AVGA and Arkanoid: whats a good resolution to pick?

[Banacek]

I can't seem to find one that works well with Arkanoid. What ones do you guys use? Thanks!

[TalkingOctopus]

Is your monitor horizontal or vertical?

[Banacek]

Is your monitor horizontal or vertical?

Sorry, forgot my info. My monitor is a Betson 27" Multi-sync set up horizontally. I picked res. 256 256 60Hz figuring that it would fit, it would just have some blank space on the side. Instead the top is chopped off (not because of the monitor) and there's a bunch of space at the bottom. Here's two pics:





Here's a pic of XP at that resoultion to show where the display edges are. I can't seem to figure out why Mame is displaying the picture messed up like that. It's like it's not centering the picture at all.

[TalkingOctopus]

Are you 100% sure MAME is choosing 256  by 256?  If possible, do a print screen of arkanoid and then paste the image in an editor to find out its dimensions.  You might want to do the same for windows.

[Banacek]

Are you 100% sure MAME is choosing 256  by 256?  If possible, do a print screen of arkanoid and then paste the image in an editor to find out its dimensions.  You might want to do the same for windows.

Here's a screenshot taken in Mame:



And here's a shot of the desktop:



They come up to the right sizes, but it's not displaying right. Here's the output from "-verbose":

E:\mame>mame arkanoid -verbose
Video: Monitor 00010001 = "\\.\DISPLAY1" (primary)
DirectDraw: Using DirectDraw 7
DirectDraw: Configuring device Ultimarc ArcadeVGA
DirectDraw: Selecting video mode...
   240x 240@ 60Hz -> 1000.004762
   256x 240@ 60Hz -> 1000.005155
   256x 256@ 60Hz -> 3000.000000
   256x 264@ 60Hz -> 1000.005882
   288x 240@ 60Hz -> 1000.006173
   296x 240@ 60Hz -> 1000.006494
   304x 240@ 60Hz -> 1000.006849
   321x 240@ 60Hz -> 1000.007752
   321x 256@ 60Hz -> 1000.008850
   336x 240@ 60Hz -> 1000.008772
   352x 256@ 60Hz -> 1000.012195
   352x 264@ 60Hz -> 1000.013514
   352x 288@ 60Hz -> 1000.020000
   368x 240@ 60Hz -> 1000.012195
   384x 288@ 60Hz -> 1000.050000
   392x 240@ 60Hz -> 1000.013158
   401x 256@ 60Hz -> 1000.014493
   448x 240@ 60Hz -> 1000.007576
   448x 384@ 60Hz -> 1006.944444
   512x 240@ 60Hz -> 1000.005102
   512x 288@ 60Hz -> 1000.006757
   512x 384@ 60Hz -> 1004.807692
   512x 448@ 60Hz -> 1003.676471
   512x 512@ 60Hz -> 1002.976191
   632x 264@ 60Hz -> 1000.003425
   640x 240@ 60Hz -> 1000.003086
   640x 288@ 60Hz -> 1000.003623
   640x 480@ 60Hz -> 1002.314815
   640x 480@ 72Hz -> 79.237895
   640x 480@ 75Hz -> 64.814815
   640x 480@ 85Hz -> 40.776355
   640x 480@ 90Hz -> 34.572878
   640x 480@100Hz -> 26.705058
   640x 480@120Hz -> 18.708257
   640x 480@160Hz -> 12.215805
   640x 480@200Hz -> 9.407013
   648x 288@ 60Hz -> 1000.003521
   720x 480@ 60Hz -> 1001.953125
   800x 600@ 47Hz -> 8.547352
   800x 600@ 56Hz -> 21.404494
   800x 600@ 60Hz -> 1001.404494
   800x 600@ 70Hz -> 92.313588
   800x 600@ 72Hz -> 78.327574
   800x 600@ 75Hz -> 63.904494
   800x 600@ 85Hz -> 39.866034
   800x 600@ 90Hz -> 33.662558
   800x 600@100Hz -> 25.794737
   800x 600@120Hz -> 17.797936
   800x 600@160Hz -> 11.305484
   800x 600@200Hz -> 8.496693
  1024x 768@ 43Hz -> 6.461353
  1024x 768@ 60Hz -> 1000.905797
  1024x 768@ 70Hz -> 91.814891
  1024x 768@ 72Hz -> 77.828877
  1024x 768@ 75Hz -> 63.405797
  1024x 768@ 85Hz -> 39.367337
  1024x 768@ 90Hz -> 33.163861
  1024x 768@100Hz -> 25.296040
  1024x 768@120Hz -> 17.299239
  1024x 768@150Hz -> 11.894808
  1024x 768@160Hz -> 10.806787
  1024x 768@200Hz -> 7.997995
DirectDraw: Mode selected =  256x 256@ 60Hz
DirectDraw: primary surface created: 256x256x32 (R=00FF0000 G=0000FF00 B=000000F
F)
DirectDraw: New blit size = 383x306
DirectDraw: blit surface created: 383x306x32 (R=00FF0000 G=0000FF00 B=000000FF)
DirectInput: Using DirectInput 7
Input: Using RAWMOUSE for Mouse input
Input: Mouse 1 : HID-compliant mouse
Input: Mouse 2 : HID-compliant mouse
Input: Keyboards=1  Mice=2  Joysticks=0  Lightguns=2
Input: "mycontrols" controller support enabled
DirectSound: Primary buffer: 48000 Hz, 16 bits, 2 channels
Average FPS: 60.000000 (5983 frames)

