Bush's plan for stemming illegal immigration

[ChadTower]

So, I was reading the other day in my local paper about Bush visting the Mexican border, watching Border Patrol do their jobs, etc.

[Stingray]

He doesn't really want to keep illegal immigrants out. If he did that who would do the lawns at his ranch?

-S

[ChadTower]

Goats.

[Goz]

He doesn't really want to keep illegal immigrants out. If he did that who would do the lawns at his ranch?

-S

Maybe he could hire an Aussie... I hear they work cheap. 

[ChadTower]

Seriously, I say build a giant wall with hidden, floor switch activated trebuchets.

Manage to get to the top of the wall, step on that hidden plate, SPROING you're 500 yards back into Mexico.

[AtomSmasher]

building a big ass wall the entire length of the border would cost a hell of a lot more then a few hundred night vision goggles.

[ChadTower]

How do you keep an eye on a couple thousand miles with a few hundred night vision goggles?

These people are coming over the border to work supposedly, right?

Hire them to build the damn wall.

[Stingray]

building a big ass wall the entire length of the border would cost a hell of a lot more then a few hundred night vision goggles.

Yeah, but then you don't get the trebuchets.

-S

[Zero_Hour]

Big Walls defending borders went out of style with the Maginot Line.

[Ed_McCarron]

I had heard rumors that they wanted to hold the 2010 Olympics in Mexico - but everyone that could run, jump, or swim was already here...

[ChadTower]

We're not defending against a military attack here.

We're defending against unarmed people walking.

[Stingray]

In that case how about a ditch full of alligators, sharks, pirranah, and and tape loops of one of Bush's speeches?

-S

[ChadTower]

No, I still want the trebuchets.

[Stingray]

Well yeah, obviously I'd never eliminate the trebuchet option.

-S

[fredster]

I think we could keep them out if we really really wanted to. 

Send enough of them back and we could make a dent.  We'd have to hire a lot of people and open a lot of detention centers, but we are getting good at that.

Bush is just plain wrong on this one. We don't need "guest workers" either. It's screwing it up for all of us in about 500 ways to have all of these illegals here.

I don't buy, not for one second, that these people "do what American's wont".  I have a real problem with that. The real translation of that is "These people will do what American's won't for that amount of money".

For the right amount of money, people will do anything.  Look at the game shows.

If nobody was at the field to pick the tomatoes, would it rot? No. They would pay more money and people would come and do it.  They won't do it for $5, but they might for $10. They might have to pass on the price. 

This labor is artificially keeping prices lower and wages lower.  It's wrecking havoc on the health care system, the prison system, the welfare system and bunches of other "systems".

These people actually OPPRESS the rest of us and cap our pay.  I think the Liberals should see that for what the effect is, increasing the gap between the rich and poor and making the middle class smaller.

 I think you could make a court case on it.

Build a wall, build an army of robots, make a clone army, whatever.  I think the border situation is the worst disgrace we face in America today.

[Grasshopper]

Big Walls defending borders went out of style with the Maginot Line.

Yes and IIRC Ghengis Khan just travelled around the great wall to invade China.

A wall across Mexico would cost an absolute fortune and would still have to be patrolled.

The problem is that Americans don't want to pay taxes and you get what you pay for. If you want small government you have to make do with infrared glasses.

[Zero_Hour]

Send them back and others will come. Why? Because there are U.S. Citizens willing to employ them. Start making that an unprofitable endeavour and see how the flow slows.

And we had "Guest Workers" from the start of WWII until 1964, so it's really not a new idea. Personally I don't think it's a good move. As much as we need the border patrol, we also need the illegal employee patrol too. Deporting illegals is fine, but until those employers making it worth their while to risk the trip across the border are punished, I really don't think we'll see an end to the issue.

[vader]

I wholeheartedly agree with every word Chad said in the above post

Tim

[fredster]

Yeah, we have had "guest worker" programs before, but not for 11 million people.

Send them back and others will come. Why? Because there are U.S. Citizens willing to employ them. Start making that an unprofitable endeavour and see how the flow slows.

Word!

[Stingray]

I wholeheartedly agree with every word Chad said in the above post

Tim

Yeah me too. What this country needs is more trebuchets.

-S

[duffjr]

nobody's kicking them out once they're here.  what's the point?  they just did a good job on my outside tile and the basketball hoop he put up is great.

[ChadTower]

Sure, Genghis Khan went around the Great Wall, but at what cost? 

