Announcement: Ultimarc does it again!

[Xphile]

It's Ready!

http://www.ultimarc.com/avgainf.html

(could've been in "monitor/video", but this is front page news:-)

[ripzone]

Yes, the new ArcadeVGA card is out!

[toilet]

Nice job Ultimarc. Any word on Linux support? I don't see it on the FAQ, but for some reason remember it being mentioned a while ago on the unofficial BYOAC announcement thread.

[Eddie Lukin]

Wow, that is very cool. Personally, arcade-perfect authenticity does not matter much to me, but I am very impressed by this work.

[Brax]

Yeouch.

That works out to $175 Canadian delivered. Its a good solution but it sure isn't a cheap one.

[Lilwolf]

You think the prices are to high?  I think they are hands down worth it!  Remeber hes buying them from someone else, then burning a new bios and placing them on them.

Man the money I would have saved if this was out a few years ago!  (I wasn't willing to give up windows to use my arcade monitor!  Back then you had to unless you where going to use some !@# up old PoS video card...)  But not now!

I can't wait to hear how they look!  (and Oscar, is it about time for an updated picture for your monitor compare section).

[eightbit]

Yeouch.

That works out to $175 Canadian delivered. Its a good solution but it sure isn't a cheap one.

Its not fair to blame the high price on the Canadian exchange rate. Andys going to make the same profit either way.

[Brax]

I can get the Radeon 7000 its based on for 60 dollars Canadian.

$115 more for a "bios upgrade" is quite alot.

[eightbit]

I can get the Radeon 7000 its based on for 60 dollars Canadian.

$115 more for a "bios upgrade" is quite alot.

Hmmm, I can get the Radeo 7000 for $30 with free shipping. http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproduct.asp?description=14-140-008&refer=pricewatch  
$69 US seems steep for a simple bios upgrade but if I was going to go arcade monitor which I might since I'm trying to buy one right now then I'll order one of these.  Its not so bad when you consider the alternatives, what alternatives were there again to make Windows work on an arcade monitor?

[OSCAR]

...and Oscar, is it about time for an updated picture for your monitor compare section.

Will do.  I think my card may have shipped last week, so I should be getting it any day now.

BTW, isn't there more to the card than a simple bios upgrade?  It seems that by the info on the product pages, the card is a dual-head that also supports s-video out, and it will also provide +5V on pin 12 (for video amp).  The dual arcade monitor/svga monitor sure seems like a good idea, especially if you have to troubleshoot something.  Perhaps these were features that were available on the standard 7000, but I'm not sure.

[RandyT]

Will do.  I think my card may have shipped last week, so I should be getting it any day now.

BTW, isn't there more to the card than a simple bios upgrade?  It seems that by the info on the product pages, the card is a dual-head that also supports s-video out, and it will also provide +5V on pin 12 (for video amp).  The dual arcade monitor/svga monitor sure seems like a good idea, especially if you have to troubleshoot something.  Perhaps these were features that were available on the standard 7000, but I'm not sure.

All of those features were available on some version or another of the 7000, with the possible exception of the +5v line. Pin 12 is usually reserved for plug and play monitor ID, either as in input or bidirectional depending on the method used.  It's probably bi-directional and pulls the line high after monitor ID.

 I believe the 7000 was also known as the VE before ATI went to the numbering scheme.  The VE stood for "value edition".  The numbers weren't necessary at that point in time because there was only one real Radeon and the VE was changed to 7000 as newer Radeon cards became available.

I'm going to venture a guess that you would at minimum need to customize the BIOS, replace the oscillator and tweak the drivers.  Still not a small feat, and I imagine there are royalties to be paid for the development work.

RandyT

[Jakobud]

Wow Andy is gonna sell a TON of these things.  What a great product  Good job Andy!