Hopefully someone has an idea of what's going on.

[Silver]

Hmmm not sure, but "DirectDraw: New blit size = 383x306" looks suspicious as you only have 256x256 visible.

Not sure what controls this though.

[Banacek]

Hmmm not sure, but "DirectDraw: New blit size = 383x306" looks suspicious as you only have 256x256 visible.

Not sure what controls this though.

I was thinking the same thing, but I too have no idea what blit size is...

[Silver]

Ok, I think blit size might be the actual size of the image created by the game.

I was looking at aof2, which is listed as 320x224, but the actual video output seems to be 304x224 (and the New Blit size is listed as 304x224).

Could it be that 256x256 is incorrect for arkanoid? 383x306 sounds odd though - so it could be the 383 is incorrect.

try your 384x or 392x resolutions....

[Howard_Casto]

I read "aaroneese" and what the message is telling you is that 256x256 is indeed the resolution mame is selected and then a larger blitting surface is being generated because arkanoid uses off-screen blitting to render the graphics.  The blit size and the resolution selected have nothing to do with each other anymore.  You need to manually set a resolution for arkanoid if you want it to look better.  512x384 should work nicely for a vertical game on a horizontal monitor, anything bigger will be interlaced. 

As for the cropping, you can adjust that in-game now via the tilde menu.  Try it and see if it helps. 

[Banacek]

I read "aaroneese" and what the message is telling you is that 256x256 is indeed the resolution mame is selected and then a larger blitting surface is being generated because arkanoid uses off-screen blitting to render the graphics.  The blit size and the resolution selected have nothing to do with each other anymore.  You need to manually set a resolution for arkanoid if you want it to look better.  512x384 should work nicely for a vertical game on a horizontal monitor, anything bigger will be interlaced. 

As for the cropping, you can adjust that in-game now via the tilde menu.  Try it and see if it helps. 

Well, that does display the game, but it has a lot of that dead space around it. Here's a look:





Now I know you can use the tilde menu to stretch out the video, but if I wanted that I could just put hwstretching on. Anyway, if I use the tilde menu it just seems to move what's inside the dead space. There's no way to have mame render  just the 224x256 output? Maybe I'm not understanding what's going on when it comes to vertical games. Even if I turn rotate off, there's still that dead space. If it wasn't there, the output would fit the screen perfectly. I'm very confused

[Howard_Casto]

Well I think what you aren't understanding is that arcade monitors don't auto-adjust like a computer monitor would.  Almost all of your horizontal games are gonna show up great without adjustment because they use the same resolution (or multiples of the same resolution) vertical games, on the other hand use an inverse resolution.   

