Urgent job help needed ASAP

[Luxury]

Hi all.  I've got a question for you.  I was just offered a position at company A.  They called me on the phone and asked if I would make a verbal agreement to accept while I was still waiting on the paperwork to arrive to put it all in writing.  I did.

Not a few hours later, I get a phone call completely out of the blue from company B.  They really want to interview me.  I tell them that I just accepted at another company, and they say that I should come anyways.  They say that a verbal agreement means nothing.  So I do, have an interview and it goes great.  They offer me a job as well.

So now I have a dilemma.  I'm still thinking over which offer to accept, but I was wondering what you all think about my verbal agreement of joining company A?  I still haven't made up my mind on which company to work for, but is the verbal agreement I made a big factor?  If I turn down company A, will I be burning bridges (something I don't really want to do), or just how legalily binding is it?  If I did accept company B, could I get in trouble with company A?

I could use some of your expertise on such matters asap.  Anyone know anything concrete about a situation like this?

Thanks

[SirPeale]

What I've finally figured out, after many years and many jobs is...you have to watch out for number one.  That's you.

Forget all about the 'verbal agreements.'  So what if you don't take the job.  What are they going to do about it?  It's not like you work there yet, right?

You have to take into consideration what is right for *you*.  What pays you more?  Which is  closer to home?  Benefits package?

Once upon a time I did some temp work for an optical company here in town.  Literally a stones throw from my house.  Nice place.  The temp work ended, and the people in charge said "you should put in an application, we need someone like you here."  I took that to mean "the application is a formality, we'll hire you."  So when I got a temp-to-hire job at a bank, I figured I would be 'honest' and tell them I'd been offered a job with another company, so they wouldn't waste their time, and could get the position filled quickly.

Yeah, well...I lost that job, AND aparently there was no position at the optical place either.  "Oh, I hope you didn't think we were offering you a job..." actually, YES, I did, since you said as much!

Moral: look out for yourself.

[PCtech]

Peale is right.

Now this doesn't mean you are a jerk.  If Company B offered more money/better benifits, take it....or better yet, let them start bidding.

Verbal agreement doesn't mean crap...and you are NOT screwing company A by accepting a better offer. 

Don't think for a minute that if you accept a job w/ Company A, and they downsize, they will be thinking "is it really the right thing to do, to fire/lay off Luxury"...they won't think twice, it's all about he money.

The old saying "don't take it personally, it's just business" applies here.

If it makes you feel better, after getting details from company B, re-approach Company A, and say "Look, I'm sorry to have to say this, but I've been offered a (better paying/better benifits) at company B (don't use their name), see if they make you a better offer.

Nothing dishonest, or wrong about it.....good luck, let us know how it works out.

[CheffoJeffo]

I don't think you have an ethical or legal problem accepting with B. My father was recently in a similar situation and although he had verbally accepted a position with A, he actively pursued B,C and D. And he works in the realm of benefits and human resources. Much of what he said was very similar to what Peale and PCTech have said. As he pointed out, until that contract arrives, all bets are off.

Now, having said that, my own take on things might be a little different.

When deciding what is best for you, you need to consider how choosing B over A might affect you. TMK, A has no legal claim to you, but they WILL remember what happens (all notions of "it's only business" aside, to the person who wanted to hire you, it will be somewhat personal). If you are working in a small industry where everybody knows everybody, as I do, then you may well have to deal with some fallout in the future. This will depend on many factors, including the nature of the industry (if, indeed, you plan to stay in the industry), the amount of effort they put into finding you, etc. It may not be a big deal at all or it may be something to consider if you are looking at two evenly-matched positions.

If the offer from B is better (or if the position is just more attractive to you), then you should certainly explain to A why it is better and give them an opportunity to respond. I would do this in person, if at all possible. Treat them with respect (after all, they have invested at least some time, money and interest in you) and they're more likely to be sympathetic to your situation, which will go a long way to keeping bridges intact.

