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Author Topic: UPDATE: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday  (Read 11299 times)

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Lutus

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UPDATE: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« on: September 20, 2006, 02:37:53 pm »
EDIT:  Update on 2nd page.



Anyone else here into martial arts?

I started a kickboxing/grappling program, think UFC, and it is ridiculous.  The first thing we did was called "conditioning".  Basically you stand there and kick each other shin against shin.  From there you kick each other in the thighs then the ribs.  Then you go into full sparring.  All this on the first day.

Basically, for those interested, it is Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu two nights a week and a version of Muay-Thai kickboxing two nights a week.  Put them together on Saturdays for Mixed Martial Arts practice. 

I am getting my butt kicked and thrown all over the place.  Any one else into this kind of stuff?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 12:43:56 pm by Lutus »
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ChadTower

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2006, 02:43:28 pm »

I'm just starting TKD with some Ninjitsu thrown in myself.  From the very beginning. 

What you're doing is called hardbody conditioning.  You have to condition your body for abuse before you can do more.  Your body will soon adapt, bones becoming more dense and muscles tougher, so you can take on more advanced tasks.  Without the conditioning you'll just get injured in short order.

Hurts like a ---smurfette---, don't it?

thebrownshow

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2006, 02:49:35 pm »
Ever see Mike Reeves?  He holds the record for board breaking. 
http://mikereevesonline.com/

Saw a demo he did on ESPN once, it's amazing.  Afterwards, he was talking about what Chad was just discussing; how your bones get tougher from all the abuse they take.  It's the same principle behind muscles getting stronger... you do a little bit of damage, and your body rebuilds them stronger.  Amazing ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.  Essentially, he can only do that because of the years and years of training he's done... if you or I tried to do that ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---, we'd break our hands.

Lutus

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2006, 04:32:20 pm »
It feels like I already broke my shin!!!!  :laugh2:
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shardian

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2006, 04:36:06 pm »
Good thing they don't teach you those worthless concepts such as proper technique, confidence, and discipline - among other things.  :laugh2:
I took Tae Kwon Do for awhile a few years ago. Very fun, and you learn more than to kick someone in the shin real hard.

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2006, 04:38:25 pm »
I did muay thai kickboxing for over a year. I dabbled in jiu jitsu. The kickboxing is brutal, I hope you have a high pain tolerance. Not to mention the endurance you need to make it through a training session. After a year I was able to do 3 hrs on a round timer. You will become a dangerous person if you stick with it. I have been thinking about getting back into it.

Beer bottle on the shins is good for conditioning. Start out lightly and go up and down your shin. I used to do it while watching TV  :laugh:

ChadTower

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #6 on: September 20, 2006, 04:40:22 pm »
You have to build the foundation before you build the walls.  He didn't walk into a day 1 beginner class.  He walked into a functioning class that wasn't about to reset itself because he joined.  He will get a little side assistance but for the most part is going to have to pick himself up and do his best to keep up.  If it's a good program they'll have patience but won't hold up the program for him.  They will watch his work ethic.  If he works his ass off they will respect that and nurse him through.  If he doesn't work hard he won't last long and isn't tough enough to go very far anyway.  They get a lot of folks who come in, try some classes, and decide it's not for them.  It's not for most people.

Your shins will get worse before they get better.  But they will get better.




lordtodd75

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2006, 04:44:08 pm »
I beg to differ shardian, you do acquire self confidence and discipline. I took tae kwon doe for a couple of months and I can tell you it doesn't take near as much discipline. Plus at 3 months of muay thai training I could kick the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- out of a tae kwon doe black belt. I would take a fighting style (muay thai) over a martial art (tae kwon doe) any day of the week!!!

ChadTower

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2006, 04:48:04 pm »
I beg to differ shardian, you do acquire self confidence and discipline. I took tae kwon doe for a couple of months and I can tell you it doesn't take near as much discipline. Plus at 3 months of muay thai training I could kick the ---Cleveland steamer--- out of a tae kwon doe black belt. I would take a fighting style (muay thai) over a martial art (tae kwon doe) any day of the week!!!

That's entirely dependent on the teacher, how they teach, and how you learn.  And there is no way a pure 3 month muay thai student defeats a TKD black belt.  The student wouldn't be able to get through the black belt's defense.

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2006, 05:06:16 pm »
I have been into Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu / MMA for the last 13 years. When the UFC began fighters were flying in from all over to train with our camp (Pedro Sauer). Tank Abbott, Dan Severn, Dave Beneteau, and a bunch of other fighters came into learn the graound game from us. We also had Olympic Wrestler Mark Schultz training with us before he started his own camp.