Anyone who could find a way around something like that should be welcome into the country.  That person is motivated and capable.

Give the guy $100 and an application for citizenship.

[Havok]

Unbelievable...

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."

Ever heard of that phrase? Let's just take down the statue of liberty right now...

At times I am embarrassed to be American.

 

[ChadTower]

All of those are welcome if they plan to support themselves.

I am all for accepting ANYONE who will be self sufficient.

It is not the self sufficient that are stopped by a wall across the Mexican border.  The self sufficient would find another way, or come in legally, through the guarded gates in said wall.

Nowhere on the Statue of Liberty does it say "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free so that I can financially support them, feed them, house them, and provide health care for them."

[DrewKaree]

I think we SHOULD be given all those people, but they should have to live on Ellis Island.

A wall would work, or better yet, we could build a few military bases there.  It'd have the added benefit of better training.  Then we wouldn't NEED the border patrol....oh wait, I just listed the reason why....government workers would be downsized 

[nostrebor]

Nowhere on the Statue of Liberty does it say "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free so that I can financially support them, feed them, house them, and provide health care for them."

Great truth spoken above.

Those tired, poor, huddled masses that were referred to on said statue plaque had to pull themselves up just like those of us who originated here. I'm gettin tired of pulling up the bootstraps of others, who are more than willing to let me do their heavy lifting.

This statement applies to real live Ameedican slackers as well. (Except Stingray, of course.)

[ChadTower]

When that statue actually meant something, such gov't programs did not exist.

They were needed and good when they were implemented.

Now, they are no longer good and aren't needed nearly as much as those who would keep them believe.

Unfortunately, no politician ever gets elected by taking things away from people.

[dmsuchy]

Chad, we have a wall, actually a 10 foot dual fench with barb wire that runs from the pacific ocean all the way through Imperial beach CA. The problem is that they blow uo whole sections of it with dynamite, which you can buy over the counter in any hardware store. If you build a 10 foot thick concrete fence they would blow that up also, or they would tunnel under it like they already do in many places. Plus after all this weather latley Americans will be streaming into Mexico "The Day After" style. When I worked for BP back in 96, I seen some creative ways determined people have of EWI, entering without inspection.

[Grasshopper]

Unbelievable...

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."

Ever heard of that phrase? Let's just take down the statue of liberty right now...

At times I am embarrassed to be American.

 

Hey give Chad some credit. He's willing to let in one of the worst tyrants in history and give him $100 because he's "motivated and capable".

Chad, I'm really struggling with your logic (and not for the first time). Illegal immigrants don't come to the US to see the tourist attractions. They come to work (albeit illegally). So they are by definition self-sufficient.

[ChadTower]

Erm, it takes quite an effort to blow through a 10' thick piece of concrete.

[dmsuchy]

I feel sorry for the poor shmoe that fills out the proper paperwork to imigrate to the US and has to be put on a 15 year waiting list because of his countries influx of illegal aliens.
Havok, your just being crazy, and we should rip down the statue after all it was france that gave it to us.
Chad, you have some wild ideas but none of them will ever come to light because of cost, after all we are the country that pay 448 bucks for just a hammer, right?

[Crazy Cooter]

If you get caught employing people without green cards... you should get sent out too.

Then maybe we'd get somewhere.

[duffjr]

ha, my friends at work got paid like $1000 a month for working 12/6.  i think mcdonald's has a similar payscale too.  they all had to live together to afford housing.

[ChadTower]

Chad, you have some wild ideas but none of them will ever come to light because of cost, after all we are the country that pay 448 bucks for just a hammer, right?

Erm, that only happens so they can divert funds to secret projects... seriously, don't you think if that were REALLY happening, some Senator would expose it and use it to make himself a hero?

[Crazy Cooter]

Illegal immigrants don't come to the US to see the tourist attractions. They come to work (albeit illegally). So they are by definition self-sufficient.

Except they don't pay income taxes, so they get government stuff for "free" (term used somewhat loosely).  That's part of the reason they can work for less money.  Without paying federal & state Income tax, it's like they make ~25% more than they are actually paid.  That's kind of what fredster brought up about artificially keeping wages down.

[fredster]

This is not the point -

Unbelievable...

"Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free."

Ever heard of that phrase? Let's just take down the statue of liberty right now...

At times I am embarrassed to be American.

This is a misguided viewpoint, very very misguided.