Oh ... should you eventually choose B over A, be sure to write a letter to A expressing your appreciation for their offer and understanding (even if they aren't very understanding) ... it will go in the file and may help you out in future dealings with A.

Good luck!

Cheers.

[Luxury]

Thanks for the feedback.   I had a feeling that this was sort of the case and after asking around with a few other people, the standard answer I've received has been "Look out for #1" over and over again.  I'll let you know what I decide. 

And good idea about the letter Cheffo.  I hadn't thought of that and I will definately be doing that.  Thanks!

[quarterback]

I'll go slightly against the grain here and say "put yourself in the other person's shoes".

Let's say you were an employer and you were on a job search.  You found somebody who you really thought was right for the job, you made them an offer, and they accepted.   Since it's going to take some time to get the paperwork typed up (your HR person is out sick) you ask the person to make a specific verbal agreement.  They say yes and you stop your interviewing process, calling back Hank, Willie and Waylon to cancel their interviews.

How would you feel as the employer when, the following week, you call to find out why the person hasn't yet returned the paperwork that you had FedExed to them and they tell you that they took another job?


In the end, the job you take is up to you and you should take the job you want.  But, IMO, you shouldn't treat people in any way that you yourself wouldn't want to be treated. 

If you're not sure you're taking the job with company A, you should let them know.     If you think it was ---smurfy--- for Peale's ex-temp-employer to potentially lead him on by implying something to him, then why wouldn't it be ---smurfy--- for you to knowlingly leave Company A believing something that's not true (that you are definitely taking their job)?

[Pi]

What I'm thinking about this is that company A or B or XYZ would give a damn about verbal agreement. Bosses do that all the time "yeah I'll give you holidays next month" "yeah I'll raise your salary next month" "yeah I'll change your contract to improve that" and then give you pathetic excuses or an outright "NO!" when the time comes, nitpicking every little letter of your contract or the laboral laws to mess up your life just so they can save another cent (or just for the evil of it). I agree with Peale that the number one is you. In these things, one has to be selfish, and in the case of companies and bosses, first they have to earn any kind of respect with proofs until you are bound to things like a verbal agreement.

And while I understand Quarterback's POV about employers, I'd say they are the worst part. The people working in Human Resources are in most cases "the enemy".

[CheffoJeffo]

In these things, one has to be selfish, and in the case of companies and bosses, first they have to earn any kind of respect with proofs until you are bound to things like a verbal agreement.

You see, that is the kind of thing that makes me scratch my head ...if you want to succeed in anything you do, you need to treat people with respect from the get-go.

"Need to earn respect" is an American film cliche -- you have to earn trust, respect should be a prerequisite.

Further, by ignoring the verbal agreement and jumping companies, you would be denying the company the opportunity to "earn" respect ... do you see the inconsistency ? If the tables were reversed and the company jumped ship, you would be screaming bloody murder ... kinda like Peale did above ...

To clarify, my advice was given from an employer's POV (it's been a while since I sat on the other side of the table) -- if somebody did what I suggested, as an employer I would be a little ticked off, but certainly would appreciate being shown respect, given an opportunity to respond and not rule them out them in the future.

Cheers.

[RayB]

Let's say you were an employer and you were on a job search.  You found somebody who you really thought was right for the job, you made them an offer, and they accepted.   Since it's going to take some time to get the paperwork typed up (your HR person is out sick) you ask the person to make a specific verbal agreement.  They say yes and you stop your interviewing process, calling back Hank, Willie and Waylon to cancel their interviews.

That doesn't happen! They'd still interview the other candidates just in case one of them is better qualified or willing to work for less.

How would you feel as the employer when, ...

"Feel"? A corporate entity has no feelings. THe people working there might, but so what? The "corporate entity" won't consider anyone's "feelings" if they need to save some cash by downsizing.

I understand you point of view, but it's completely unrealistic. There is no "other person's shoes". It's a COMPANY.