Monkeying around with it some more should get you closer to a nice full screen, but you aren't going to get it perfect without either using hw stretch or adjusting the settings. 

btw your running 640x480 in those pics, which is why it's so small.  It's too high a res. 

[Banacek]

Well I think what you aren't understanding is that arcade monitors don't auto-adjust like a computer monitor would.  Almost all of your horizontal games are gonna show up great without adjustment because they use the same resolution (or multiples of the same resolution) vertical games, on the other hand use an inverse resolution.   

Monkeying around with it some more should get you closer to a nice full screen, but you aren't going to get it perfect without either using hw stretch or adjusting the settings. 

btw your running 640x480 in those pics, which is why it's so small.  It's too high a res. 

No, I just took a picture so you could see the dead space. If I print a screenshot in Mame it won't have it. That's actually 512x384. I understand that there's going to be some space since the resolution isn't exact, but that's a lot of space.

[TalkingOctopus]

Can you use the monitor controls to center arkanoid at the desired resolution? 

I don't have a fancy pants monitor like the Betson 27" Multi-sync, but with my arcade monitor, I have to manually adjust the monitor controls each time the resolution changes.  Fortunately, the monitor controls are easilty accessible under my control panel.  In a real (legal) arcade, you'd have to switch boards to switch resolutions, so you'd install the new board, adjust the monitor and call it a day until the next time you installed a new game board in the cabinet.

[Banacek]

Can you use the monitor controls to center arkanoid at the desired resolution? 

I don't have a fancy pants monitor like the Betson 27" Multi-sync, but with my arcade monitor, I have to manually adjust the monitor controls each time the resolution changes.  Fortunately, the monitor controls are easilty accessible under my control panel.  In a real (legal) arcade, you'd have to switch boards to switch resolutions, so you'd install the new board, adjust the monitor and call it a day until the next time you installed a new game board in the cabinet.

The dead space is being generated by mame, not because the monitor adjustment. I'm just going to pick a bigger resolution and turn on stretching. You see, it's my lady's favorite game, and if we can play it I might as well not have the arcade cabinet at all I just wanted to figure out why I couldn't get it to display properly.

[Silver]

When you say 'dead-space' I presume you mean below/above the image (can't tell from the oversized pics).

For vertical games, the best you can do with a horizontal monitor is have no 'dead-space' above and below the image, but you will definately get lots of dead-space either side of the image. (Obvious, but just want to check we are aiming for the same thing)

Arkanoid seems to generate a 256x224 screen. So I don't understand why it's cropping when you run 256x256.

Although I think there is a whole (pixel) aspect ratio issue we are overlooking - 256x256 sounds square, but is obviously not as we are running on a 4:3 screen. So although we should be able to display a 256x224 image (rotated) on a horizontal 256x256 screen, it may still look incorrect, and if you have aspect ratio settings on, mame may be correcting for this.

This is where my brain tends to melt calculating aspects....

Aspect correction info:
http://lrmc.sourceforge.net/html/monitor8.htm

[Banacek]

When you say 'dead-space' I presume you mean below/above the image (can't tell from the oversized pics).

For vertical games, the best you can do with a horizontal monitor is have no 'dead-space' above and below the image, but you will definately get lots of dead-space either side of the image. (Obvious, but just want to check we are aiming for the same thing)

Arkanoid seems to generate a 256x224 screen. So I don't understand why it's cropping when you run 256x256.

Although I think there is a whole (pixel) aspect ratio issue we are overlooking - 256x256 sounds square, but is obviously not as we are running on a 4:3 screen. So although we should be able to display a 256x224 image (rotated) on a horizontal 256x256 screen, it may still look incorrect, and if you have aspect ratio settings on, mame may be correcting for this.

This is where my brain tends to melt calculating aspects....

Aspect correction info:
http://lrmc.sourceforge.net/html/monitor8.htm

That's what I figured, and the game would fit at the 256x256 resolution height-wise if mame didn't insist to create that dead space border around the actual game.

[Banacek]

Maybe this'll help. This is a windows screenshot, not a mame screenshot. See the border at the bottom? That's what I'm talking about.

