Gas prices revisited

[ChadTower]

So, I hadn't bought any gas for a while... I guess my wife filled up my car the last couple of times and I only have to do it once every couple weeks at the most.

I was pretty shocked to see it sitting at 2.01/gal.

What are other people paying?

Same question, heating oil... seems around 2.39/gal here right now.

[SirPoonga]

It's been $2.25 for the last couple of days.

[Stingray]

$1.92 this morning.

-S

[missioncontrol]

$2.11

[Stingray]

Same question, heating oil... seems around 2.39/gal here right now.

Missed this part. I don't use heating oil, I use propane. I had the tank filled a few days ago, best I recall it was $2.11/ gal.

-S

[whammoed]

Same question, heating oil... seems around 2.39/gal here right now.

Missed this part. I don't use heating oil, I use propane. I had the tank filled a few days ago, best I recall it was $2.11/ gal.

-S

Did you get any accessories to go with that propane?

[shmokes]

I think about $2.30 here.  I don't even look at gas prices.  My wife watches them religiously, though.  I'm getting a Prius next year, though.  There's an incredible tax break coming up starting Jan '06.  About a $3000 credit for a Prius.  Not a deduction, a credit.  So your tax return will be $3000 bigger or your tax liabilities will be $3000 lighter for buying a Prius.  It used to be a $2000 deduction (which just makes it so you don't pay taxes on $2000 of your income) and that was set to go down to a $500 deduction in '06, but the changes were made in the most recent energy bill.  It completely erases the premium I would pay for getting a hybrid over a conventional gas-engine car, and I'll get 60 MPG to boot.

And there's lots of geeky stuff to like about the Prius.  For example it senses a three foot radius around the door and if the key is within that area it will put the door in "unlock standby".  When in unlock standby, if you touch the contacts on the back of the doorhandle, the door will unlock automatically.  Same for the ignition.  Once in the car it senses that the keys are in the car too, so you just push the start button to turn it on.  So you never have to take the keys out of your pocket/purse.  You just have to have them on your person.  Cool.

[Stingray]

Same question, heating oil... seems around 2.39/gal here right now.

Missed this part. I don't use heating oil, I use propane. I had the tank filled a few days ago, best I recall it was $2.11/ gal.

-S

Did you get any accessories to go with that propane?

[hank]Yep.[/hank]

-S

[ChadTower]

It used to be a $2000 deduction (which just makes it so you don't pay taxes on $2000 of your income) and that was set to go down to a $500 deduction in '06, but the changes were made in the most recent energy bill.

[Stingray]

Shmokes, I didn't know about that $3000 credit coming up next year. The wife & I have been thinking about buying a hybrid. That extra $$$ may be enough to make us actually do it.

-S

[fredster]

Something is wrong.

[ChadTower]

It would definitely offset the extra cost of purchase.

Too bad you can't tell how long that giant battery you're sitting on will last... some day 5-6 years, some say 10.

[fredster]

The more of them there are, the cheaper it will be.

I just wonder where we are going to toss them when they are dead.

Probably in my back yard somewhere.

[Havok]

---daisies---! Gas prices in New York are still up there. Just dropped to $2.39 a gallon...

[ChadTower]

The more of them there are, the cheaper it will be.

To a finite end, but the point is valid.

This isn't like voting, though.  I don't have an extra $4000* to spend so that there will be one more on the road.


*random number pulled out of ---my bottom--- meant to represent increased price + increased cost of maintenance over the life of the car

[MameJunkie]

FYI on the $3000 hybrid credit.  They limit it to I believe first 50,000 or 60,000 cars per manufacturer.
IE all good japanese cars will hit it in the first 6 month and the other crap will take a few years.

[ChadTower]

How are you supposed to know that bit of info?

Erm, damn, you told me I could have the credit but gave me car # 60003!

[Ed_McCarron]

You just have to have them on your person.  Cool.

So when the carjacker throws your body in the trunk, the car will still go.  Cool.   

[brophog]

The real problem with most alternative energy sources, particularly non AC sources is one of BTU's.

It generally takes more BTU's of energy to produce the item (including refining and other means of extraction) than what said item produces.

Except, conveniently, crude oil and similiar. Of course, that's why we use them!

