combination.  Why is it that consoles do not have this function?  I cannot play a FPS on a joypad, its uncormfortable and unweildy.  I'm sure that if this ability to use keyboard and mouse was available for the 360 or PS3/2 many of us would have ditched our PCs by now.

For the time being, either its wii Xbox or Sony, time will tell and it is time the coders need to bring an excellent game to life.

[AlanS17]

Zelda is not a good reason to buy a Wii.  Zelda is available, in its entirety, on another system that costs 1/3 as much, and is five years old so you likely already own one.  You buy the system for the remote, not for the game.  Hence, Zelda's not the Wii's killer app.

I had a million opportunities to buy a Game Cube over the past several years, but never did it - even when the price came down. When I saw the new controller for the Wii, I thought, "Wow, that's lame. That'll never fly."

Then I saw the E3 demo of Zelda for the Wii and decided I needed to have that system because I want to play that game the way it's played on a Wii. If that same game were released for the Game Cube, I wouldn't have bought it.

You can argue all day that it's the same game, but it's not. The Game Cube version would never have made me go buy a Game Cube, but the Wii version made me decide I wanted a Wii.

Maybe Zelda isn't YOUR killer app, but it's definitely mine beyond a shadow of a doubt.

[SithMaster]

On the keyboard and mouse for console idea, it would never fly.  mainly because, i think, console makers want to offer something simple and intuitive that it takes very little effort to play a game.  otherwise people would just play pc games.  with a console its just pop a disc in and use the gamepad.  also if they used a keyboard and mouse it would cut sales for controllers since anyone could use a pc compatible keyboard.

its a good idea, look at typing of the dead for dreamcast and other games that used it for that system.

@killerapp- what about call of duty 3 on the wii?  i only want it for the wii becuase of the remote.

[Zero_Hour]

I hear what you are saying SithMaster, but after playing FPS on PC's for 10+ years, I find trying to play one with a gamepad anything but simple or intuitive. I just wish they would give me the option of plugging in a KB & Mouse as an option. I can customize my button layouts on almost any console game made available, why not just let me map the controls to other compatible perhiperals? With USB support the norm on the new consoles, maybe developers will see the light and go that one extra step. And with development budgets what they are these days, I don't want anybody trying to tell me it's a cost issue. 

I don't think it would really impact profits on additional controllers, as I'm not looking to replace the gamepad for every single game I play on a console, I just want to expand my options where it most makes sense.

[AlanS17]

Frankly, I'm rather surprised that they didn't start implementing USB input devices for console FPS's 5 years ago.

Back on topic... PS3 costs too much. Wii is the shiznit. Zelda is a killer app.

[shmokes]

Y'all are so hung up on whether or not Zelda is a killer app. that you're completely missing my point.  I don't care if it's a killer app.  I already said it can be a killer app. if you want it to be.  I'm sure that I was a bit hasty in suggesting that nobody was buying the system for Zelda.  I'm sure I'm wrong about that (it ain't anything like 19 out of 20, but whatever . . . Zelda's got a lot of hardcore fans . . . ). 

My point is simply that the first party studios of all three companies dropped the ball, which is strange considering the advantage they have over 3rd parties when it comes to launch games, with early access to dev kits, etc.  This applies to Nintendo regardless of whether Zelda is a killer app, because while they ported a great game to the console, their first party studios still failed to complete any kick-ass games to show off what the Wii is capable of, and no, Zelda does not accomplish this -- not in graphics nor in control. 

Zelda: Twilight Princess is better than any other launch title.  But Zelda: Twilight Princess for the Gamecube will be better than any other Wii launch game as well.  It is the same game.  It is a kick-ass game, and Nintendo has turned it into a temporary exclusive by arbitrarily holding back the long-completed Gamecube version, which certainly gives impatient Zelda fans one more good reason to pick up the Wii.  And I even suspect that some aspects of control on the Wii version (bow & arrow, hookshot, fishing, etc.) are superior to the GC version (while certain aspects are possibly worse -- swinging the sword and camera control, for example).  I retract what I said about Zelda not selling systems, but it simply is not the killer app we are used to from a Nintendo console launch.  To put it simply, it is not Super Mario Galaxy, a game that was built from the ground up around the Wii hardware, and built from the ground up to take advantage of the Wii remote, rather than simply taking a game developed for a gamepad and mapping gestures to gamepad button presses.  And it is a game that was originally planned for, and should have been ready for the launch.

But whatever, I guess . . . I seriously don't think we disagree on any of the facts.  We just interpret them differently, I guess.  We all probably feel exactly the same about the quality of Twilight Princess -- it's great*.  We all probably agree that Nintendo failed to ready Metroid, Mario Galaxy, Warioware, Battalion Wars, Mario Strikers, Cooking Mama, Mario Party, or Smash Bro. in time for launch.  Every one of these titles is being developed from the ground up for the Wii, and every one of them missed the launch.  Any one of them could be the potential killer app (aside from Strikers, I suppose) that really shows off the Wii.  Zelda is a killer app, but only for the reasons it will be a killer app on the Gamecube.  It's just a high quality game, but it is not THE game to make you fall in love with the Wii hardware.  If anything, that chore probably falls to Wii Sports or a 3rd Party game, and none of those, IMO, really do the hardware justice.



*I've never actually played Twilight Princess so I suppose I could end up disappointed with it, though I REALLY doubt that will happen.

[shmokes]

http://gear.ign.com/articles/558/558944p1.html
http://www.xcm.cc/xcm_xfps_360.htm

First link is to keyboard/mouse support for PS2 and Xbox.  Second link is to similar support for Xbox 360.  FWIW reviews seemed to be pretty positive for the first device.  I wasn't even aware of the Xbox 360 device until a few minutes ago.