[Silver]

Aha, now we are getting somewhere. I can not reproduce that image in a window at all, with a variety of mame settings.

Do you have/is there any arkanoid artwork?

Could you print your mame.ini file here to produce that image in a window...

[Banacek]

Aha, now we are getting somewhere. I can not reproduce that image in a window at all, with a variety of mame settings.

Do you have/is there any arkanoid artwork?

Could you print your mame.ini file here to produce that image in a window...

Sure thing.

#
# CONFIGURATION OPTIONS
#
readconfig                1
skip_gameinfo             1

#
# PATH AND DIRECTORY OPTIONS
#
rompath                   e:\roms
samplepath                e:\extras\samples
inipath                   ini
cfg_directory             cfg
nvram_directory           nvram
memcard_directory         memcard
input_directory           inp
state_directory           sta
artpath                   e:\extras\artwork
snapshot_directory        e:\extras\snap
diff_directory            diff
ctrlrpath                 ctrlr
comment_directory         comments
cheat_file                cheat.dat

#
# MISC OPTIONS
#
bios                      default
cheat                     0

#
# STATE/PLAYBACK OPTIONS
#
# state                   <NULL> (not set)
autosave                  0
# playback                <NULL> (not set)
# record                  <NULL> (not set)
# mngwrite                <NULL> (not set)
# wavwrite                <NULL> (not set)

#
# DEBUGGING OPTIONS
#
log                       0
oslog                     0
verbose                   0

#
# PERFORMANCE OPTIONS
#
autoframeskip             0
frameskip                 0
frames_to_run             0
throttle                  1
sleep                     1
rdtsc                     0
priority                  0
multithreading            0

#
# VIDEO OPTIONS
#
video                     ddraw
numscreens                1
window                    0
maximize                  1
keepaspect                1
prescale                  1
effect                    none
pause_brightness          0.65
waitvsync                 0
syncrefresh               0

#
# VIDEO ROTATION OPTIONS
#
rotate                    1
ror                       0
rol                       0
autoror                   0
autorol                   0
flipx                     0
flipy                     0

#
# DIRECTDRAW-SPECIFIC OPTIONS
#
hwstretch                 0

#
# DIRECT3D-SPECIFIC OPTIONS
#
d3dversion                9
filter                    1

#
# PER-WINDOW VIDEO OPTIONS
#
screen                    auto
aspect                    auto
resolution                auto
view                      auto
screen0                   auto
aspect0                   auto
resolution0               auto
view0                     auto
screen1                   auto
aspect1                   auto
resolution1               auto
view1                     auto
screen2                   auto
aspect2                   auto
resolution2               auto
view2                     auto
screen3                   auto
aspect3                   auto
resolution3               auto
view3                     auto

#
# FULL SCREEN OPTIONS
#
triplebuffer              0
switchres                 1
full_screen_brightness    1.0
full_screen_contrast      1.0
full_screen_gamma         1.0

#
# GAME SCREEN OPTIONS
#
brightness                1.0
contrast                  1.0
gamma                     1.0

#
# VECTOR RENDERING OPTIONS
#
antialias                 1
beam                      1.0
flicker                   0

#
# ARTWORK OPTIONS
#
artwork_crop              0
use_backdrops             1
use_overlays              1
use_bezels                0

#
# SOUND OPTIONS
#
sound                     1
samplerate                48000
samples                   1
volume                    0
audio_latency             1

#
# INPUT DEVICE OPTIONS
#
ctrlr                     mycontrols
mouse                     1
joystick                  0
lightgun                  0
dual_lightgun             0
offscreen_reload          0
steadykey                 0
a2d_deadzone              0.3
digital                   none

#
# AUTOMATIC DEVICE SELECTION OPTIONS
#
paddle_device             keyboard
adstick_device            keyboard
pedal_device              keyboard
dial_device               mouse
trackball_device          mouse
lightgun_device           mouse

I set all the artwork options to 0, didn't make a difference. There is an Arkanoid bezel, but it shouldn't be showing up with use_bezels set to zero. I also have an arkanoid.ini, but all that contains is "resolution 256x265".

