Anybody know what is unique about the Sinistar controls?

[MPTech]

I've had my cab running for about 8 months and have had very little trouble playing most of the games I like.  I'm utilising an X-Arcade CP (it's really not too bad, but I wish I had found this site before I bought it. oh well ..... next cab!)
Anyway, I ran across Sinistar a couple nights ago and remembered playing it a few times, from my younger days.
It started ok, but I couldn't move about with the joystick, sit sit in 1 position firing.  I don't think this is the way I remembered it!

Do I have the wrong joystick or is a setting incorrect?  like I said, almost every other game is great. no problems.

[ppilot]

I don't fully understand your post.  Sinistar uses a 49-way joystick, but it should play (badly) with an 8 way.  What does 'I couldn't move about with the joystick, sit sit in 1 position firing' mean?

[MPTech]

sorry, I'll try to explain better.

the ship doesn't move at all.  the joystick doesn't have any effect.
I can only get 1 button to fire (are there more buttons? I don't know)

the joystick works great for every other game I play

[Tiger-Heli]

First off, SiniStar used a very unique joystick - it was a 49-way joystick with a centering spider (sortof like rubber bungee) - See here for photos and exploded views: http://epg3.tripod.com/sinistar.html

RandyT (www.groovygamegear.com) sells 49-way sticks and interfaces, and both he and 1Up were working on making repro spiders, but I'm not sure that ever materialized.

What this means is - the 49-way is a crude analog joystick, meaning for each direction, instead of just Up or Centered, the Stick knew if you were Centered, 1/3-Up, 2/3-Up, or UP.  The centering spider meant that it was easy to move the stick in small motions, but harder to move it the further from center you went.

As far as MAME goes, short of a GP-Wiz49 and a real stick or a newer 49-way stick, you will probably get the best gameplay from an analog joystick (PC flightstick).  If you don't have one, you should be able to at least move the stick using an 8-way stick, but you probably have to go into MAME and tell it that for 49-way games you want to use the keyboard, but I'm not sure how to do this anymore.  You can probably find out at http://www.mameworld.net/easyemu/mameguide/mamecontrolini.htm

[Howard_Casto]

49 way games are mapped to the ad_stick. 

With respect mptech, learn how to use mame.  When you have control problems you generally want to try to fix them via mame's in-game settings.  You can remap anything to anything you know. 

But what the others said is true... sinistar is kinda crappy without a 49-way. 

[MPTech]

HC, thanks for the enlightenment.

With respect mptech, learn how to use mame

I thought that is what I was doing.
I did a google search and came up short and searched this site for similar questions, no explanation in the posts I read.
I don't know what a 49-way is, except that it is more than my 8-way(?) and not what I have or probably want to purchase for the few games I would need it for.  I know that there are ways around some of these handicaps, so I asked.  (if I didn't want to learn it, I'd be asking someone else to do it)

I have read everything I can find on the FAQs, MAME, MAMEWAH, emulators, etc etc etc, in fact, I print them and save them in a binder for off-line reviewing (quite a big binder!).  This site and the extremely knowledgable folks are the single best resource.  Sorry if some of the questions appear newbie, but I've only been at this for less than a year and I anticipate learning for a very long time.

I truely appreciate the help here.  Thanks!

I guess I won't be playing Sinistar, and that's OK, now that I know the issue.  Next cab..............................................
 

[Howard_Casto]

Well I don't mean to insult you but if you have been doing this for over a year you are a pretty slow learner. 

I mean the first thing anyone would do when a game isn't responding to input would be to press tab and go into the games controls and see if anything is off. 

Don't act like I was being a jerk because I wasn't.  That was legitimate advice.  Knowing about the input menu is first day stuff. 

[Tiger-Heli]

I think HC's replies were a little abrasive.  The forum is here for people to ask questions.

Having said that . . .

I don't know what a 49-way is, except that it is more than my 8-way(?) and not what I have or probably want to purchase for the few games I would need it for.

Well, the fact that I explained it above and you still don't understand it is kinda discouraging.  You could also check out http://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/wiki/Joysticks#49-Way_Joysticks and the rest of the WIKI.

I guess I won't be playing Sinistar, and that's OK, now that I know the issue.  Next cab..............................................
 

You could always try it with either an Analog joystick or re-mapping the controls so the X-Arcade works with it.  It won't be arcade accurate, but if you've never seen it before . . .   Your choice, though.