I don't have anything against people coming into the country. No problem at all with the Mexican people.  What I have a problem with is that they do it illegally.  We have no control, and we don't do any background checks.

Its not the immigration that's the problem, it's the UNCONTROLLED immigration that's a problem. 

The tax issue is not the problem, or at least the main one.  It's all of these people running around and just doing whatever they want and we can't do a thing about it.  We can't find them when they break the law, we can't identify them, they are wrecking havoc on our justice system and our support systems.

Not only that, it's a serious breach of our sovereignty.  I don't know of any other country that has a problem like this of this magnitude.  11 million people that can basically drive without licences, break laws and NOT be arrested. It's not fair to the rest of the people that actually legally came to this country.

It's a slap in the face to the people that came here and followed the law.  It diminishes the good Mexican Americans that did what they were supposed to do.  When you see an Mexican American, you probably think he's here illegally. Will he be treated with the respect he deserves or will people just try and pay him low wages?   It's also a slap to people like Chad who came here from other countries .

nobody's kicking them out once they're here.  what's the point?  they just did a good job on my outside tile and the basketball hoop he put up is great.

Also, if you hired them to tile and do whatever, you could have hired an American, so there's an american out of a check.  That money you gave for tiling may (and I don't know) go to mexico to prop up their economy and not ours. 

If you looked around for somebody to tile, and this guy was 5% cheaper than the american, you just kept wages down and sent money out of the US.

Not only that, you throw your hands up and say "wadda ya gonna do?"  It's okay to break the law, put people out of work, and excuse yourself from any responsiblity. 

It's a part of the problem part of the solution thing don't you see?

[ChadTower]

It's also a slap to people like Chad who came here from other countries .

In the interest of full disclosure, I was born a US citizen by parentage, so I have never had citizenship issues in the US.

And to address the "they do work" point, when I talk of self sufficiency, part of my definition is that they are doing it legally.  Working illegally, receiving unpaid medical care, bogging down public aid systems (welfare, food stamps, section 8 housing) without being legally here... these things are NOT part of self sufficiency.

Here in New England we don't get many Mexicans, legally or illegally.  Maybe they don't like the winter, or there are closer places to go.  What we do get are huge amounts of illegals from Puerto Rico, Dominican Republic, Haiti, places in that region.  We also don't have the vast amount of nonmonitored field style work that other parts of the country have so you can't just pick up a truckload of illegals to do a day's work.  Unfortunately, what we do have, at least in MA, is probably far worse.  We have a ridiculously forgiving and uncontrolled welfare and housing assistance system.  You don't have to be here legally, you don't have to work, you don't have to even comply with the program requirements.  I used to see it firsthand... you'd have 3 families in one state paid 3 bedroom apartment, all receiving welfare and food stamps, half the adult residents with nonreported jobs, no intention of becoming legal residents or of contributing to society.  When some official finally catches wind of it and sends a person to investigate, the families just pack up and head right back to their country of origin, having lived a far better life in MA off the state for several years without contributing a thing.

My mother had friends who worked in one such offices and the stories they would tell boggled the mind.  One in particular sticks out.  We had one woman who had been on benefits for years, didn't speak a word of English and seemed particularly slow.  It would take them months and months to get any single piece of documentation or response from her and when they did it was never complete.  She would say to a translator in broken Spanish that she didn't understand.  Well, one day after about 8 months of trying to get one piece of paper from her, one of the new social workers says, "what the hell, this woman must be a total idiot" out of frustration.  Inappropriate, yes, but the woman responded by turning around with a "how dare you" and a 30 second articulate tirade about how the worker had no right to insult her.  In English.  That's only one individual but stories like that were far more common than one would want to believe.

Now, I'm not against assistance programs.  Sometimes people need them.  What I am against, strongly and always will be, is assistance programs being available to people who are not AT LEAST legally documented residents.  Can't speak for the rest of the country, but here in MA, if you got rid of just that you would have revamped and dramatically improved the entire state assistance program.

Unfortunately, in MA, that is just the tiniest of drops in the bucket in terms of our state gov't, and no politician will ever dare try to do this.

[duffjr]

i'm a capitalist.  if a white guy is going to do my tile, put up a bball hoop, and paint everything for less than 500, i'm all for it.

[ChadTower]

What do you do when that alien slices off two fingers while trimming some tile in your bathroom?  How about if he starts a fire?  He's not insured, you know.