To be honest my guess is that a keyboard and mouse just don't work that well on the sofa, which is where 99% of people play consoles.  Everybody, including console manufacturers know that it's a superior control scheme, but it's not really practical for the vast majority of console gamers cos they don't play at a desk.  One has to wonder if they actively want to avoid the use of keyboard and mouse at least in multiplayer games because it would create such an advantage for the few people who have the hardware.  I have no opinion one way or the other on that . . . just throwing it out there.

[AtomSmasher]

To be honest my guess is that a keyboard and mouse just don't work that well on the sofa, which is where 99% of people play consoles.  Everybody, including console manufacturers know that it's a superior control scheme, but it's not really practical for the vast majority of console gamers cos they don't play at a desk.  One has to wonder if they actively want to avoid the use of keyboard and mouse at least in multiplayer games because it would create such an advantage for the few people who have the hardware.  I have no opinion one way or the other on that . . . just throwing it out there.

Agreed.  One great keyboard idea for a couch keyboard/mouse solution is the lapboard from phantom entertainment (at least something good came from their "amazing" console they could never finish)

http://www.phantom.net/content/products/index.html

[shmokes]

I can't believe the thing ever came out.  Dunno how they expected to ever sell a console that had a $130 controller, but I have to admit that it looks like a nice setup for people who can afford it, though if it's just FPS controls you want I think the Wii controller offers a superior solution at a fraction of the price. 

[ClubNinja]

We all probably agree that Nintendo failed to ready Metroid, Mario Galaxy, Warioware, Battalion Wars, Mario Strikers, Cooking Mama, Mario Party, or Smash Bro. in time for launch.  Every one of these titles is being developed from the ground up for the Wii, and every one of them missed the launch.  Any one of them could be the potential killer app... If anything, that chore probably falls to Wii Sports or a 3rd Party game, and none of those, IMO, really do the hardware justice.

Unlike early PS3 adopters, Wii owners are - in general - very content playing the games that were available for launch.  With the PS3, people are saying "well, Resistance is OK, but that's about it."  With the Wii, people are excited, spreading interest through word of mouth, and consequently, Wii consoles are starting to become harder to find in stores than PS3s.  Nintendo has a solid and happy installed Wii user base already, and all the best games (as you've listed them above) are still to come.   PS3 owners are still waiting.  Arguably, most 360 owners were waiting long after launch to feel good about their purchase.  Sounds like a best-case scenario for Nintendo - not the ball-dropping you make it out to be.  A successful launch only requires a ton of sales and happy buyers to go with them, not the very best of the lineup dropped all at once.

[ChadTower]

Plus, if you use the actual retail industry criteria, both consoles have a 100% sales rate.  Every unit sells out regardless.

[shmokes]

There's so much buzz around a consoles release that early sales data are not especially indicative of the quality of the console or the lineup.  Nobody argues that the Xbox 360 lineup lacked a single killer app, and the PS3 lineup is pretty clearly mediocre overall.  But 360 was impossible to find until after March 2006, and PS3 will probably follow suit.  It's not that the games are just that irresistible.  It's that it's the next-gen console and people just want it.

Remember that Dreamcast had the most successful launch in console history and look what happened to it.  Actually they had the great games to back it up too.  Who the hell knows what happened to the Dreamcast?

[versapak]

There's so much buzz around a consoles release that early sales data are not especially indicative of the quality of the console or the lineup.  Nobody argues that the Xbox 360 lineup lacked a single killer app, and the PS3 lineup is pretty clearly mediocre overall.  But 360 was impossible to find until after March 2006, and PS3 will probably follow suit.  It's not that the games are just that irresistible.  It's that it's the next-gen console and people just want it.

Remember that Dreamcast had the most successful launch in console history and look what happened to it.  Actually they had the great games to back it up too.  Who the hell knows what happened to the Dreamcast?

Never mind all the praise that just about everyone who owns one is giving it.


I have seen very few people who actually own a Wii, going on about how they didn't release any quality games.

Of course we want the next Metroid and the next Mario, but we are not starved for them. The games that did launch have been more than adequate in keeping me satisfied with my purchase.

We all know that you don't consider Zelda:TP a killer Wii title, but I for one do. It did launch with the Wii, and there was no other system out there that had it. Regardless of the fact that it was eventually launching for the GC as well, or the fact that they delayed that GC launch just to have something big on the Wii... So what? It is a great game. It makes EXCELLENT use of the Wii controller. It is not a lil 6 hour title. It is one of the best entries into the Zelda franchise, and it is keeping most people busy with it for quite some time.

On top of Zelda, Wii Sports & Super Monkey Ball have been regular entertainment in my house since we got them on launch day (Rayman would probably be as well, but Nintendo was kind enough to sell the Nunchuck seperately from the Wiimote, and just as kind to ensure they had about 1/8th of the quantity available). They are extremely fun, and I consider those to be pretty killer titles as well.

Those amazing "built from the ground up for Wii" games will come eventually, but even without Super Mario Galaxy and Metroid, Nintendo's launch was certainly nothing short of great.

I'd reckon that the vast majority of those that actually own one would agree.

[shmokes]

Funny . . . I just went back and read the comment that started all this.  I even called Zelda a killer app in that post.  And I still stand by everything in it.

"Generally speaking Nintendo comes through in spades (Super Mario Bros., Super Mario World, Super Mario 64), but this time the only reason they even have a killer app is because they cannibalized it from the Gamecube.  The best they did in-house from the ground up is ExciteTruck, which isn't even very good."

I think the above quote is just clearly a fact.  It might not bother you, but I don't know how you can argue against its accuracy.  And I haven't been saying any more or less than this ever since.

[versapak]

Funny . . . I just went back and read the comment that started all this.  I even called Zelda a killer app in that post.  And I still stand by everything in it.

"Generally speaking Nintendo comes through in spades (Super Mario Bros., Super Mario World, Super Mario 64), but this time the only reason they even have a killer app is because they cannibalized it from the Gamecube.  The best they did in-house from the ground up is ExciteTruck, which isn't even very good."