Now I try and go and train with Jeremy Horn and his drew in SLC once or twice a month. We always go up when Tim Silvia or Matt Hughes is in town.

Who are you learning BJJ from??

When I started I did BJJ 3 days and American Kenpo 2 days a week.

When I was a white belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu I was challenged all of the time by TKD Black Belts in Argentina. There were never rules to the fight and whoever gave up or was knocked out was the loser. In 2 years I fought 12 times and never lost. I always waited for them to throw a kick and then went for a double/single leg take down. Once they were on the ground they would go to their stomaches and I would choke them out from behind. Not one fight last longer than a minute and they always ended with the same submission.

The problem with martial arts nowadays is that you can get your Black Belt in 2 years. When I started train in Jiu-Jitsu it took you at least 2 years to get your next belt. You also had to beat every person who has the same rank as you in your class to be considered to be increased in rank. I never saw a Blue Belt in BJJ lose to a Black Belt in another martial art back then.

Anyway.... Good luck in your class.

ChadTower

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2006, 08:36:07 pm »
The problem with martial arts nowadays is that you can get your Black Belt in 2 years. When I started train in Jiu-Jitsu it took you at least 2 years to get your next belt.

That is pretty much what I was talking about.  That's not a black belt.  That is someone who was promoted on a set schedule according to when their check cleared.

NightGod

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #11 on: September 21, 2006, 01:20:56 am »
I'm currently taking Hapkido from a master who was trained in a traditional style in Chilie by a Korean Grandmaster and my kids are taking Tae Kwon Do (which is a sport, I don't care what anyone says-I consider it like a more disciplined form of soccer or volleyball for them, and so does the master and his wife/assistant instructor). It's a very different feeling than other schools I've attended or looked into. Not sure if it's just something around here, but most of the teachers I've seen tend to be very vain and spend most of an initial conversation with them telling you what they know, whereas he spends most of the initial conversation trying to find out what you know and what you want to learn.

While he does progress through the belts relatively quickly by some standards (about 3 months a piece for your early belts, assuming you go at least twice a week, black belt within three years at that pace), he always goes far above and beyond the standards required by the professional association we're in (World Hapkido Association). As an example, part of our promotion test to Yellow belt is breaking a large river stone with your hands-most Western schools do that as a black belt thing, if they do it at all.

Overall, I've been very happy with what I've experienced and learned in the 10 1/2 months I've been a student there-though I'm now getting to the point where I'm realizing exactly how much I still have to learn, which I think is awesome.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2006, 01:54:34 am by NightGod »
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ChadTower

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #12 on: September 21, 2006, 08:50:55 am »
... I'm now getting to the point where I'm realizing exactly how much I still have to learn, which I think is awesome.

That is a major breakthrough... not just in martial arts but in life.  I was always told by my grandfather that I would be a man on the day I knew enough to know how much I didn't know yet.  Most people don't even understand that concept, nevermind actually reach that point of maturity.

Once I finally got what he meant, probably around 18 years old, I started to focus not on what I knew or understood but instead aimed my attention at those things just beyond what I was comfortable with.  That leads a person to a continual thirst for more.  Life is more fun when there is always something right in front of you to learn.

Lutus

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #13 on: September 21, 2006, 09:16:50 am »
Everyone's opinion has quite a bit of merit.  My whole goal is to lose some weight and get in better shape.  Also, I hope to be able to confidently defend myself against an unarmed attacker.  I have never been so tired or so sore in my entire life.

I am beginning to understand how important (and decievingly simple it is to use your forearm as a choke and your shin as a swinging battering ram!)

I have spoken with a black belt in taekwondo here at work and he said that it was a much different style.  Taekwondo focuses alot more on technique, speed, concentration, and agility whereas Muay-Thai focuses on power, speed, pain tolerance, stamina, and flexibility.  (each one also has other areas, but you get my drift)

This is my Muay-Thai teacher:

"Sensei Dennis has trained for over 25 years in Shaolin Goju.He has also trained in Shotokan, Muay Thai, Krav Maga and currently trains in Sambo and Brazilian Jiu-jitsu .Sensei Dennis is a member of the Shinjimasu International Martial Arts Association and holds a 5th Degree Black Belt in Shaolin Goju under Grand Master Gallop Franklin. "

and my Jiu-Jitsu/Sambo coach:

"Sambo Coach, 4th Degree Black Belt (Boxfighting Federation):
Carlos Cummings has been studying martial arts for over ten years. His martial arts journey started at the age of sixteen in the art of Judo. Since then he has moved on to other arts such as Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, Israeli Self-Protection, Greco Roman Wrestling and Mauy Thai. Carlos has also trained under Master Mani Javaheri in BoxFighting. Carlos has trained in Sambo under various instructors such as Evin Melacek and Chris Magyer. Carlos is also a member of The American Sambo Association. "

The classes are pretty small and these are the guys actually doing the teaching.  No understudies or brown belt instructors at all.