[fredster]

i'm a capitalist. if a white guy is going to do my tile, put up a bball hoop, and paint everything for less than 500, i'm all for it.

I don't blame you.  But did you try and see if there was somebody who would do it for that?  If you made the attempt to find another contractor who would you may have found it.

We aren't doing these people any favors either.  They don't live like the domesticated Americans do by and large.  They are used to having 50 people in a house with only one bathroom, etc.  Most Americans won't do that.

[Harry Potter]

What do you do when that alien slices off two fingers while trimming some tile in your bathroom?  How about if he starts a fire?  He's not insured, you know.

Bury him in your back yard and hire another one.

That's what we do here.

[RayB]

Do illegals really use welfare, health care, etc systems? Seems to me they'd prefer to stay away from any sort of government systems for fear of being discovered and deported.

[ChadTower]

Do illegals really use welfare, health care, etc systems? Seems to me they'd prefer to stay away from any sort of government systems for fear of being discovered and deported.

But they don't get deported even after being discovered.  It is nearly impossible to have someone deported until they have been convicted of a crime.  And when the end game is to go home when the benefits run out, deportation isn't much of a problem anyway.

Another thing we should do is stop allowing illegals into public education.  My graduating class had like 35% who didn't graduate because they never intended to do so, they were just there as a requirement of public assistance programs... nevermind that they were 20 in 11th grade.

[Stingray]

Another thing we should do is stop allowing illegals into public education. 

We're not allowed (it's a law) to even ask if they are legal citizens. In their defense, a pretty large percentage of south of the border immigrants (be they legal or otherwise) do graduate high school. Many of them move on to vo-tech programs.

-S

[Crazy Cooter]

Do illegals really use welfare, health care, etc systems? Seems to me they'd prefer to stay away from any sort of government systems for fear of being discovered and deported.

Hospitals are required to fix you up no matter if you have insurance or not.  You don't even have to have an ID.  There's actually kind of a waiting list to get deported.  They give you enough warning that you can move somewhere else.  As long as you don't decide to start following the law, you won't get sent away.  Not to mention if you are deported, you just cruise back in a couple weeks.

I don't care who comes here so long as they follow the same stupid rules I have to.  Everyone should have to pay for their kids in public schools, pay to repair the roads they drive on, etc. etc.

FWIW, I want to kick people that use the term "undocumented worker".  They're "illegal aliens", "Illegal workers", "illegal immigrants", whatever.  But "undocumented" blurs the truth.  Nobody talks about "undocumented sex offenders" or "undocumented drug use".

[fredster]

Do illegals really use welfare, health care, etc systems? Seems to me they'd prefer to stay away from any sort of government systems for fear of being discovered and deported.

Well YAH.

They have medicade ("emergency medicade") that pays for births and heart attacks, they use child food stamps, etc.  The use enough services to cause New Mexico and Arizona to declare a state of Emergency.

The don't get deported, and that's why Bush is WRONG on this. They simply keep comming in.  Without order, without sorting.

[ChadTower]

The Google banner in this thread almost made me wet myself I laughed so ---smurfing--- hard.

[RayB]

Hospitals are required to fix you up no matter if you have insurance or not.

[nostrebor]

i'm a capitalist.  if a white guy is going to do my tile, put up a bball hoop, and paint everything for less than 500, i'm all for it.

If the non-white guy was bonded, insured, paid his taxes, and was not being supported by our welfare system while receiving $500 (presumably) cash to install your tile and bb hoop, the price would not have been $500.

If our government wasn't being run by a bunch of pantywaist babies, they would enforce laws that made capitalists criminally responsible for employing $500 immigrants, while allowing hardworking honest citizens to foot the bill. Of course, step one would be to get the folks running the gov. to stop using illegals to install their tile and bb goals.

[DrewKaree]

The Google banner in this thread almost made me wet myself I laughed so ---smurfing--- hard.

It's blocked and I'm about to format so I can't be troubled to unblock it.  Someone snap it and attach it.

[ChadTower]

Did they require cash up front?

It is now against the law for hospitals to report unpaid bills to credit agencies.

[ChadTower]

It's blocked and I'm about to format so I can't be troubled to unblock it.

[DrewKaree]

Hospitals are required to fix you up no matter if you have insurance or not.  You don't even have to have an ID. 

You sure about that? Cuz when I visited an ER back in '95, they charged me a grand.