[Howard_Casto]

I think HC's replies were a little abrasive.  The forum is here for people to ask questions.

Well you think wrong.   

This is a "teach a man to fish" forum, not a "give a man a fish" forum. 

There is a point where visitors should get their hands dirty a little and actually try to find a solution themselves rather than post a question immediately after something doesn't automagically work for them. Even the lack of mame menu knowledge aside, a person could get some info about sinistar's controls with a google search or a look over at klov.  If this was the guys first post, I would have been much nicer, but it's been a while he needs to be getting a grasp on the basics by now.   

I wouldn't have made it a point to say so except that you call my response abrasive in the first sentence, and then elude to what I was getting at originally in your next.

Nicer words don't change your meaning man. 

[MiKman]

Well I like to think I have been aound the block for awhile and believe it or not I am quite computer literate but I have no idea what HC is attempting to elude to with the following comment.

49 way games are mapped to the ad_stick. 

either way HC's posts generally come across as abrasive.  Not that he intends them to be.

[MPTech]

I do searches before I ask, but I'm not going to spend hours / days reading hundreds of posts. I have other things in life as well.  I thought the purpose of this forum was to share knowledge.  Others don't seem to be as "bothered" as you.

I believe you have assumed too much.
Do a Goggle search on Sinistar  or search this forum (I did) and tell me if you find the answer.  Just because it is a 49-way, doesn't tell me if I can get my joystick to work.  (btw, Tiger-Heli, I did understand your explanation and historical application in the Sinistar games (I didn't know that and it was interesting) what I didn't understand was if I could get mine to function like one).  This was the first game I tried playing (that I'm aware of) that requires a 49-way. I may come back and try re-mapping it later, but it's not worth the effort for this 1 game.  I was just asking.  And again, thanks for the information.

HC, ya know, I tried to be nice, but you are rather rude.  Not once, but repeatedly.
I've asked questions before and you do come across as very condescending.
I was appreciative of your assistance, but please don't belittle me.  (slow learner(?), this is really not a humorous comment to someone you don't know) (btw, I have a Masters Degree in Business & Information Technology and taught graduate courses as a professor at a top 100 University, in these disciplans for 5 years. I'm also a certified Project Manager Professional.  So go ahead and call me a slow learner, but pray to god you are never in a class I teach   .
I'm sorry if my questions don't challenge you or invoke a deep debate, I'm looking for simple answers so I can enjoy playing my arcade. 


Spending more than a few minutes (and I did perform my due-diligence in researching it) is not the best use of my valuable time.  I asked because I thought somebody may have already come across this. Just because I've been at this for almost a year doesn't mean I've spent every waking hour, absorbed in it.  100+ posts is 2 or 3 questions a week.  I work 60 - 70 a week and have a family too.  I also donate my time and perform charitable work.  Please don't preach to me about "teach a man to fish.....".

If I was lost on a road, after a few minutes (not hours), I'd ask someone in the area for directions, but I wouldn't ask him to drive me there.

I respect your knowledge, but not your tone.
I can only presume you are not mature enough to respect someone you haven't met in person.  I hope you aquire this skill as you grow older.  I speak to people all over the globe every day in my business and I never treat them the way you treated me. 

Treat others as you would have them treat you.

[u_rebelscum]

Well I like to think I have been aound the block for awhile and believe it or not I am quite computer literate but I have no idea what HC is attempting to elude to with the following comment.

49 way games are mapped to the ad_stick. 

It was in reference to the post prior to Howard's:

... get the best gameplay from an analog joystick (PC flightstick).  If you don't have one, you should be able to at least move the stick using an 8-way stick, but you probably have to go into MAME and tell it that for 49-way games you want to use the keyboard, but I'm not sure how to do this anymore.  You can probably find out at http://www.mameworld.net/easyemu/mameguide/mamecontrolini.htm

Mame generalizes all analog joysticks (flightstick, Hall Effect, 49-way, ect) as "ad_stick".  You need to know this (aka "what Howard said") if you want to used the ctrlr file like Tiger hinted at using.  You can also see this if you use the tab remapping as "AD Stick", or look in the listxml as "stick".


Now we get into opinion.  IMO, all games that used any type of analog input, including those catergorized as "ad_stick" in mame, suck with 8-way sticks (those on the X-arcade).  The X-Arcade so called "analog" mode doesn't help in mame since mame does the same thing in software already.  Some of these games are "playable" to some people, but it's worse than the original controls.  To me that means "sucks".