[generousben]

u guys crack me up........

all you do is moan.
you spend years trying to work out who to display mame 32 at 15k.

spend loads of money on 31khz arcade monitors,mess around with scan converters and come up with countless numbers of stupid ways to display mame, u even stick $300 tvs in your cab.

then finally a gfxs card comes out that takes all the hassle out of it and lets u use a  old $20 arcade monitor to perfectly display your games and all you do is moan about the price .

and say how easy it would be to make

haha!
if its so simple and only takes a bios upgrade then how come u dum yanks havent come up with it years ago.

somtimes u lot are so full of b/s

[Minwah]

Well in England the cost is

[eightbit]

u guys crack me up........

all you do is moan.
you spend years trying to work out who to display mame 32 at 15k.

spend loads of money on 31khz arcade monitors,mess around with scan converters and come up with countless numbers of stupid ways to display mame, u even stick $300 tvs in your cab.

then finally a gfxs card comes out that takes all the hassle out of it and lets u use a  old $20 arcade monitor to perfectly display your games and all you do is moan about the price .

and say how easy it would be to make

haha!
if its so simple and only takes a bios upgrade then how come u dum yanks havent come up with it years ago.

somtimes u lot are so full of b/s

I sense a little hostility. No reason to be insulting a whole country because you didn't bother to read the thread carefully Don't you think your being a little harsh and a little unfair. Do you consider Canadians yanks? The only one in this thread complaining about the price was a Canadian. Every other post that mentioned price said that the price was fair or more than worth it.

[generousben]

 

i knew someone  would come straight back at me about the Canadian thing .

[Brax]

Well guess what?
CANADIANS AREN'T AMERICANS.

And you know what? It IS expensive. Saying it isn't doesn't make it less so. I didn't say it wasn't worth it but it IS expensive.
The end.

[Anonymously]

I think $89 bucks is not a bad deal at all, specially for people that DOESNT want to tweak around their Video card or risking the damage that can happen to their monitor.  It just the old supply and demand concept.  I would certainly ordering mine soon cause with this new Video card can certainly save a lot of headache (and money) I encountered making mine to works.

[AndyWarne]

Whooaa guys, I would just like to get one thing clear.
This is NOT just a BIOS upgrade! This is the result of 6 months hard work and liason with Taiwan manufacturers to get a custom card produced. (If you want to try flashing this BIOS into a normal Radeon 7000 card, do it and see what happens!) Yes of course the BIOS is different (in fact VERY different) but so is the hardware. It happens to be based on the R7000 chip for a number of reasons but is not a normal R7000 card.
I could not really believe what I read on this thread about the price. I think I have managed to keep the price down to a very reasonable level considering the functionality and the time-saving it gives and the massive amount of work that went into it. If you go into a UK retail store you would pay not much less for a normal Radeon 7000 based card.

[Firebaall]

Very cool!

And what timing!

I have a 25" Pentranic 1025 arcade monitor, so from my understanding with the breakout vga cable I should be able to directly connect this video card to the 5 pin video connection?



After I replace a few of the leaking caps, this looks like the best solution for my first cab!  Video amp needed?


Any idea when a review will be posted?

[generousben]

"CANADIANS AREN'T AMERICANS."

and ur point is?

[eightbit]

I could not really believe what I read on this thread about the price. I think I have managed to keep the price down to a very reasonable level considering the functionality and the time-saving it gives and the massive amount of work that went into it. If you go into a UK retail store you would pay not much less for a normal Radeon 7000 based card.

Sorry if we insulted you by oversimplifying the accomplishment. I've heard the talk about the work that has gone into this over the past few months and know that it was significant.

Andy you did great work on this. Hopefully you are successfull with this card and we can look forward to even more innovative new things from you. From a consumer standpoint we can only benefit from more choices. Everyone in this thread said that you card was worth it. Even the one guy that was complaining about the price. So keep up the good work!

 

[nipsmg]

OK this is a really sad question coming from me (especially cause I've been reading these forums more or less for 3-4 years)  anyways.. here goes:

The arcadeVGA works w/ a 15khz arcade monitor.. What exactly is a 15khz arcade monitor? I mean I've heard of different types of arcade monitors (e.g. Standard Res, Medium Res).. I'm guessing this means a medium res monitor?