Last night... well, first off I have never wrestled a day in my life till Monday (2 days ago) and last night was Jiu-Jitsu/Sambo.  We studied some technique for the first hour and the second hour we split into two teams and had a semi-tournament.  I got submitted three times out of three but I got in quite a number of points with different mount and guard positions.  (Not tournament points, more like 2 points for top mount, 2 for takedown, etc...)

Fun but tiring.
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ChadTower

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #14 on: September 21, 2006, 09:19:25 am »

Sounds excellent.  Is there a website for that school?

NightGod

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #15 on: September 21, 2006, 09:22:59 am »
Just curious if you have any background in a more traditional martial art before you started taking these classes? While I don't nessicarily see anything wrong with learning a MMA/UFC fighting style, I think there's alot to be learned from taking a more traditional class, either before hand or in conjunction with your MMA training. You note in both cases with your teachers that they took this path.

Just a thought for you to consider as you begin your journey into martial arts.
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ChadTower

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2006, 09:27:33 am »

These are his goals:

Quote
My whole goal is to lose some weight and get in better shape.  Also, I hope to be able to confidently defend myself against an unarmed attacker.  I have never been so tired or so sore in my entire life.

Seems like what he is studying is perfectly in line with those goals.

shardian

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2006, 09:37:26 am »
It is not the goal of Tae Kwon Do to teach you to "whoop someones ass". It builds your confidence in yourself, and in a worst case scenario, you will be better equipped to defend yourself. If I got in a fight, the last thing I would be doing is throwing a back pivot kick...unless I really wanted the crap beat out of me. I studied under Grand Master Sok Ho kang. I got the biggest kick out of watching him work with little kids. They'd come in, and you just new their parents let them run over them. After a few classes, they listened, and actually stood still for more than 5 minutes.

It is well known that if a Tae Kwon Doe specialist enters the octagon, he better have his insurance premiums paid up. Jiu Jitsu owns that field.

Lutus

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2006, 09:44:30 am »
Yeah, the website is...

http://www.pmapanamacity.com/index.cfm?page=4

It is part of the bigger conglomerate http://www.pmaschools.com/

I live in Panama City, FL so there are a number of options but most all of them are taekwondo.  Eventually I would like to taekwondo but I will try my hand with the more "physically rigorous" first.

I doubt I will ever be confident enough to really fight in a tournament and if that means I won't gain a belt I don't really care.  I am not looking for accolades or bragging rights.  I suggested this class to another guy here at work and when I told him we train "no-gi" he said "but you don't look cool without the uniform".  I knew then that he wouldn't be a good match for the class.

I am 23 years old and in decent physical shape.  Very strong but little cardio stamina.


I also like the fact that the two styles are so different.  Me and one of my best friends would wrestle each other in college just goofing off and I noticed something which I didn't understand till now.  He has a good foot on my height wise and quite a bit longer reach.  I didn't stand a chance against him standing up, but if I could get him on the ground it evened things up because I was faster and more agile on the ground.  After a couple months of training when he starts his crap again... lol, I should be able to dominate him on the ground. 

The two different styles give you many more options for different opponents.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2006, 09:48:52 am by Lutus »
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shardian

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2006, 09:57:39 am »
The tournaments are super fun! I won first place forms in my division, and third place in sparring at the one I went to while I was doing it. the best part was watching the advanced blackbelt forms and sparring. It is basically all the instructors of the different schools going against each other.

ChadTower

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2006, 10:11:24 am »
Yeah, the website is...

http://www.pmapanamacity.com/index.cfm?page=4

It is part of the bigger conglomerate http://www.pmaschools.com/

This one is probably a half hour away from my house.  Nice.