I think the above quote is just clearly a fact.  It might not bother you, but I don't know how you can argue against its accuracy.  And I haven't been saying any more or less than this ever since.

Fair enough.


It doesn't bother me. Though I find Wii Sports to be better than Excite Truck.

[ClubNinja]

"Generally speaking Nintendo comes through in spades (Super Mario Bros., Super Mario World, Super Mario 64), but this time the only reason they even have a killer app is because they cannibalized it from the Gamecube.  The best they did in-house from the ground up is ExciteTruck, which isn't even very good."

I think the above quote is just clearly a fact.

Not entirely.  That last bit is completely opinion.  And I think ExciteTruck is fantastic.  I haven't seen so many people having good times at kiosks when ExciteTruck was available for play at EB/Gamestop in ages, either.   

[ChadTower]

The kid I saw try to run away with the controller was playing ExciteTruck.   

[shmokes]

ExciteTruck is the only game I've played on a couple of occasions.  At first I thought it was possibly the worst game ever made, but I'm pretty sure the batteries were just dying on the controller.  From what I've played I'd give say it's kinda fun, but that's it.  Nowhere near as good as a Burnout or Rallysport Challenge or San Francisco Rush.  Just mediocre.  Maybe I just haven't played it enough to realize how much depth there is hiding under the surface, but . . . I guess someday when I have a Wii I'll be able to answer that.

[sphetr2]

The best they did in-house from the ground up is ExciteTruck, which isn't even very good."

Err...correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't WarioWare a 1st party title?

[shmokes]

It is, and it looks like it might be an amazing title, but it didn't make the launch.  It is still unreleased.  Release date is Jan. 17.

[sphetr2]

Hmm...for some odd reason, I thought it was a launch title...perhaps I was thinking of Rayman.

[somunny]

You may have seen it lumped in with "launch window" games.  That's how they get ya!

[Pekay]

I do think Wii are winning, since its got more features than the PS3 I think. Because Nintendo managed to roll out the wiimote that you can do all sorts with including cracking precious objects . Seems more fun too.

[RTSDaddy2]

Have seen recently where Sony is now calling the Wii a "novelty" and that "real gamers" will come home to the PS3 soon enough.

 

(cough...) Excuse me....if  a "real gamer" goes home to the PS3 these days, how does he get his game to play? By waiting 10 - 15 minutes for new updates to download that MIGHT (if he's lucky) fix the problem?  At least my favorite new toy, this so-called "novelty" works!

[GameOver]

Had my kids at the mall to see Santa the other week & we stopped at Gamestop afterwards.  I asked if they had any Wii's or PS3's, they had one PS3 so I bought it, along with Resistance and NFS Carbon.  Neither are 5.1 and I DO have a 5.1 set-up  (must be one of Versapak's friends...).

Anyway, I haven't played a Wii yet but am anxious to.  I've only played the two games on PS3, which I think are both great.  I've been playing NFS on my 10' projection set-up and it's really intense, the graphics are pretty darn good for the first wave of games for this system.  NFS runs at 720p, so does Resistance.

I will say that I have had to download one update (annoying), and that changing the audio/video setting's between my 57" TV no surround vs. my projector room is annoying.  The PS network is nice since it's free, but so far there aren't many members but I expect that will change in time (after Christmas?  ).

I admit that it was expensive, but I'm very satisified with my purchase.  Game on!

[ChadTower]

I definitely agree that by now there should be profiles for config settings like that.  Such a small bit of software to put in that adds so much to usability.

[AlanS17]

Today marked the 5th time I've walked into a store when they had at least one PS3 in stock... and promptly proceeded to sell out while I was there. The local GameStop received 10 PS3's today, and they were sold out within 2 hours. I didn't even bother asking about Wii's.

[shmokes]

My brother was in Gamestop today and they had 6 PS3s on the shelf and nobody seemed interested in buying them.

Here's my theory about Wiis.  I think this next Shipment the stores are going to get is going to be HUGE.  Here's how I figure it.  The Target my brother works at got 42 Wiis on launch day.  Nintendo sold through some 600,000 units on launch day.  That number was less than the 1 million they said they would have, but Nintendo maintained that they would still sell 4 million by the end of the year.  Since launch Target had one more shipment of 30 units (71% as large as the first shipment).  If allotments were similar across the board Nintendo's next allotments to retailers would only have racked up about 426,000 more sales, or just over 1 million sold at this point, total.  So tell me, when exactly are they planning to sell 3 million more Wiis?  Between the 25th and the 31st?

I wonder if Nintendo isn't deliberately holding out to create a frenzy about the scarcity and they're going to suddenly come through just in time to save Christmas.

Of course I could be way off base and have nothing to base my theory on about allotments being consistent across the board, but . . .

[AlanS17]

My brother was in Gamestop today and they had 6 PS3s on the shelf and nobody seemed interested in buying them.

Not when they're $600 a pop. Parents love their kids, but a $600 Christmas is pushing it. A $250 Christmas gift is much easier to swallow. Even the grown-ups that want a PS3 for themselves will find it hard to afford one before Christmas when they're buying gifts for everyone else. Even still, they do continue to sell out.

[Zero_Hour]

So tell me, when exactly are they planning to sell 3 million more Wiis? 

Where, not when. Wasn't the 4 million number their global total?

[RTSDaddy2]

This weekend will be interesting to say the least - my Mom hates huge crowds so I've already informed her about the possible "2nd release" of both.

To our PS3 bretheren, I would say to you that yea, verily I have seen thy machine and  it does have the power of impressive graphics.  There can be no denying that.   Yet, when my mind wanders to good times, good friends, yea even much pizza and beer, and fun gameplay, let us turn to the book of Wii and find many interesting titles available now - and more on the way.

Plus there's that hefty $600 price tag and no packaged game.  That I have put another $250 in to this new experience is not at all unlikely...but for my money I have the Wii,  four games (in addition to Wii sports), an extra remote, nunchuck, Wii points (which lends to a couple more games) and component cables.