So back to the original question: you're using the wrong control.  Period, IMO.  But look at the prior posts for alternatives.

There are currently four games in mame that emulate the 49-way control, and about 10 more game that don't run on current speed PCs and/or the 49-way control is not emulated yet.  (hint: google "sinistar mame")

[MPTech]

very helpful u_rebelscum , THANKS!
Sounds like I would be disapointed if I did get it to work, so I'll pass for the time being.  But the information is good to know, and for anyone else that would be interested.  (btw, I didn't try Sinistar MAME, just Sinistar.

[Tiger-Heli]

I wouldn't have made it a point to say so except that you call my response abrasive in the first sentence, and then elude to what I was getting at originally in your next.

Nicer words don't change your meaning man. 

But they do make the reply seem less "abrasive."   

Example (to nobody in particular):  If I say:  "You're an eff-ing idiot" or "You lack the mental capacity to fully grasp the options presented to you", I've basically said the same thing.  Which would you rather hear?

[Tiger-Heli]

This was the first game I tried playing (that I'm aware of) that requires a 49-way. I may come back and try re-mapping it later, but it's not worth the effort for this 1 game.  I was just asking.  And again, thanks for the information.

It seems odd that you haven't run into this before - with analog stick (or similar games).  Try playing Star Wars or Spy Hunter or OutRun or Chase HQ with your X-Arcade, then with a flightstick, then with a 270-degree wheel, then with a true SW yoke.  For different people, each of these controls will or will not be acceptable.

For Sinistar, in order of increasing responsiveness, your options are (urebel - correct me if I am wrong):

1)  Use the X-arcade and map Map to use keyboard inputs.  You will be able to move the ship, but it will be either full speed or stopped, and SiniStar wants a fine level of control for accurate play, so you probably won't be happy.

2)  Connect a flightstick (cheap $10 PC Joystick) and map MAME to the AD_Stick output.  MAME now knows intermediate joystick positions, but you lack the centering spider, so gameplay may suffer.

3)  Rig your own centering spider to a flightstick (closer) - google or search the forum for Xiaou2 and Sinistar together for more info.

4)  Buy a 49-way stick and ideally a GP-Wiz49 for www.groovygamegear.com (or maybe Daveb's AKI or Ultimarc's A-Wiz).  This converts the input to analog but does a much better job than the flightstick.

5)  Add a centering spider (original repros are available) to the 49-way stick.

6)  Wire the 49-way stick directly to 7 (8?) inputs on a keyboard encoder and use a build of MAME (main build or certain version of Analog Plus ()) that directly supports it.  Absolutely accurate (assuming you also have the centering spider), but the stick will only work for SiniStar and Blaster and maybe two or three other games.

[Tiger-Heli]

(hint: google "sinistar mame")

(btw, I didn't try Sinistar MAME, just Sinistar.

Okay, MPTech, I'll probably end up regretting this, but I'll hold your hand one more time.

Urebel's comment was an imperative.  He wasn't asking what you had googled previously, he was telling you to google "Sinistar MAME".  Had you actually tried this, you would have undoubtedly found this page that he wrote, which has a wealth of information on how 49-way sticks work with MAME and Analog Plus.
 

[Howard_Casto]

I wouldn't have made it a point to say so except that you call my response abrasive in the first sentence, and then elude to what I was getting at originally in your next.

Nicer words don't change your meaning man. 

But they do make the reply seem less "abrasive."   

Example (to nobody in particular):  If I say:  "You're an eff-ing idiot" or "You lack the mental capacity to fully grasp the options presented to you", I've basically said the same thing.  Which would you rather hear?

Actually the first.  I'm a pretty smart guy so I get the meaning of both but I'd rather someone be straight forward with me.  Somone who is overly nice with their replies comes off as insincere in my book.  If abrasive is honest, then guilty.  I prefer "fired", not "down-sized" and I prefer "you suck at your job" rather than "you aren't giving us the productivity we hoped" myself.  Just to give examples in the workplace on how saying it the "less abrasive" way actually ends up pissing you off more. 

[Tiger-Heli]

Just to give examples in the workplace on how saying it the "less abrasive" way actually ends up pissing you off more. 

Good points, actually I like your straight-forward workplace examples better myself.