[Silver]

try setting maximize to 0

(this function does not appear to be working as described in the docs in this situation - some other option must be altering its behaviour).

[Howard_Casto]

Well if you have an arkanoid.ini that is setting the resolution, don't you think that is what is forcing the resolution?

duh!

Btw you typed 256x265 I don't know if that was a typo or not, but since 256xx265 is not a resolution listed by your card, that is why you are getting the odd-ball resolution.

Also about the directdraw surface.... pixel aspect is a non-issue, because unless Aaron typed the verbose output wierd, it says it created a 256x256 directdraw surface.  Surfaces can't be stretched and in fullscreen mode the surface size would have to equal the resolution, unless some crazy manual blitting is going on.  (Which is a possibility) 

Dead space generally occurs on any directx app when the resolution selected isn't supported but the code has error suppression.  What happens is a larger resolution is actually used and since the surface size can't be stretched, it simply fills as much of the screen as possible, leaving dead space below and to the right.  This is what you are describing yes?

So remove the ini and see what res it selects now. 

[Banacek]

Well if you have an arkanoid.ini that is setting the resolution, don't you think that is what is forcing the resolution?

duh!

Btw you typed 256x265 I don't know if that was a typo or not, but since 256xx265 is not a resolution listed by your card, that is why you are getting the odd-ball resolution.

Also about the directdraw surface.... pixel aspect is a non-issue, because unless Aaron typed the verbose output wierd, it says it created a 256x256 directdraw surface.  Surfaces can't be stretched and in fullscreen mode the surface size would have to equal the resolution, unless some crazy manual blitting is going on.  (Which is a possibility) 

Dead space generally occurs on any directx app when the resolution selected isn't supported but the code has error suppression.  What happens is a larger resolution is actually used and since the surface size can't be stretched, it simply fills as much of the screen as possible, leaving dead space below and to the right.  This is what you are describing yes?

So remove the ini and see what res it selects now. 

That was a typo, my bad. After getting the chance to do extended testing, other games at that resolution (Donkey Kong, 1942, Arkanoid: Revenge of Doh) work perfectly. The only game so far to have this problem is Arkanoid and it's clones. Here's a comparison between "-verbose" outputs, with both games set to "resolution auto":

E:\mame>mame arkanoid -verbose
Video: Monitor 00010001 = "\\.\DISPLAY1" (primary)
DirectDraw: Using DirectDraw 7
DirectDraw: Configuring device Ultimarc ArcadeVGA
DirectDraw: Selecting video mode...
(cut out different tests)
DirectDraw: Mode selected =  256x 256@ 60Hz
DirectDraw: primary surface created: 256x256x32 (R=00FF0000 G=0000FF00 B=000000F
F)
DirectDraw: New blit size = 383x306
DirectDraw: blit surface created: 383x306x32 (R=00FF0000 G=0000FF00 B=000000FF)
DirectInput: Using DirectInput 7
Input: Using RAWMOUSE for Mouse input
Input: Mouse 1 : HID-compliant mouse
Input: Mouse 2 : HID-compliant mouse
Input: Keyboards=1  Mice=2  Joysticks=0  Lightguns=2
Input: "mycontrols" controller support enabled
DirectSound: Primary buffer: 48000 Hz, 16 bits, 2 channels
Average FPS: 60.000004 (728 frames)

E:\mame>mame arknoid2 -verbose
Video: Monitor 00010001 = "\\.\DISPLAY1" (primary)
DirectDraw: Using DirectDraw 7
DirectDraw: Configuring device Ultimarc ArcadeVGA
DirectDraw: Selecting video mode...
(cut out different tests)
DirectDraw: Mode selected =  256x 256@ 60Hz
DirectDraw: primary surface created: 256x256x32 (R=00FF0000 G=0000FF00 B=000000F
F)
DirectDraw: New blit size = 224x256
DirectDraw: blit surface created: 224x256x32 (R=00FF0000 G=0000FF00 B=000000FF)
DirectInput: Using DirectInput 7
Input: Using RAWMOUSE for Mouse input
Input: Mouse 1 : HID-compliant mouse
Input: Mouse 2 : HID-compliant mouse
Input: Keyboards=1  Mice=2  Joysticks=0  Lightguns=2
Input: "mycontrols" controller support enabled
ark28742.bin NOT FOUND (NO GOOD DUMP KNOWN)
WARNING: the game might not run correctly.
DirectSound: Primary buffer: 48000 Hz, 16 bits, 2 channels
Average FPS: 60.000011 (344 frames)

For arknoid2 (also for dkong and 1942), the blit size is equal to the what the resolution should be, in this case 224x256. It seems only arkanoid is giving me the trouble. This is so odd.