One additional word though - parents, yea verily, you are warned...use the parental code options if you don't want your Wii points up in smoke.  My 4 year old daughter purchased F-zero for us the other day, quite by accident.  I was saving those points for Super Mario World - but I told my wife, at least the little one downloaded a true classic!

[shmokes]

So tell me, when exactly are they planning to sell 3 million more Wiis? 

Where, not when. Wasn't the 4 million number their global total?

I just looked it up and you're right.  That's the global number, but they did say that the majority of that number is going to North America.

[SNAAKE]

wii of course..cheap AND fun http://youtube.com/watch?v=q93PvyKUa2I 

[shmokes]

I wonder if Nintendo isn't deliberately holding out to create a frenzy about the scarcity and they're going to suddenly come through just in time to save Christmas.

Well, so much for my theory.  The Target my brother works at just got their newest shipment (and the last they're expecting before Christmas) and it was only 18 units.

[RTSDaddy2]

wii of course..cheap AND fun

Amen.  I just picked up Super Swing Golf, adding it to TP, Madden 07, Rayman, and Wii Sports.  My dilema through Christmas won't be what to play, but WHICH to play!

(I promise guys, one day I will stop gushing over the Wii, but I cannot get over this thing's fun value.  It's been used every day since I bought it, and the last system that even came close to that for us was the N64.)

[ChadTower]

The only purpose of hype at retail is to sell more units.  When the units are selling instantly at a rate of 100% unit sales, creating hype doesn't get you anything.  I just can't see Nintendo holding back until the very last second.  Most people will have blown their Xmas wad by then.

[AtomSmasher]

Woot sold PS3's today, although they were gone in the first few minutes, their description was hilarious.  It was basically the Wii is so great that they are selling PS3's so that they can buy a bunch of Wii's.  Then when you click on the detailed image of the PS3 you get this, which I thought was great.

[Samstag]

Yeah that was one of the best Woots ever (whether you like the PS3 or not).

Gotta love them for ragging on the PS3 while at the same time offering to ship them next day (Saturday) delivery for $5.

[bishmasterb]

I've had a Wii since launch day, and I picked up a PS3 last Saturday.

The Wii is fun, although Zelda is graphically unimpressive, and Sports is a bit gimmicky. The only other game I have, Red Steel seems somewhat engaging, but I haven't played it a lot yet. My kids seem to love the system though (ages 7 and 13). I really wish Nintendo would have included HD support. I'm not questioning whether it was a good move for the market or not (time will tell) but I personally hate watching SD content on a big HD screen on a 2006 piece of hardware.

The only software I have for the PS3 is Ridge Racer 7 and a couple of Bluray movies. The Bluray playback is nothing short of amazing to me. Playing movies at 1080i at 73" is a very theater-like experience (unfortunately my setup isn't working at 1080p, which is apparently a fairly common problem that hopefully a firmware update will cure).

As a humrous side note, my wife also got me an original NES for Christmas with several games. My kids played SMB for hours and hours while the PS3 and Wii sat cold.   

[tommy]

No matter how you cut it Zelda is a great game as it always was, the difference now it that it is abit more player involved and IS more fun on the Wii.

While i can agree Nintendo could have done alot more with it's hardware, the fact remains they chose to go in a new direction then the old "just hold the controler in your hand" game play.

I can say that after playing games on the Wii i cannot ever see myself just holding a controler in the traditional way and having a good time playing a console game from this point on. So the graphics are last gen visuals, the controls more than make up for the lack of graphical power.

If game makers would be more involved and make games along side Nintendo they would not be producing crappy half-assed games.

It's in both parties best interest to combine forces. As of now any game not made by Nintendo is probably not worth spending hard earned cash on for the Wii.

[AlanS17]

I can say that after playing games on the Wii i cannot ever see myself just holding a controler in the traditional way and having a good time playing a console game from this point on. So the graphics are last gen visuals, the controls more than make up for the lack of graphical power.

I agree with you, but only up to a point. The control method is light years ahead anything else out there, but the lack of HD and surround sound really keep the Wii from being a hands-down winner for me. If those things didn't matter, so much emphasis wouldn't be put on them. I feel a little cheated when I have this truly awesome playability and truly crappy graphics (by today's standards).

It almost hurts my eyes to play Zelda, and that's the most impressive game out right now. Where a regular controller might feel inferior after holding a Wii controller, playing the Wii just feels downright blurry after just switching from one of the other next-gen consoles.

So the Wii controls don't "more than make up the lack of graphical power" for me. They merely compensate. I'm not even saying they had to ever match the PS3 or 360 in terms of horsepower. Even a half-hearted attempt would have been appreciated. In some ways, it really does feel like a budget alternative.

... and this is coming from a guy who has an XBox 360, a PS3, and a Wii all hooked up in his game room. So it's fair to say I have an educated opinion (even if it is still just an opinion).

When the next generation comes around again in 5 years or so, they will find a way to combine the best of the disparate systems that were just released. Those consoles will be something to behold. Who knows... Maybe by then they'll have built-in DVR's and other features people haven't even thought of yet.

[tommy]

I'm really not worried about Nintendo's lack of graphics this time around. After they get the new controler idea sorted out with the game devs... i have alot of confidence that the next gen Nintendo will be mind blowing.

[RTSDaddy2]

I dunno - I guess graphics have never been at my high end of expectations then. 

I understand all the tech differences to a point...but apparently it's just never been a huge issue for me.  I want a game I can play easily and have fun with (like Zelda, Rayman, etc) withouth worrying whether or not I see individual strands of hair blowing, etc.  I've spent more time with Twilight Princess trying to get through it that with any Zelda game before it (even Ocarina of Time) because I find the graphics amazing and, moreover, the storytelling totally immersing.  Again, though, as Alan put it, that's just my opinion.