Cheffo's last comment says it best. Be diplomatic and communicate with Company A, but the final decision must come down to what serves the PERSON best, since they are the ones living their lives, not the employer.

[shardian]

When I got my job after college, I was faced with a similar problem. I accepted a job, took another interview for the hell of it, and actually was offered the second job. The second job did have better pay and benefits, but required moving, and would be longer hours, and a volatile environment (in my opinion).

It just came down to thinking about myself and where I would be happier. In the end, the closer, less paying job was better for me. I think I regretted the money for a day, but quickly realized I made the right choice. Money means nothing if you are miserable.

My advice is also consider the non-material effects of your job choice.
Either way, reconsidering a verbal is not a legal issue. Some companies would even respect you for being honest and telling them your situation. You should call them, explain your position, and see what they say. If they offer to match the other companies deal, then sweet! If they strong arm you, or say "oh well", then do you really want to work for them? This could be a great opportunity for you to find out where the company truly stands.
Good Luck!

[quarterback]

Let's say you were an employer and you were on a job search.  You found somebody who you really thought was right for the job, you made them an offer, and they accepted.   Since it's going to take some time to get the paperwork typed up (your HR person is out sick) you ask the person to make a specific verbal agreement.  They say yes and you stop your interviewing process, calling back Hank, Willie and Waylon to cancel their interviews.

That doesn't happen! They'd still interview the other candidates just in case one of them is better qualified or willing to work for less.

That's a false statement to say "this doesn't happen."  This does happen.   Maybe you mean to say "it's unlikely that this would happen", but to make a statement that it doesn't is demonstrably false.

How would you feel as the employer when, ...

"Feel"? A corporate entity has no feelings. THe people working there might, but so what? The "corporate entity" won't consider anyone's "feelings" if they need to save some cash by downsizing.

I understand you point of view, but it's completely unrealistic. There is no "other person's shoes". It's a COMPANY.

You are incorrect.  You seem to be assuming that this is a huge faceless unnamed corporation.  As far as we know, it's a 2-person mom and pop outfit who DOES consider how their employees are treated, who DOES have shoes.   Clearly things depend on the size of the company, but we don't have that information at this point.


I can tell you this, I've been on both sides of this situation.  I've been screwed by employers who told me I definitely 100% had the job and I've been screwed by employees who made verbal AND written agreements and then backed out on them for a 'better' position, leaving me high and dry in the middle of a job.

You can think that I'm crazy and unrealistic, but I believe you should treat people the way you'd want to be treated if you were in their position.  If you're not honest and straightforward with the people you deal with in the workplace  then you have no right to complain if they're not honest with you.

[Luxury]

Well, this morning I sealed my fate.  After one hell of a night weighing my options, I decided on company B.  I called company A and told them that another company had offered me a job and that I was leaning towards it.  She was hugely offended and brought up the fact that I had made a verbal agreement.  I apologized profusely.  She asked why I was going to go with the other company.  I said that it was based on location (15 min instead of 30-45), more creativity in the role (both positions were the same but B had a more exciting project to me) and other intangeble factors that I really can't put my finger on.  She then asked if she was to go back to the team and try to convince them to match or make a better offer, that I would reconsider.  I said no.  Money isn't that important to me, and even if they did offer more, I would still probably have picked B.  She was taking it all very personal and was angry.  I sincerely apologized and wished her and the team the best of luck.  They really were very nice people and if I were to pick one strictly on first impressions of the people I met, I probably would have picked A.

I then called and "verbally agreed" to take the position at company B.  I probably could have played them off each other, but I'm really not like that and would feel too guilty to do it.  I feel guilty enough as it is.  I would celebrate on the new job, but I think I'm too nice of a guy.  I just ruined some nice womans day and let a bunch of really good guys down.

Now I guess I'll wait by the phone for company C to call in the meantime.  Thank for the help everyone. 

[CheffoJeffo]

Ack ... ALWAYS let them try to come back with something (hence the "and give them an opportunity to respond"). It shows respect and willingness to work with them instead of just hosing them AND it doesn't cost you anything. You should not have presented it as a fait accompli, even if you believed to be. Present the situation and give them the opportunity to respond.