[Silver]

Using your ini, I get stuff off-screen - but sideways, not vertically.

If I set maximize to 0, it is corrected.

[Banacek]

Using your ini, I get stuff off-screen - but sideways, not vertically.

If I set maximize to 0, it is corrected.

GOT IT! (I think) I just dled a fresh version of Mame. Can you do me a favor and set up the artwork path in Mame and then set "use_bezels" to 1 and run arkanoid. Make sure the Bezel comes up. Then quit out and change "use_bezels" to 0, and bam!, you should have the problem I was having. If I never use the bezel, Arkanoid works fine. Interesting...

[Silver]

once done, can you correct it by deleteing the arkanoid.cfg file in the cfg directory?

EDIT: ok, I get a cropped top section of the screen, and black space at the bottom.

Mame creates a different size windows IF you point it to a valid artwork directory no matter what any of the artwork options are. How strange.

EDIT2: This might be about what video mode mame starts up in. Hit Tab and go to video options, then switch between 3:4 aspect and pixel aspect (7:

Once you have run with bezels, mame starts up in the "with instructions card" video mode, which appears to crop some of the screen?

[Banacek]

once done, can you correct it by deleteing the arkanoid.cfg file in the cfg directory?

EDIT: ok, I get a cropped top section of the screen, and black space at the bottom.

Mame creates a different size windows IF you point it to a valid artwork directory no matter what any of the artwork options are. How strange.

EDIT2: This might be about what video mode mame starts up in. Hit Tab and go to video options, then switch between 3:4 aspect and pixel aspect (7:

Once you have run with bezels, mame starts up in the "with instructions card" video mode, which appears to crop some of the screen?

Deleting the cfg files does nothing. The only thing that will make it go back to normal is removing the valid artwork directory. The thing is, if you put the valid artwork directory back, it gets messed up again. It seems to be creating the space for the bezel, whether you want it to or not.

[Banacek]

If anyone is looking for a temp fix to this, just create a individual ini file for the game (if you haven't already) and add an "artwork" entry like you would have in mame.ini, and make sure it points to a directory that doesn't have your mame artwork. I'm glad to finally have Arkanoid working the way it should 

[Silver]

I find another solution is to the run the game (as its cropped), hit Tab, go to video options, and select Pixel Aspect 7:8 mode (which should correct the cropping). If you then quit, the setting appears to be remembered even if you have a valid artwork directory..............................

[Banacek]

I find another solution is to the run the game (as its cropped), hit Tab, go to video options, and select Pixel Aspect 7:8 mode (which should correct the cropping). If you then quit, the setting appears to be remembered even if you have a valid artwork directory..............................

For some reason that didn't work for me, but I'll try it again later.

[Howard_Casto]

I'm pretty sure that what you described is not the cause of the problem, rather something unique to your configuration.  Turning artwork off should fix issues related to bezels and just setting a valid path isn't enough to change the aspect.  It is good that you got it working though. 

Artwork cannot be disabled anymore, but what you do is you disable all of the subsets.  Generally disabling bezels is good enough for most people as any special artwork is not classified as a bezel and thus it'll still be displayed. 

Hope that helps. 

[Silver]

Turning artwork off should fix issues related to bezels and just setting a valid path isn't enough to change the aspect.

I thought this too, but having tested with arkanoid, I can set up it so that simply changing the path from valid to non-valid (and vice-versa) causes mame to startup in a different video mode (in this case, one which crops the game screen).

How does mame decide which video mode (out of the several options that crop up in the Tab->Video mode menu) to startup in? Or is per-game?