To do a quick aside, have to tell you all - we finally had our Wii party over Christmas.  My whole family, excluding my Dad, was here.  My sister and brother and law had not seen the Wii yet, and so we pulled out Wii sports and popped it in - and within minutes they were hooked, throwing bowling balls and baseballs in no time!  My wife received a dance pad and Gamecube Karaoke game from "Santa" and we hooked that up - great on backwards compatability....we had a blast!

Ok, sorry - back to the thread as it was....

[AlanS17]

I guess if I didn't have a PS3 or a 360, I might think differently about the Wi''s graphics. The comparison is just too easy when they're both hooked up to a HDTV.

My brother is playing through Final Fantasy XII for the PS2 and it looks at least as good as Zelda. I never knew something as simple of a blurry word or jagged line would bother me so much in a video game. Those things never seemed to bother me before.

I guess the same way tommy can't go back a regular controller, I have a hard time going back to last-gen graphics.

I'm dissapointed that there aren't any games for the PS3 yet that look any better than 360 games. I expect there will be some coming out towards the end of next year, but they'll have to be exclusives. Cross-platform games never seem to do a great job of capturing a console's true power.

[tommy]

I just think of it this way, anyone can just improve the games looks for the better, but to change the way we play games as a whole is truly next gen in my book.

[AlanS17]

I just think of it this way, anyone can just improve the games looks for the better, but to change the way we play games as a whole is truly next gen in my book.

That's not unreasonable. But I think the PS3's cell processor and blu-ray certainly qualify as next-gen, too. The XBox 360 is just a fancier Xbox by comparison. (And it's really hard to compare either of those to a Wii.)

[AtomSmasher]

Since Zelda's graphics were originally designed for the Gamecube, they don't come close to the capabilities of the Wii.  I have a feeling that we won't see a game that really takes advantage of the graphical hardware until the new Mario comes out.

Also, after a few days of playing on the Wii, every last urge in me to buy a 360 or PS3 is now completely gone.  I probably eventually still get one, but it will probably be a couple years from now.

[ChadTower]

 
The Playstation (1 and 2) has always specialized in games that look really nice and play like crap.  I fully expect that to continue.

[shmokes]

Common Chad, that's retarded.  We've been over this.  The list of great games for those systems is far bigger than the list of great games for any of Sony's competitors.  Additionally, the PS2 was graphically inferior to both of its competitors just as the PS1 was graphically inferior to the N64.  It's nonsense.  You ought to lose it.

[ChadTower]

You simply cannot reasonably tell a person their opinion is wrong.  No matter how much you disagree with it.

That is nonsense.

The PS1's technologically parallel competitor was not the N64.  It was the Saturn.

[shmokes]

Okay Chad, well I think the world is flat.  Apparently you simply cannot reasonably tell me that I'm wrong.

I'm not telling you that your opinion is wrong -- as in, you don't believe what you're saying.  I know you do (though I don't know how you manage to hold on to these ridiculous notions when presented with a list of stellar PS games, but I digress . . . ).  I'm saying you are wrong. 

[RTSDaddy2]

I'll go back a bit in the thread and side with Tommy...though originally a Gamecube game, Zelda just simply rocks.  I have played approximately 1/3 to 1/2 the way into it (approx. 20 hours), and every turn brings a new surprise it seems.  Fully immersed in it with the Wii controllers, I cannot escape the incredible play, nor how cut scenes are seamlessly blended in to the actual game play.  It's definitely one of those "wow" games!  And if this is tip of the iceberg, I can hardly wait to see Super Mario Galaxy and Metroid Prime 3!!

[shmokes]

That's how I feel.  I just finished the first dungeon and cleared the darkness from the second area.  Lots of fun -- wonderful game so far.  I can only imagine what they will have in store for us with the first Zelda game that's built from the ground up around the Wii's more powerful hardware and brilliant controls, rather than a game that's merely retooled to take partial advantage of the controller.

And,

[somunny]

Hey Shmokes, did you see this?

Notice the nametag?  You can still realize your dream! 

[tommy]

I'm also wondering how great the Wii's Resident Evil will be next christmas, i can't wait. 

[Howard_Casto]

I guess if I didn't have a PS3 or a 360, I might think differently about the Wi''s graphics. The comparison is just too easy when they're both hooked up to a HDTV.

My brother is playing through Final Fantasy XII for the PS2 and it looks at least as good as Zelda. I never knew something as simple of a blurry word or jagged line would bother me so much in a video game. Those things never seemed to bother me before.

I guess the same way tommy can't go back a regular controller, I have a hard time going back to last-gen graphics.

I'm dissapointed that there aren't any games for the PS3 yet that look any better than 360 games. I expect there will be some coming out towards the end of next year, but they'll have to be exclusives. Cross-platform games never seem to do a great job of capturing a console's true power.

No.. the cell processor is a gimmick it doesn't make something next-gen, it makes something expensive.  Remember no matter how fancy it is, it still pales in comparsion to a super high-end pc so the only thing new about it is the amount of power now available on a console.  With that being said, it is apparently so difficult to program for that only in house sony games are going to take advantage of it, with most games looking identical to 360 games.  Since sony isn't exaclty known for making ground breaking games you are paying for powr that won't get used until around year 7-9.  The difference this go around is while the 360 is only slightly inferior graphically it is a LOT cheaper. 

So by conclusion of sheer logic there is absolutely positively no reason to buy a ps3 until it's price drops to a competative level and by that time it'll be too late since the xbox is already established as the main-stream box at this point and everyone has wii fever.  The ps3 is finally becoming available and yet nobody is buying it.  There is a reason, it's this years 3do or neogeo.  Only collectors or a very special type of gamer will purchase it.  The "frenzy" of the initial launch had more to do with people making a profit on ebay than people actually wanting a system. 

The 360 is defendable.  It is a decent system with decent games, and those os so prescious "next gen graphics" you seem to want so badly. 


