Assemble then Stain or Stain then Assemble?

[javeryh]

OK, I guess this thread is prompted by the "Can we talk glue" topic as the discussion has turned to staining techniques.  Anyway, I'd love to hear some comments from the more seasoned woodworkers around here...

I've been watching a ton of New Yankee Workshop (I Tivo all of the episodes!) and Norm Abrams is amazing.  I really pay close attention to when he stains the assembled project at the end of some episodes (how does he get it so nice?!?!?) but I think that I'm going to stain prior to assembly for my next cabinet build.  I think for someone like myself who is a super newbie at woodworking it will be the best way to get a smooth finish.  Are there any disadvantages (other than lost time) to assembling (with dados/biscuits/dowels or whatever), disassembling, staining and then reassembling? 

I stained my first cabinet - a cocktail - with 2 coats of stain and 4 coats of a poly finish and I noticed that the stain came out a little uneven in the corners and hard to reach places.  I applied the stain with a foam brush, let it sit for 5 minutes and then I wiped/blended it in with a cotton rag.  Gravity really seemed to have an effect on the finish.  The one piece that was stained and finished separate from the cabinet (the hinged side panel) came out PERFECT which is why I'm inclined to stain prior to final assembly.

I'm just curious to hear other people's thoughts I guess...

[AtomSmasher]

You'll find some peoples thoughts on this here:  http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?topic=56080.0

[Maverick]

Maybe a little research on staining techniques will help you. I always use Mineral Spirits to condition the wood prior to staining, it helps the stain to soak in more consistently.

[DrewKaree]

Here's what they DON'T show Norm doing.  Test the stain on scrap.  Do LOTS of tests, if need be.  See how the wood you're using affects the absorption of the stain.  Pine sucks it up like a drunk at an open bar, oak tends to be a bit more even (but it'll change depending on if it's red oak or "everyday" oak). 

If you want more even results, the best thing for you to look for is a gel stain.  It isn't as easy to appy, but it's anything BUT difficult, and I think you'll like the results. 

Another thing you might want to try is to get an old cloth (something like a t-shirt, nothing too thick like a towel, that'd be bad) and some rubber gloves.  Ball that up and dip it in your stain.  It'll apply the stain a bit more uniformly for you.  You may have to do one or more applications to get the shade you're looking for, and you'll DEFINITELY have to work faster than if you flooded the stain on with a brush, but it just might work better for you.

The "conditioning" Maverick is talking about is to help the wood accept the stain more evenly.  When you look at the wood, the growth rings won't accept the stain as readily as the softer wood between it, hence the different colors.  It can vary WILDLY depending on the wood (softwoods tend to vary more than hardwoods) but doing something like what he recommended will help even that out, which might have been the problem you experienced.

I have no idea where you live, but if there's a Rockler store in your area (or if a store happens to sell small bottles of the stuff), pick up a gel stain and test it out to see how you like it.  I have a feeling you'll find it to be a HUGE improvement over the brush-on type. 

[NightGod]

I've even seen that gel stain at Wal-Mart, it's not at all difficult to find.

[rdowdy95]

I am in the process of staining all of my pieces.  I stained the base part for he hell of it, and I will show you guys what is looks like when I am done.  I have put one coat on there, but I need to put another coat on it for the final.  I am using Minwax Polyshades Classic Oak Satin.  I love the color.  I am using Birch Plywood as well.  First what I did was use my Random Orbital sander with some 220 grit sanding disc to sand it.  That was the highest grit Home Depot had and I was pretty suprised cause man the wood is smooth after sanding.  Like smooter than a baby's bottom.  Then I wiped up all saw dust with my hand.  Use a paper towel though.  This will get much of the dust off.  To get the rest use a tac cloth.  You get those in the staining section.  Then I felt it made sure the tac cloth didn't leave any stickness on there.  Then I applied my first coat of stain with a staining pad.  Things went on real smooth.  Try to use a thin coat of stain.  Then when you are done get another stain pad, and wipe off the excess stain.  If you don't get will take longer to try and have a sticky heavy feel to it.  After it all dried about 6 hours.  I wait 8.  I went over there and touched it.  It wasn't that smooth.  So I got some steel wool 000 or finer, and I rubbed the hell out of the wood with it.  Rub where you feel the rough parts.  I did it all though.  Then when done wipe with a tac cloth.  This is going to leave alot of steel wool powder.  Kind of like saw dust.  Wipe real good.  I again used hand first, then tac cloth.  And the steel wool didn't like remove the stain like hard sanding would of done.  To my suprise being a rookie and all it is pretty smooth.  Smooth enough for my needs.  I will get you guys a pic in a couple of days.  Good stuff though!

[DrewKaree]

Use a Scotch-Brite pad instead of steel wool.  You're using a water-based stain, and any steel wool fibers you leave behind can rust, leaving little rust-colored flecks in your finish, requiring you to sand the crap out, possibly even needing to scrap the entire part.

Scotch-Brite pads come in several different "grits", and can even be used with a random-orbit sander (throw a high-grit piece of sandpaper on there to "hook" the pad, then just set it atop the pad and sand away).

Green, black, blue, and white (I think there's even a red/brown, but it'll prolly depend on your supplier). 

Also, the "return" button is your friend.  It breaks up long run-on posts and makes it easier for folks to read

[ChadTower]

Plus if you stain before assembly it will be awfully hard to fill and sand any screw/nail holes after you've already stained.

[rdowdy95]

The final way I did my stain was to use old Tshirt rags.  I squeeze out excess stain and wipe it on hard.  Now first I sanded with the Random Orbital Sander with 500 grit.  The sides of my Cab are smoother than silk.  Well maybe not that smooth.  Anyways after I sand the first coat on I take one of the sanding disc 500 grit and lightly sand by hand.  The parts I sand are only the parts that I feel are thick.  Like thick stain.  For the most part everything is still smooth.  Then I wait 4 - 6 sometimes I wait till next day whatever I feel like doing.  It turns out great though when the second coat dries.  Don't like the color put more coats on.  Don't flame me for this, but sometimes I don't want to work on the cab.  Sometimes I just want to play Xbox 360 or watch TV. 

I can't work on it as much as I want because I am the only parent when I get off work usually.  So me and my 2 1/2 year old usually shoot hoops or play trains.  Then when the wife gets home at 9pm from work he is in bed, and I am tired.  I work the normal 8 hour shift during day, pcik him up from family, play some, eat, play some more, bath, brush teeth, bedtime storys, sleep.  Then I sit on the couch and doze.

[prOk]

Staining before assembly is always ideal.. that way you avoid the 'side to side' motion that you would have to make in any corner so you can stay going with the grain. 

For the conditioning people mention, it's called 'sanding sealer' commonly.  Essentially it's just a seal coat to make sure the stain takes an even tone and not blotchy.  A good step, especially on cheaper plywoods or nicer woods with great variation in texture.

[leapinlew]

I've done 6 cabinets now, and I've always painted them. This last cabinet was small enough that I painted it before I assembled it and painting was so much easier and cleaner. It's easily my best cabinet so far.