[ChadTower]

Damn british and their thermal units.  They started this whole mess.

[Crazy Cooter]

FYI on the $3000 hybrid credit.  They limit it to I believe first 50,000 or 60,000 cars per manufacturer.
IE all good japanese cars will hit it in the first 6 month and the other crap will take a few years.

So that's what?  About a billion dollars in lost tax revenue?  I should buy one and sell it the next day... should come out ahead... and hopefully not be seen in it  .

[fredster]

$3000 X $60,000 = $180,000,000  0.180 billion.

That's how the government encourages something, but giving tax breaks.  And vice versa.

If the technology gets a foothold, then we can make it more affordable.

But that is a good idea about buying one and selling it.  That would work.

[ChadTower]

Except for that bit about the 15% depreciation the second you drive off the lot.

[Crazy Cooter]

$3000 X $60,000 = $180,000,000  0.180 billion.

For each manufacturer.

Ford, GM, Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Volvo, Saab, BMW... They may even do Honda & Acura as seperate, Chev & GMC, etc.  How many manufacturers have hybrids?

[ChadTower]

Certainly not all of those listed.

[RandyT]

It's nice to know that Uncle Sam is giving my tax dollars to people who are in the financial position to even be able to buy a new car while they make it increasingly difficult, in a land where public transportation is mostly a myth, for the lower income folks to drive back and forth to work to stay off the dole, which would end up taking even more of my tax dollars.  I have no problem with a deduction as an incentive, but giving the car companies 3k on every sale is making me reach for the pepto...

However,  it will be pretty funny when the folks who bought into Hybrid technology realize that it was just a poorly performing interim step designed to boost waning motor vehicle sales, and that the $3000 they thought they saved gets eaten up by the maintenance costs on the things.  You might as well just buy a 3 cylinder, gutless GEO and skip all that short-lived "feel-good" stuff in between.  The net result will probably be close, if not the same.  But you probably won't be able to brag to your country club friends about the GEO you just bought 

My opinion on the Hybrids is that they will only slow down the progress of finding a real solution, which will be alternative fuel systems derived from renewable sources.  They make it look like someone is doing something about the problem, but it's really just a band-aid that you and I will be paying for...again and again.  It also will end up giving the oil companies a scapegoat for the next round of price increases: "All the Hybrids the government subsidized into the marketplace has reduced the volume of our gas sales, so we need to jack the prices up to make ends meet.  And BTW, Uncle Sam, could you give us a giant tax break because it was YOU who was responsible for doing this to us in the first place."  Accckkkk!

As for gas prices, the "supply and demand" model doesn't even come into play.  I watched gas prices drop 20 cents on the day the companies stood before congress!  I guess the demand went way down because everyone stopped driving that day to watch it on CSPAN.

I hear lots of people talking about "capitalism" and the right to "make money" and normally I would wholeheartedly agree.  But in this case, we are literally talking about the life-blood of nearly every person and company in this country being controlled by companies who don't compete against each other for sales because they don't need to.  And they all show mind-numbing profits in a time period where they claim their refining capabilities were hammered.  I don't even know how that works outside of "bizarro world".....

And I love the argument about "gas being cheap here compared to other countries."  So what?!?   An apple costs $5 in Japan, does that mean we should be happy to pay $4 for one here in the US?  Other countries have cheap, accessible and mostly convenient public transportation that is probably subsidized to some extent by those high gas prices.  Here we just subsidize some jerk's 5 million dollar a year paycheck (before bonuses, naturally.)

I can't do anything about any of this, but man can I complain! 

RandyT

[pointdablame]

$3000 X $60,000 = $180,000,000  0.180 billion.

For each manufacturer.

Ford, GM, Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Volvo, Saab, BMW... They may even do Honda & Acura as seperate, Chev & GMC, etc.  How many manufacturers have hybrids?

I think the only companies with hybrid vehicles currently are Toyota, GM, Ford, and Honda.  And I'm sure they won't count say Chevrolet and GMC as seperate companies, it just doesn't make sense.

[HaRuMaN]

Gas just hit $1.83 here...   