Lutus

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2006, 10:29:45 am »
That picture of the instructor in the upper left hand corner of the home page...  :laugh2:

Now that I say that I realize he could probably kill me in under ten seconds.   ;)

I'm not sure if all schools will teach the same way, I am sure there are liberties that each instructor can take on the direction of training.  I know that the Sambo/Jiu-Jitsu coach of mine was actually doing his own thing in town until he teamed up with Sensei Dennis.

I am sure that once I become more confident I may take up the interest in tournament fighting.  But that is on down the road my friends!   :)
« Last Edit: September 21, 2006, 10:49:33 am by Lutus »
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lordtodd75

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2006, 10:30:51 am »
<quote> That's entirely dependent on the teacher, how they teach, and how you learn.  And there is no way a pure 3 month muay thai student defeats a TKD black belt.  The student wouldn't be able to get through the black belt's defense. </quote>

I suppose it could depend on those. But the comment about beating a TKD black belt was not hypothetical. My friends and I used to full contact spar and one of them is a black belt, and yes I beat him, convincingly. TKD defense is not made to defend Muay Thai, especially the round kick. But I am sure you knew that already  :laugh: plus the stance gives up the lead leg for a round kick. I could go on and on. TKD is good for discipline, exercise, and if you like doing katas  :P I respect all of the different styles/arts but as for self defense ,adaptability to style, exercise and self discipline, I believe Muay Thai comes out on top. I suppose that is why just about every MMA fighter cross trains in it.

I suppose I should admit that I had a couple of years experience in western boxing and that probably help my defense and footwork when I fought the TKD guy, but I dropped him with round kicks to the leg  ;D


Lutus

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2006, 10:33:43 am »
Those consistent round kicks to the thigh will wear you down pretty quick.
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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2006, 10:34:00 am »
Yep, into the martial arts bigtime.

I'm a Tae Kwon Do instructor, started training when I was 13. Haven't trained or instructed in years though. Had an all-ireland title and still have a rake of trophies for local + national level fighting, techniques and breaking.

Keep meaning to start back training again but the desk job has made me LAZY.

Dexter

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2006, 10:36:33 am »
I respect all of the different styles/arts but as for self defense ,adaptability to style, exercise and self discipline, I believe Muay Thai comes out on top. I suppose that is why just about every MMA fighter cross trains in it.

Muay Thai is for attack and fighting, from what I understand, while TKD is more focused on defense.  Right there, in a confrontation, philosophically it is a matter of time before the attacker finds a hole with which to get through the defense.

Quote
I suppose I should admit that I had a couple of years experience in western boxing and that probably help my defense and footwork when I fought the TKD guy, but I dropped him with round kicks to the leg  ;D

That experience would help a lot.  Plus it sounds like the guy didn't learn how to check a leg kick or at least stop taking them full force for no reason.  I'm not all that far into TKD and I do see the merit in what you're saying.  The other style I want to look into before really deciding which path to take is Jiu Jitsu.  This school is a 15 minute drive from my house.  Soon, probably in a few weeks, I'll get in on some of their beginner classes for Jiu Jitsu so I can make an educated decision.

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2006, 10:44:15 am »
Don't forget guys, theres two VERY different schools of TKD. Theres the mainly north korean ITF TKD thats more traditional/diciplined, and theres the south korean WTF which is more sport like, it's the one you see in the olympics. WTF is more bouncy hit and run, whereas ITF would be closer to traditional fighting martial arts.

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2006, 10:48:51 am »
Chad, that last website looks like they have a good BJJ (Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu) program.  Boxing is also only once a week (it's no muay thai of course but it is something).

If that's only 15 minutes from your house and you have the time, it is pretty fun, and really demanding during sparring.

Balance and control (escecially while standing) are essential in taekwondo for sure, wish there was more time in the day to do it all!!!
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Lutus

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2006, 10:52:15 am »
Dexter, in Taekwondo, how much abuse do you take from an opponent in training?

Is it all against pads and working on the "form dance" (not sure of the name, kata maybe?)

I guess my question is, how often do you get hit from an opponent in training? 

It would be difficult to be prepared for a "street fight" if you can't become accolated to being aggressive and performing while being pummeled.
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ChadTower

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2006, 10:54:04 am »
It would be difficult to be prepared for a "street fight" if you can't become accolated to being aggressive and performing while being pummeled.

Yes, it would be, and you've identified a key issue.  There is an unstated assumption at many schools that the assailant is going to be an untrained goon so even at half strength you'd be able to disable him. 

lordtodd75

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2006, 11:06:02 am »
@dexter: I wasn't aware of that and I am not sure which style my friend took.