The wii on the other hand is the only system of the three that I would consider next gen.  It does something truely new, the other two don't it is as simple as that.  I would put it this way... you don't hear a lot of buzz about next gen pc games, or even the term "next gen" used with pc games right?  That is because we are still in the same generation of pc games we have been for years.  Fancier graphics don't change the fact that on the pc you have fps, mmorpgs and sim games which all play the same now as they did 7 yers ago. 

People confuse the upgrading of graphics with the upgrading of gameplay because for a time they were related.  The snes was next-gen compared to the nes because the graphics were finally good enough to represent the charcters that used to be mere icons.  This improved gameplay though because levels could have more in them and do more without developers worrying about making the gameplay obvious so we won't confuse "blob a" with "blob b".  Also mode 7 gave us our first taste of 3d gameplay.  The n64 gave us mario 64, which pretty much defined the way we still play all 3d adventure games today.  It just happened to look better than the snes's 3d attempts though. 

After the n64, any improvements in graphics didn't make a system next-gen it just made it prettier.  We are still using the crappy "c stick"  camera navigation on the wii xbox 360 and ps3 that we did back then, for example. 

So no, the cell processor is not next gen at all because they haven't used it to improve the gameplay experience.  When they do, let us know. 

I would also like to point out that the wii is still a good deal more powerful than the original xbox, so other than true hd textures (which are overrated, even when using a hdtv) competative graphics with the 360 and ps3 are more than possible.  The low-end graphics on the launch titles, were, for the most part, intentional.  Grandma isn't going to pick up wii sports if it looks beyond her.  Stick men are safe and approachable to even non gamers.  A flaming crab demon with 30,000 polys that you can do "massive damage" to is not. 


All I have to say is resident evil + wii = more next gen than anything I can think of. 

[AtomSmasher]

No.. the cell processor is a gimmick it doesn't make something next-gen, it makes something expensive.  Remember no matter how fancy it is, it still pales in comparsion to a super high-end pc so the only thing new about it is the amount of power now available on a console.  With that being said, it is apparently so difficult to program for that only in house sony games are going to take advantage of it, with most games looking identical to 360 games.  Since sony isn't exaclty known for making ground breaking games you are paying for powr that won't get used until around year 7-9.  The difference this go around is while the 360 is only slightly inferior graphically it is a LOT cheaper. 

So by conclusion of sheer logic there is absolutely positively no reason to buy a ps3 until it's price drops to a competative level and by that time it'll be too late since the xbox is already established as the main-stream box at this point and everyone has wii fever.  The ps3 is finally becoming available and yet nobody is buying it.  There is a reason, it's this years 3do or neogeo.  Only collectors or a very special type of gamer will purchase it.  The "frenzy" of the initial launch had more to do with people making a profit on ebay than people actually wanting a system. 

The 360 is defendable.  It is a decent system with decent games, and those os so prescious "next gen graphics" you seem to want so badly. 


The wii on the other hand is the only system of the three that I would consider next gen.  It does something truely new, the other two don't it is as simple as that.  I would put it this way... you don't hear a lot of buzz about next gen pc games, or even the term "next gen" used with pc games right?  That is because we are still in the same generation of pc games we have been for years.  Fancier graphics don't change the fact that on the pc you have fps, mmorpgs and sim games which all play the same now as they did 7 yers ago. 

People confuse the upgrading of graphics with the upgrading of gameplay because for a time they were related.  The snes was next-gen compared to the nes because the graphics were finally good enough to represent the charcters that used to be mere icons.  This improved gameplay though because levels could have more in them and do more without developers worrying about making the gameplay obvious so we won't confuse "blob a" with "blob b".  Also mode 7 gave us our first taste of 3d gameplay.  The n64 gave us mario 64, which pretty much defined the way we still play all 3d adventure games today.  It just happened to look better than the snes's 3d attempts though. 

After the n64, any improvements in graphics didn't make a system next-gen it just made it prettier.  We are still using the crappy "c stick"  camera navigation on the wii xbox 360 and ps3 that we did back then, for example. 

So no, the cell processor is not next gen at all because they haven't used it to improve the gameplay experience.  When they do, let us know. 

I would also like to point out that the wii is still a good deal more powerful than the original xbox, so other than true hd textures (which are overrated, even when using a hdtv) competative graphics with the 360 and ps3 are more than possible.  The low-end graphics on the launch titles, were, for the most part, intentional.  Grandma isn't going to pick up wii sports if it looks beyond her.  Stick men are safe and approachable to even non gamers.  A flaming crab demon with 30,000 polys that you can do "massive damage" to is not. 


All I have to say is resident evil + wii = more next gen than anything I can think of. 

  Thanks, I needed a good laugh

[AlanS17]

Ok obviously we approached the same topic from different angles...

You're talking about next-gen game play and I'm talking about next-gen hardware. We're arguing over different things (whether it was intentional or not on your part).

All I said is that Sony has brought something to the table that's never been seen before. I think that qualifies as next-gen. Maybe it's not as powerful as a PC, but so what. We're not talking about PC's. We're talking about game consoles. It's the next generation of consoles.

Even by definition, these are next-gen consoles, anyways. They are the first new games systems in years, and new ones beyond these won't come out for many more years to come. So by definition it's a new generation... the "next generation".

Some people just can't pass up the opportunity to argue.

[Howard_Casto]

Ok obviously we approached the same topic from different angles...

You're talking about next-gen game play and I'm talking about next-gen hardware. We're arguing over different things (whether it was intentional or not on your part).

All I said is that Sony has brought something to the table that's never been seen before. I think that qualifies as next-gen. Maybe it's not as powerful as a PC, but so what. We're not talking about PC's. We're talking about game consoles. It's the next generation of consoles.

Even by definition, these are next-gen consoles, anyways. They are the first new games systems in years, and new ones beyond these won't come out for many more years to come. So by definition it's a new generation... the "next generation".

Some people just can't pass up the opportunity to argue.

Well apparently more people are agreeing with my point of view than yours because the wiis are still impossible to get and right now there are a good number of stores with 20+ ps3's that nobody will touch. 