[shmokes]

It's 60,000 per model, not per company, so we are probably talking about billions of dollars.  And the $3000 doesn't go into the pocket of the automaker; it goes into the pocket of the consumer, except to the extent that it encourages people to buy hybrids which are more expensive than a non-hybrid car that is exactly the same in every other way.  But the profit on a Honda Civic Hybrid and regular Honda Civic is probably nearly identical.

Also, FYI, it's not a flat $3000 credit on any model.  It's based on a formula that takes into account how much gas is saved compared to a non-hybrid model of the same car from 2002 or something.  Anyway it makes hybrid SUVs like the Ford Escape get some of the sweetest tax break deals.  The Honda Accord hybrid, however, which only gets about 5 mpg better than the non-hybrid version, only gets like a $300 or $600 tax credit.

I know that Honda, at least, is sensitive to the maintanance concern with the new hybrid technology.  That's why they put a 10 year warranty on the electric motor and battery.  Dunno Toyota's policy.

And, frankly, I have a hard time thinking I'm going to be particularly disappointed ten years down the road when fuel cell vehicles become available.  If I'm still driving my Prius in ten years it'll have 350,000 miles on it.  I don't think I'll feel particularly duped if I have to buy a new car to move from a hybrid to a fuel cell vehicle.  What I think will be funny is when all these people who bought into gas and deisel realize that those were just poorly performing interim steps...

What's wrong with an "interim step" anyway?  The Prius averages 55 mpg.  A gas car of similar size/weight/power gets 40 at best.  Probably more like 31 or 32.  That's pretty significant.  That's at least the difference between a gas-guzzling 15 mpg SUV and a 30 mpg economy car.  Complaining about an interim step is like suggesting that it's retarded to give Kevlar to the military because it's just a poorly performing interim step before we have nano-cloth that can detect gunfire and constrict its fibers to catch bullets, yet will otherwise be very light, plyable, breathable and comfortable. 

It seems to me that this interim step is all we are currently capable of and that it actually makes a pretty big difference in gas mileage.  Sure, you can't get into a hybrid for under $15,000, but fuel cells will be the same early in their lives.  It's takes time and economies of scale to bring the price of any technology down.  Poor people will be buying dirt-cheap hybrids when people with more money are plunking down for fuel cells.

[shmokes]

Oh yeah....and I've come to the conclusion that the 60,000 number's purpose is just a "buy American" campaign, since there will be a sudden incentive to buy American about the time Toyota's Prius and Honda's Civic reach their 60,000 each (which they would reach even without the tax break).  Kinda smart and subtle, I think.

[Jess--]

I still laugh when I see you guys complaining that you are paying around the same for a gallon of petrol as we pay here for a litre

[ChadTower]

I didn't know about the ten year warranty on the electric components on a Civic.  That does address one concern.

Of course, I'm very shy about ever buying a Honda again after going through the stolen car dance too many times with my Civic.

[Minwah]

I still laugh when I see you guys complaining that you are paying around the same for a gallon of petrol as we pay here for a litre

Yeah it's sickening isn't it...

[Havok]

I didn't know about the ten year warranty on the electric components on a Civic.

[Minwah]

Quantity discount, baby - happens in retail, too!

Nout to do with it, we just get ripped off for everything.  Probably because we are paying for everyone else's problems most of the time.

I'm in an 'I hate being alive' mood so please ignore where neccessary 

[Stingray]

I still laugh when I see you guys complaining that you are paying around the same for a gallon of petrol as we pay here for a litre

Yeah it's sickening isn't it...

Of course you guys can go to the hospital without having to file for bankruptcy.

-S

[ChadTower]

Not that anyone will treat them at the hospital, but they can go there just the same.

I wouldn't want a Prius.  One altercation with a regular vehicle and you're people pate.

[Stingray]

Not that anyone will treat them at the hospital, but they can go there just the same.

No one will treat you here either, unless you have great insurance or happen to be independantly wealthy. Difference being that it doesn't cost anything to be ignored over there.

-S

[ChadTower]

No one will treat you here either, unless you have great insurance or happen to be independantly wealthy. Difference being that it doesn't cost anything to be ignored over there.

Unless you count the 5 figures of taxes you pay to provide the nonservice.  At least here you pay for services you use.  There you pay for services you may ask for at some time in the future but probably will not receive.

[Stingray]

Why am I arguing about medical care in a thread about gas prices? It's not like I even care.

-S