Also, What type of game would a compatible monitor come with (If I was to go into a distributor today and say "I'm looking for an empty <insert game here> cabinet, what woudl I ask for?).  

I've been putting off finishing my cabinet for a while because i don't want to take the downgrade in quality that a TV gives (unless I get a good one w/ component or scart (in the US, good luck w/ scart)), but I haven't wanted to spend the $400+ it's gonna take to get an arcade monitor that reliably runs windows.

Andy, GREAT JOB on the card.. My order's coming on friday! (unfortunately, I have to wait till payday  )

--NipsMG

[RandyT]

u guys crack me up........

all you do is moan.
you spend years trying to work out who to display mame 32 at 15k.

Actually, I've never tried, but I know what it takes to do it.  The only question I personally have regarding the design is, if this is a grand departure from the hardware reference design of a standard Radeon 7000 based board, and it is designed specifically for connection to an arcade monitor, then why does it require a video amplifier for proper output levels?  But seeing that we "dum yanks" aren't that smart, please try to respond at our level.

spend loads of money on 31khz arcade monitors,mess around with scan converters and come up with countless numbers of stupid ways to display mame, u even stick $300 tvs in your cab.

Those $300 TV's do a very nice job, and individuals with limited space can also watch TV on them. Those 31khz arcade monitors are beautiful.  I'll bet vector games look great on a low-res arcade monitor (not).
I'll take a 31khz monitor any day for that application.  Not to mention, normal Windows displays.

then finally a gfxs card comes out that takes all the hassle out of it and lets u use a  old $20 arcade monitor to perfectly display your games and all you do is moan about the price .

and say how easy it would be to make

haha!
if its so simple and only takes a bios upgrade then how come u dum yanks havent come up with it years ago.

somtimes u lot are so full of b/s

In "yank english" dum is spelled with a "b".  As for why no-one has done this before, the reasons are simple.  The market for this type of product is limited and has only recently begun to expand.  In short, it takes quite a monetary investment, and the return on it was/is uncertain.  I have personally dealt with Asian electronics manufacturers, and can tell you that there are usually rather large (but reasonable) up-front design fees and minimum orders that are usually around 500 units.  Even if these cards cost $30 each (low estimate), thats $15,000.  Add in a grand or two for custom software and it's even more (possibly, some will "roll that into" the cost of a minimum production run.)  So the price is quite understandable.

So in short, for those that need a product like this, it's well thought out and reasonably priced.  Those people should be grateful that someone went to the effort to support their needs.

For those that are taking a different approach to their project, none of this will matter one way or the other.

RandyT

[RandyT]

The arcadeVGA works w/ a 15khz arcade monitor.. What exactly is a 15khz arcade monitor? I mean I've heard of different types of arcade monitors (e.g. Standard Res, Medium Res).. I'm guessing this means a medium res monitor?

Also, What type of game would a compatible monitor come with (If I was to go into a distributor today and say "I'm looking for an empty <insert game here> cabinet, what woudl I ask for?).  

A 15khz monitor is known as "Standard" or CGA resolution.  It also happens to be the same frequency as your television set (but your TV uses interlace by default to give higher apparent resolution)  The advantage of a standard-res arcade monitor is the ability to run it in "low-res" mode, which is non-interlaced (no-flicker), and provide a more pure color signal through separate RGB and sync inputs.  

EGA is "mid" or medium-resolution and scans at 25khz.  This isn't what you are looking for if you want to use this new card.

As for what games use what type of monitor, you'll have to do some digging on the unit in question.  Go to the klov site and it will tell you what type of monitor the machine in question uses.