The problem with your argument is the ps3 does NOT bring us something we've never seen before.  The launch titles are identical, and let me repeat that, identical to the ps2 launch titles both in appearance and gameplay.  The only difference is maybe a longer render draw, some flare blooms and shinier graphics.  It very well may eventually use that fancy cell procesor, but not anytime soon.  Right now it is a $600 resistance fall of man player, which is sad considering that game is rather average save it's shiny graphics. 

Your point of view falls apart because there is no such thing as next gen hardware unless there is software to play on it.  At the moment and for the forseeable future, there isn't any.

Oh and the lame symbol is uncalled for.  There are plenty of other people disagreeing with you in this thread, the only reason you used it is because I might actually have a point.   If I wanted  to argue with you you'd be rocking in the corner crying yourself to sleep by now.

[AlanS17]

Of course you can have next-gen hardware without software to support it. Why not? We're not talking about next-gen games. We're talking about a platform for next-gen games. Are you trying to say that the PS3 is not next-gen now, but somehow in a year it will be? Without changing at all? That certainly doesn't make any sense.

Here you go talking about the games again, and here I go talking about the hardware. Yes, the PS3 does bring something new - the cell processors and a Blu-Ray drive. How are those not new? They never existed before (with the exception of the Blu-Ray drive that's existed for a few months on stand-alone players).

How about 1080p, an upgradeable hard drive, an optoinal Linux OS, Bluetooth support, media capabilities, flash memory slots, wifi, a motion-sensitive controller and a web browser? It all seems pretty next-gen to me. Can you find some of that stuff on other new game consoles? Sure. But if it's a defining feature of making another game console "next-gen", then wouldn't it also apply to the PS3?

A next-gen console is one that enhances the experience (or at least has the capability to do so). Do improved graphics improve the experience? That's a matter of opinion, but the overwhelming majority would likely say yes. Would real-time physics enhance the experience? It's hard to say since most people haven't even seen much of it before, but probably so. How about the ability to hold a truly massive game on a high-capacity Blu-Ray disc to provide for a richer game experience? You bet. And those all have a direct impact on the gaming experience. Just because it's not a Wii doesn't mean it's not next-gen.

How many of these valid points are you going to ignore?

And Wiis are flying off the shelves because they're cheaper. If they were charging $500, people would be thinking twice about them too. In fact, that $500/$600 price tag is really the only negative comment I've heard on the PS3.

And keep in mind that I have a PS3, an XBox 360, and a Wii... And I play the Wii the most (primarily because of Zelda). So if nothing else, at least I have an educated opinion.

[geomartin]

Well, I've been following alot of the opinions since I first posted this question on 12/10.  Since then, my brother has obtained a Wii over Christmas for his kids.  I tried it out last weekend, and I have to say I am definitely going to purchase one when they become readilly available.  He had a few games, but after 3 hrs. I still had no desire to take out the Wii Sports disk.  Completely amazing gameplay.  On the other hand, I have no intention on buying a PS3, now or after a price drop.  I am completely content with my 360 at this point.

[RTSDaddy2]

Just got back from a quick run to Best Buy...not a Wii in site, but I bet there were 15 of the PS3 60 GBs if there was one...all sitting there, collecting dust.

In all seriousness, will Sony ever bite the bullet and lower the price on that thing? Very few are going to pay $600 for it when even the 360 offers compatible graphics at half the cost, to say nothing of the Wii's fun games and inexpense.  Why would I want to when I can buy a pretty decent PC for that price?

Forget the war...Sony can't even win the battle.

[shmokes]

Here are the things Sony has going for them, IMO.  After the last two generations, Sony was the company to bet on.  Playstation is such a huge brand name.  So, resources were devoted to the system early on, long before developers/publishers had any inkling of the missteps Sony was set to take with the PS3 launch.  For that reason, Sony had a very large number of titles available at launch and they have a huge number in development.  If devs and publishers knew then what they know now they might have allocated resources differently, but as it stands there are currently an enormous number of games slated to hit the console by next Christmas.  If they can get their price in line with 360, maybe just stay $30 more expensive or so, things could still turn around for them.

[farmecologist]

C'mon guys..why do we need to argue about 'which system is best' when EACH system has obvious pros/cons. 

I really never try to think in terms of what the 'best' system is but what system fits MY gaming style the best.  Others will obviously disagree so what's the point of arguing about it.

Of course, this thread was fun to read...

[Kane]

I NEVER believed the people saying that the PS3 could be found all over the place.......untill I was at EB Games today. I traded in a bunch of stuff and bought Guitar Hero 2. While the guy was scanning my stuff we got to talking about the Wii (I have one) when I noticed a PS3 box behind the counter. I mentioned this thread and how I've seen alot of posts about how the PS3 is just not selling now. To my astonishment he confirmed it by stating they had 12 PS3s in the back, and 3 people that day had traded in PS3s for other stuff. I also noticed that BJs had 5 bundles in the store. I still can't find an extra Wii remote.

[somunny]

C'mon guys..why do we need to argue about 'which system is best' when EACH system has obvious pros/cons. 

I really never try to think in terms of what the 'best' system is but what system fits MY gaming style the best.  Others will obviously disagree so what's the point of arguing about it.

Of course, this thread was fun to read...

I want 'em all!

[Howard_Casto]

I NEVER believed the people saying that the PS3 could be found all over the place.......untill I was at EB Games today. I traded in a bunch of stuff and bought Guitar Hero 2. While the guy was scanning my stuff we got to talking about the Wii (I have one) when I noticed a PS3 box behind the counter. I mentioned this thread and how I've seen alot of posts about how the PS3 is just not selling now. To my astonishment he confirmed it by stating they had 12 PS3s in the back, and 3 people that day had traded in PS3s for other stuff. I also noticed that BJs had 5 bundles in the store. I still can't find an extra Wii remote.