They still HAVE TO treat you.  Also, what difference does it make if they would charge them?  What're they gonna do, make 'em wash dishes to work off their bill?  The same thing that folks are talking about will happen.  The cops will be called, they'll issue a citation, tell 'em to appear in court, they'll not show up....and so on, and so on.

They can issue you a BILL, but they cannot force you to pay before leaving the hospital, and once they've left the hospital, there's not a whole lot they can do to get their money....well, not a lot that would affect an ILLEGAL immigrant, since they aren't following the law anyway.

[RayB]

Did they require cash up front?

It is now against the law for hospitals to report unpaid bills to credit agencies.

[ChadTower]

I'll assume you were responding to me.

[RayB]

But unless they said "you will be turned away untreated", it's basically a bluff.

[nostrebor]

Worst case is the hospital turns them into a collection agency and kills their credit (if legal in that state). Now if I paid no taxes, worked for cash, mooched off the govt, and basically was ready to go back to sunny wherever if I got busted, would I really care about my lousy credit score. You can't even garnish an illegal, because they are not in the system.

So the outcome is that they charge ME more to cover the costs of the care provided to non-paying, non-citizen.

My grandfather used to joke when he went into the hospital that they would put the "gold" band on his arm. This allowed the hospital to charge his insurance and Medicare for the delivery of no less than 7 "mexican"(his word) babies. While it was said in jest, the truth lurked quite close. My insurance rates prove it out.

[ChadTower]

Worst case is the hospital turns them into a collection agency and kills their credit (if legal in that state). Now if I paid no taxes, worked for cash, mooched off the govt, and basically was ready to go back to sunny wherever if I got busted, would I really care about my lousy credit score. You can't even garnish an illegal, because they are not in the system.

Credit scores are tracked by Social Security number, which of course an illegal alien would not have.  They are untrackable in this manner and thus even in those states where hospital credit reporting is legal, they cannot be reported.

[RayB]

Credit scores are tracked by Social Security number, which of course an illegal alien would not have.

[duffjr]

Did they require cash up front?

It is now against the law for hospitals to report unpaid bills to credit agencies.  The result of this, practically, is that a person who does not want to pay faces zero consequences for not doing so.

na, you pay them after the job is done.  like 90% of all home labor is done by them.

[duffjr]

i'm a capitalist. if a white guy is going to do my tile, put up a bball hoop, and paint everything for less than 500, i'm all for it.

I don't blame you.  But did you try and see if there was somebody who would do it for that?  If you made the attempt to find another contractor who would you may have found it.

We aren't doing these people any favors either.  They don't live like the domesticated Americans do by and large.  They are used to having 50 people in a house with only one bathroom, etc.  Most Americans won't do that.

are you kidding?  150 hours of labor for 500...  all the major contractors have illegal workers.  you do have your occasional mom and pop op.

[Crazy Cooter]

RayB, you messed up by giving them your real name.

A big part of the SS# thing is when employers don't bother to look at the card.  You just grab a # out of thin air and start using it.  It's very very tough to get caught using a fake SS#.  When was the last time any of you got that statement that shows how much earned income was "credited" to your SS#?  Last one I saw was about 3 or 4 years ago...  as long as they use it just for employment and work seasonally, they never get caught.  It's common for several illegals to all be working from the same SS#.  If you're legal but have family members who aren't... just "loan" them your number.

[fredster]

are you kidding?  150 hours of labor for 500...  all the major contractors have illegal workers.  you do have your occasional mom and pop op.

THEY TOOK UR JOBS

[duffjr]

na, ebay created jobs for them.

[fredster]

THEY TOOK UR JOBS

[ChadTower]

na, you pay them after the job is done.  like 90% of all home labor is done by them.

I own a house and have never had illegals working on it.  Every contractor I have ever had has been asked to present proof of insurance and licenses...

[duffjr]

southern california...the project manager is legal, but the rest aren't.

[shmokes]

It's wrecking havoc...

Wreaking.  It's wreaking havoc.  Rhymes with sneaking.

[fredster]

It's wrecking havoc...

Wreaking. It's wreaking havoc. Rhymes with sneaking.

BUT THEY TOOK UR JOBS

[shmokes]

Trust me Fredster, trying to appear thick is entirely superfluous.

[DrewKaree]

...is entirely superfluous.

On the plus side, you get a cape and tights to go with the outfit. 

Fredster - SUPERFLUOUS MAN!  DA DA DAAAAAAA!