RandyT

[generousben]

answers for highly intelligent  yanks  
1.i dont think u need a video amp if u use a hantarex or w/g monitor only if your monitor requires 5v.
2.why would you want to watch tv in an arcade cab?
ITS AN ARCADE CAB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
3.vector games look ok 2 me but then again there all pants anyway
4. windows displayed uninterlaced at 736x288 looks amazing on a 15k

[RandyT]

answers for highly intelligent  yanks  
1.i dont think u need a video amp if u use a hantarex or w/g monitor only if your monitor requires 5v.

Most of the old $20 monitors you referred to earlier will require 4 volts.  The newer ones will work at 1volt (VGA is 1v peak-to peak) to 4 volts.  I expect there will be some tweaking to do at 1v, but that should be minor on the ones that can support it.  My point is that if ALL arcade style monitors support 4volt inputs (and they do for backward compatibility) then I would expect a card with hardware specifically designed for that purpose to use that output level.  Those with older monitors need to factor in the cost of the amplifier or suffer a weak picture.

2.why would you want to watch tv in an arcade cab?
ITS AN ARCADE CAB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just because it's an arcade cab, doesn't mean that it lives in an ARCADE!  These go in people's bedrooms, dens, living rooms, basements, etc... that might have limited space.  You should know about limited space, living on an island and all   (kidding!)

3.vector games look ok 2 me but then again there all pants anyway

Ok, is not necessarily good.  The ability to show vector graphics is as important to some as bitmaps.  And not being Scottish, I like pants quite well, thank you (Kidding again)

4. windows displayed uninterlaced at 736x288 looks amazing on a 15k

Amazingly large and blocky, perhaps (errr...not kidding)

RandyT

[generousben]

i live in Indonesia most the time about 14,000 islands .


736x288 looks much beter then u would think(looks beter than i ever thought it would)

its basicly 800x600 but since its on 15 instead of 31k

the 600 is cut in half so its only displays 288 lines.
hence all pull down menus are cut off at the bottom.
its not blocky just a lower res.
try it and see.

[RandyT]

i live in Indonesia most the time about 14,000 islands .

Heh.

736x288 looks much beter then u would think(looks beter than i ever thought it would)

its basicly 800x600 but since its on 15 instead of 31k

the 600 is cut in half so its only displays 288 lines.
hence all pull down menus are cut off at the bottom.
its not blocky just a lower res.
try it and see.

Sounds like reading smallish text would be a nightmare.  At least an interlaced display attempts to show you the pixels, even if it is interlaced.

Got a screenshot?

RandyT

[generousben]

these pics dont look 2 good  because there on sonys image station.
the text is as clear as svga. but at a lower res.
there is no colour bleeding at all and its all really sharp.

[RandyT]

Ok, not as good as a 31.5khz monitor and a little elongated, but definitely better than I expected.  I'm assuming you have the font size cranked up as well, but it looks very usable.

I'll concede on this one  

Thanks for taking the pictures.

RandyT

[generousben]

font size?
no every things standard.

[SONIC]

Heh! Weirdly enough my fonts in windows look kinda bad... quite unreadable somehow... ie. not as sharp as yours look... mostly looks like some heavy interlacing...

In mame I set the font size to 14, which looks really fine

And for the card, damn, looks pretty darn interesting... as things are now I first get a clear picture when windows has booted, which means while it's in dos it looks fooked!!!

Must say, I'm pretty tempted to buy that card sooner or later... even though my TNT2 plays it all nicely I want to know if that card runs it better

Quote from the movie Operation Takedown (hackers 2); "I just have to know."

[AndyWarne]

Most of the old $20 monitors you referred to earlier will require 4 volts.  The newer ones will work at 1volt (VGA is 1v peak-to peak) to 4 volts.  I expect there will be some tweaking to do at 1v, but that should be minor on the ones that can support it.  My point is that if ALL arcade style monitors support 4volt inputs (and they do for backward compatibility) then I would expect a card with hardware specifically designed for that purpose to use that output level.  Those with older monitors need to factor in the cost of the amplifier or suffer a weak picture.