Ditto... I don't comment on something as insaine as a a next gen console lying stagnent on the shelves unelss I've seen it first hand.  Last ebgames I found had 10.  I asked if anyone had been buying them and the guy chuckled and outright said:  "Are you kidding man, they suck... everybody wants a wii."  This is sony's home away from home here... all the sony fanboys work are eb so that is pretty bad.

[AtomSmasher]

Gabe Newell, the boss at Valve best known for Half-life, had some funny comments about the ps3 and wii.

http://www.mcvuk.com/Valve-boss-blows-a-gasket-over-PS3

“The PS3 is a total disaster on so many levels, I think It’s really clear that Sony lost track of what customers and what developers wanted,” said Newell. “I’d say, even at this late date, they should just cancel it and do a ‘do over’. Just say, ‘This was a horrible disaster and we’re sorry and we’re going to stop selling this and stop trying to convince people to develop for it.’”

“The happy story is the Wii,” he added. “I’m betting that by Christmas of next year, the Wii has a larger installed base than the 360. Other people think I’m crazy. I really like everything that Nintendo is doing."

[Howard_Casto]

Less "funny" and more honest than anything else.  Janruary's EGM had a list of all the upcoming games for all three systems this year.  In the ps3 front, the games were severely lacking, save games that'll also be on the much cheaper 360.  They also commented that the two big exclusives for the ps3 (FF and MGS) might be pushed back as far as 2008, not because the games need time, but because konami and square are stalling to see if the ps3 even makes it off the ground, or else they'll have to look into making the games for other consoles. 


It's that $600 price point guys.  I can hate sony all I want but if it was priced about the same as the 360 I would have to admit that even with sluggish sales it'll do fine. In the entire history of video games, whenever a system has been too far beyond the average price point, even if it's by a uber famous and popular game company (see the jaguar) it has tanked miserably.  The ps3 is doing no worse game-wise than the 360's less than impressive launch lineup, the only difference is that the 360 has been out for a year, now actually has a good lineup and is 200 bucks cheaper than the new console on the block that doesn't. 


And while these two are dukeing it out with more of the same, you look over at the wii lineup and it's in a class all to itself.  The quantity of games isn't as great, but the quality sure is, with nearly every title in development (save pokemon, bah!) a must have.  Something noteable is the inclusion of voice acting in the next metroid game.  This is a big step for nintendo as stupid text boxes have been the only thing holding "the big three" nintendo franchises back.  My guess is it's a experiment on nintendo's part, seeing as it's the most mature of the three and if it works well it'll be applied to the other two eventually, giving the "hardcore" nothing more to complain about.  And of course nobody (except me) expected the wii to do as well as it did and this is only the first fo the year, so many developers are bound to jump on board soon. 

So in short the statement is fairly accurate.  The wii wasn't a novelty it is hear to stay and it'll be keeping the spotlight for some time.  The 360 isn't going to win any innovation awards, but it's sales are consistent if not a little slow compared to the wii.  And sony... well sorry guys. 

So yeah, when the ground settles it'll probably be Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony in the order of sales.

Oh did mention that it was announced at ces that the porn industry is officially backing hd-dvd and not blueray because sony doesn't want "immoral content" on the format?  This means that the war is officially over, hddvd won, so the blueray player is no longer going to be a plus on the ps3's specs.

[shmokes]

I saw an interview with a Vivid exec that made it clear that, as of yet, that story is being blown out of proportion.  He said that Vivid is currently producing for both formats.

[somunny]

I saw an interview with a Vivid exec that made it clear that, as of yet, that story is being blown out of proportion.  He said that Vivid is currently producing for both formats.

Did you find that on one of Vivid's productions under "extras"?   

[Howard_Casto]

Remember the executives are the money grubbing lawyer types who don't care about the games but want to have good p.r. and sell out to everyone.  Developers on the other hand are the guys actually making the games.  Which one's opinion do you value more?

[somunny]

People are comparing the current HD/BR format war to the VHS/Beta war and, IMO, it's really an apples and oranges comparison.  Why?  One reason; the internet.  I wouldn't think that your average porn-watcher is going to spring for a high def player to see the latest releases when they can get them for nothing (or cheaper) on the internet.

[Howard_Casto]

People are comparing the current HD/BR format war to the VHS/Beta war and, IMO, it's really an apples and oranges comparison.  Why?  One reason; the internet.  I wouldn't think that your average porn-watcher is going to spring for a high def player to see the latest releases when they can get them for nothing (or cheaper) on the internet.

I agree to a point, but people are willing to pay money to see their porn on the tv screen rather than their puny 19 inch computer monitor.  And if we are going that route m$ seems to be willing to sell movies through the 360 (mind you at an insaine price) and the ps3 not so much. 



Btw I went to walmart yesterday (where I hadn't been in a while) to look at the last batch of wii releases.  Still no wii's.  I looked over at the ps3 case though and 3 ps3's were in stock.  Apparently they had been there a few days to as there was a fine layer of dust on them. 

I almost feel sorry of sony at this point. 

[AlanS17]

HC, I see where you're going about downloading movies on the Xbox 360 when the PS3 can't, but I doubt either system would ever carry porn. Everything else makes sense. Carry on.

[Howard_Casto]

I don't know what m$'s policy is about adult titles, but I wouldn't rule them out.  The 360 has parental controls which could, in theory, block the content and thus allow them to sell it without getting sued. 

One if the things I don't like about about m$ is their willingness to do anything to make a buck.  So rest assured, if they can find a way to do it without getting the stink-eye from parents, they will.

[shmokes]

Hah . . . I don't think you really believe there is even a slight chance that MS would even touch porn with a thousand-foot-pole on the Xbox 360.  No ---smurfing--- way.  Not a chance in hell.  Parental controls or no, there is no way they would do it.  MS does not sell or distribute porn on the PC, and what possible medium could be easier than that?  And they'd be damned stupid to anyway.  You think a company like that would be willing to accept that kind of ding to their public image?  And no less with a device that they actively market to kids?  LMAO