By saying that B was better and that A has no chance with you, you directly insulted A ... of course she was angry!

In the face of the insult, your apologies will ring hollow - they are going to believe that you played them and aren't trustworthy.

Hope it doesn't bite you in the future.

Good luck with the new job ... if THEY don't back out on you now ... oh, and write that letter, but do not mention company B anywhere in it -- no need to rub salt in the wound.

Cheers.

[Luxury]

Hell.  Now I feel even worse. 

I was thinking that the more time that they spend going back to the team and coming up with a new offer and then a few more days of negotiation just means less time that they could try to find someone else. 

[CheffoJeffo]

Hell.  Now I feel even worse. 

I was thinking that the more time that they spend going back to the team and coming up with a new offer and then a few more days of negotiation just means less time that they could try to find someone else. 

*I* feel bad ... maybe I should have bolded the text in my original posting ... I shouldn't have assumed that you might not see the natural animosity between competing employers, particularly if they are competitors in the marketplace (dunno if they are or not).

Having said that, I am betting it isn't the end of the world and a nice letter in about a week's time will help to some degree (but I wouldn't apply for a job at A anytime soon!). If this is the biggest thing you have to worry about, then you are way ahead of the game.

And, really, best of luck and congratulations on the new job (I missed a smiley in my last post!)

Cheers.

[Luxury]

No need for you to feel bad.  I just should have paid more attention to what you were saying.  I'm not really one to have a plan of attack and I usually just shoot from the hip with everything I do.  It's a pretty bad way to do things admittedly, but it usually works more often then not.  But it's all a moot point now anyways, as it's a done deal.  I'll definately send a letter though.  Another person mentioned flowers as a joke.  Haha. 

But anyways, thanks again for all the help (even if I didn't heed it).  I really appreciate it.   

[PCtech]

Good luck at your new job.

Sorry to hear that Company A was upset, but that's life in the real world....They'll get over it...

[RayB]

You can think that I'm crazy and unrealistic, but I believe you should treat people the way you'd want to be treated if you were in their position.

OK Jesus. Meanwhile back in reality, we're talking about a person's livelihood. He doesn't owe Company A jack ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- until papers are signed and he is "an employee". You're telling me that if company B offers double the salary, he should go with Company A just to be sure no feelings are hurt? WHOA....

[Dartful Dodger]

You can think that I'm crazy and unrealistic, but I believe you should treat people the way you'd want to be treated if you were in their position.

You're telling me that if company B offers double the salary, he should go with Company A just to be sure no feelings are hurt? WHOA....

You can think that I'm crazy and unrealistic, but I believe you should treat people the way you'd want to be treated if you were in their position.

You're telling me that if company B offers double the salary, he should go with Company A just to be sure no feelings are hurt? WHOA....

I think he only has a verbal agreement with B also.   

B might find someone better/cheaper than him before they commit to him and they can just as easily retract their verbal agreement with him.

If he upset A enough, or made A feel like if they hire him he will just work until company C comes along.

You do need to lookout for yourself, but you also need to treat others fairly too.

That being said, I don't think this situation wasn't  handled badly, I think the woman you were talking to may have just burnt the bridge to the other guy they were interviewing(just like there is always a plan be company, there are always a plan B employee) and now she's upset.

Hopefully the guy they turn down at company A, isn't taking your job at B.


I would have stalled officially committing with A until I signed the papers with B, but that's just because I'm a d!k.

[JackTucky]

If COmpany A found a better candidate while they were typing up the papers, they would have told you to take a walk.

Now, just hope Company B comes through....

Jacktucky

[RayB]

You do need to lookout for yourself, but you also need to treat others fairly too.

I agree. One needs to be diplomatic, yet still make the best decision for themselves, even if it means renegging on a verbal agreement.

[PCtech]

So, Luxury....How's the new job going?