@ChadTower: Mauy Thai is about attack and agressiveness, you are right about that. The problem with TKD defense as that, as far as I know, it is comprised of deflecting blows. Which has its advantages I am sure, but since Mauy Thai offense is made up of a lot of power attacks, deflection doesn't really work that well. The Thai guy will tend to blast through the deflective block. Just to let you know as well, Muay Thai is also very defensive it is just that muay thai defense is based on absorbing blows. While you do block, you absorb the blow with the block, so if you were watching two thai guys fight, it does look like they aren't really blocking anything or that the blocks look like they hurt. But that is where the conditioning comes in. Also, if you watch two thai guys in a tie up (plum) you will see just how much of muay thai is based on speed.

I don't want to get into a pissing contest about this. I know people get sensitive about there style, myself included. These are all opinions and I hope I am displaying them as such. Interested to hear what ChadTower and Dexter think about all this.

ChadTower

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2006, 11:33:16 am »

I agree with that assessment.  Not enough TKD students work on the less glamorous concepts like deflection.  They don't get all that tested on them during promotion tests and if you're only sparring half strength you don't need them in sparring.  You take a TKD student who has underdeveloped deflection techniques and stand them in front of a Muai Thai student and that TKD student will have a problem.  Especially if that TKD student has never taken a real leg kick.  That's an eye opener right there... or maybe a quad opener.

Lutus

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2006, 11:57:52 am »
Quad opener sounds like some time of bedroom maneuver!!   :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:
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shardian

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2006, 12:00:24 pm »
In our class, we did full-contact sparring in every class session. It was normal to go home limping or at least wake up with some good bruises. Did we stand around and kick the crap out of each other's thighs? No.

The most brutal sparring I ever saw was when blue belts tested for their black belt. They always had to fight the best black belt in attendance, and they did not go easy on them. I saw a dude almost get his head taken off by a junior olympian blackbelt from another local dojo. I would definitely say he earned his belt.

Lutus

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2006, 12:06:53 pm »
Good Shardian, I'm glad to hear that about taekwondo.  Will definently take some of that down the road!
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Chemixtry

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #35 on: September 21, 2006, 03:05:42 pm »
Talking about comparing styles and effectiveness - national geographic  did a program titled "fight science" to try to qauntify the effectiveness of each style. They had muay thai, tkd, boxing, jui-jitsu, and kung fu represented. They tested who had the most powerful kick and punch which was interesting. Boxers had the most powerfull punch at 1000lbs of force while muay thay had the sthrongest kick (it was a actually a knee) that the engineers said delivered the same type of force they see in 35mph car crash tests.  I think the test they did for jui-jitsu was stupid but it the first time I saw someone ascribe actual numbers.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/08/060814-fight-science.html

I love watching MMA and watch whenever I can wether its UFC or PrideFC. I wish I had more time to try it myself but my schedule is not consistent as a grad student. Sometimes I get stuck in the lab until late at night. :cry:
« Last Edit: September 21, 2006, 04:05:23 pm by Chemixtry »
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ChadTower

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2006, 03:06:37 pm »

Saw that.  Ironically enough, it was called Fight Science.   :laugh2:

NightGod

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #37 on: September 21, 2006, 04:07:55 pm »
My kids are in the WTF and I'd definately agree that it's more about forms and discipline than about fighting. They do sparing once a week (Olympic rules, full pads, but no holding back on blows (outside of the Master working with the lower belts, of course), which is good for their agressiveness, but I definately can't imagine them trying to fight in a full-contact/MMA type tournament. As I said, it's an Olympic sport, and is treated as such.

Our Hapkido is a handled differently, since that's all adults. The biggest problem with it is that the style has alot of locks and throws and, while you can train to absorb the blows of being thrown (though it's a ---smurfette--- if you land wrong, my shoulder is still sore six weeks after a bad landing), the locks you have to do at a reduced speed/power level because they're basically designed to break bones and dislocate joints. It's definately a defensive style at it's core, but has it's fair share of hard strikes and blows.
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Lutus

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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2006, 04:22:14 pm »
I saw "fight science" as well and it was the straw that broke the camel's back of me getting off of my butt and choosing something to do.  I chose Muay Thai and Jiu-Jitsu.

Did anyone else notice that they had a very rare and elusive "white ninja" as their subject?   :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2:
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Re: Started Kick-boxing MMA yesterday
« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2006, 04:23:50 pm »

Snake Eyes from GI Joe was busy that week.