The Wells-Gardner 7000 series (which are most of those old monitors) are specced at 1v - 5v volts input.
There are several reasons why the 1 volt output.  The overall cost works out less with a separate amp compared to building it into the PCB. Remember the VGA signals are derived from a chip that runs at 3.3v and it's not a simple case of revising the output circuitry, it would need a "proper" amp on the board. Also, it would make it incompatible with the J-PAC.
Can I just say I don NOT endorse any of the hostile comments made on this thread. In fact I wish the whole thing could be deleted actually.
 

[dhansen]

Don't take the comments to heart.  Not all BYOACers feel this way, you provide kick---I'm attempting to get by the auto-censor and should be beaten after I re-read the rules-- products at reasonable prices with unparalleled support!  What else could anybody want?  When I think of all the time and hassle I went through with vsyncmame, advance mame, TSR's, etc.  I'd have paid twice the price for this card!

Bravo Andy!

Doug

[RandyT]

The Wells-Gardner 7000 series (which are most of those old monitors) are specced at 1v - 5v volts input.
There are several reasons why the 1 volt output.  The overall cost works out less with a separate amp compared to building it into the PCB. Remember the VGA signals are derived from a chip that runs at 3.3v and it's not a simple case of revising the output circuitry, it would need a "proper" amp on the board. Also, it would make it incompatible with the J-PAC.
Can I just say I don NOT endorse any of the hostile comments made on this thread. In fact I wish the whole thing could be deleted actually.
 

I hope you don't see my comments as hostile, they were not intended as such.  They were made in response to a poster who's comments insulted virtually everyone who didn't see the world his way and implied that your fine product was something that no-one on this side of the "big pond" was capable of doing.

I also defended (and still do) the price tag on the card and tried to show a basic idea as to the costs involved just to get something like this manufactured, and that doesn't even begin to cover the time, effort and expertise required.

My comments about the output level revolve around that fact that I have had a couple of old arcade monitors that worked poorly at VGA output levels.  Had I known about your very reasonably priced video amplifier circuit, I would not have been so quick to discard them several years ago.  But obviously, there is a need for such items for those types of monitors, as two of your other products are designed to address this.  Your reasons for taking the route you did are very sound and perfectly understandable.

Again, for those that need a solution to drive a 15khz monitor there is absolutley no better option than your card, and like I said before, those individuals should be grateful that you made the investement in money and effort to provide them with a simple solution.

Best of luck with your new product  
RandyT

[generousben]

when i said  old $20 15khz monitors ,
i was meaning 1-10 year old used 15khz monitors.
i wasnt really meaning  20 year old ones.
used 15 khz monitors have very little value in the uk.

They were made in response to a poster who's comments insulted virtually everyone who didn't see the world his way and implied that your fine product was something that no-one on this side of the "big pond" was capable of doing.

thats not what i was implying at all!!!!!!!!
in laymens terms:

i didnt see how people could
turn round and slag something off for being over priced and then say how easy it would be to make?
if u think u can do beter do it yourself.
then u wont have to pay the shipping!

Again, for those that need a solution to drive a 15khz monitor there is absolutley no better option than your card, and like I said before, those individuals should be grateful that you made the investement in money and effort to provide them with a simple solution.

er.....ist that what i said when i was insulting everyone?

anyway the bars open now so im off to get unconscious  .

[AndyWarne]

:  I hope you don't see my comments as hostile, they were not intended as such.  They were made in response to a poster who's comments insulted virtually everyone who didn't see the world his way and implied that your fine product was something that no-one on this side of the "big pond" was capable of doing.

Randy, I was not aiming these comments at yourself! I was referring to a posting which was made by someone who happens to be on the same side of "the pond" as myself, who-, in a misguided post, ended up insulting a whole sub-continent! This is not in order on this board!
Mind you do agree with him one one point: I am off to the pub too!

Andy

[PoDunkMoFo]

CANT WE ALL JUST.....HATE THE FRENCH?

[Xphile]

YAY! Franch surrenders!  

(always wanted to say that here..:-)