My Kid's school

[fredster]

I have an 11 year old. He's a good boy, gets straight A's. I'm real proud of him.  Tears me up in deathmatch in Halo 2. Best I've seen.

The school has been doing some weird things this year.  I'm not a religious guy, not at all. I don't practice any type of religion, even anti-religion.  I don't encourage/discourage it at home either.

But this year, the school has passed out "Free" books on "the myth of evolution". Some group that was sanctioned, they did ask for permission first. Last week he brings home a bible that was passed out in the hallway. Some "group that makes bibles for hotels" he tells me. Ok, I'm all for free books. But today, he also tells me his Guideance councelor has told him there is no Santa Clause.  Says it was a myth.  This woman starts the day with a prayer and all.

What do you guys think? Don't you think that's a little odd? I don't remember that way back when I was a kid.

[RayB]

Does your kid's school name start with the letters "S", "t" and a period? If so, no it's not odd.

But otherwise if it's supposed to be a public non-denomination school, then it's alot more than odd. It's crossing boundries they shouldn't be. Just replace "bible" with "koran", and see how much of a fuss would be raised. You have every right to raise a fuss too, but you will not have the same kind of support you would have if the group in question really were handing out the koran.

And don't look at it as "free books". There's an ultimate purpose to why they are giving them out. If you want your kid raised according to those beliefs, that's fine. But otherwise why should you tolerate this? They could just as well be handing out "WatchTower". Do you want your kid to become a door-knockin Jehovah?

As for books on Evolution being myth. That's clearly propaganda. It's one thing to stay neutral and teach that it's a theory we can't accurately prove, but to call it myth is dismissing it even as a theory. You really need to find out what the f*** is going on at that school.


PS: 11 is a little old for a kid to believe in Santa. They did you a favor in that case.

[shmokes]

See Fredster, I've gotta say....you've always been totally accomodating on this issue.  We get in arguments on these boards about stuff like Christmas and school prayer and pledge of allegience with "god" in it, and you've always taken an attitude of, "It's totally benign.  They don't mean any harm."  But this is what you get with them.  What's happening at your kid's school should seriously disturb you. 

And you'd be naive to think that as long as you're clear with your kid your influence will trump theirs.  I was born left-handed and am right-handed now because of a completely innocent remark my first-grade teacher made.  We were making those hand-molds in plates of plaster and when I went up for my turn my teacher she said, "Give me your right hand."  The way I remembered which hand was right and which was left back then is remembering which one I put on my heart when we recited the pledge of allegience every morning.  So, I started thinking about that and when I hesitated she offered, "The one that you write with."  So then I started thinking about which hand I wrote with and when I hesitated she just helped out by reaching out and taking my right hand.  Problem is, I remembered which hand I had been writing with about the same time she grabbed my other hand and I was seriously distraught that I had been doing it wrong the whole time.  So I switched.  It didn't matter that my mom told me that either way was right.  It didn't matter that my mom, herself, is left-handed.  I was sure that when it came to writing, my teacher knew what she was talking about.  So I was completely ambidextrous until I was about 12.  Pretty soon I did most everything with my right hand except eat.  And now, unless I'm eating something that requires the use of both a knife and fork, I even eat with my right hand.  I'm probably a little better with my left hand than most people, but nobody who saw my left-handed writing would think for a second that I'm ambidextrous.  Because, I'm not.  I'm fully a right-hander now.  Kids are extraordinarily impressionable and childhood classrooms leave a strong impression.

They will always fight to get more god in school.  And we (my side) will always fight to get her out.  But there's a significant difference.  My side is fighting for neutrality on the matter, while theirs is pushing doctrine.  Mine isn't trying to allow faculty to teach that there is no god we simply don't think the question is appropriately addressed in school.  Their side is trying to allow faculty to teach that there is a god.  The difference is subtle,  which is why so many people fail to grasp it.  But it's important.  You ought to be raising hell.

[fredster]

I don't think it would do any good to raise hell with them.  I'm not opposed to my son being exposed to that, it's important that he is and he can work out his own feelings in this. 

What I was more disturbed by was the guideance councelor telling him that Santa was a myth.  That's not good.  I guess she felt that it was time they knew, but I don't know why they do that in school.

I mean I always thought the magic age was 12 or 13.  Most start doubting at 10, but they never know for sure. To me, it takes away the innocence of childhood when you find out the truth.

BTW, they tried to change me from Left to Right early on to. My mother stopped them. I undestand that now most stuttering was caused by that. Since they abandoned that practice, stuttering has declined sharply.

And it kills me that a lot of my neighbors home school thier children. On my country road, I have 4 households that do that.  They say there isn't enough GOD in school.  Too many bad influences? Man, what do they want? Stained Glass? Wow.

I think home schooling is a form of torture and makes kids socially maladjusted myself.  I've seen some people as adults home schooled, and man, they are out there.

Not all of them, but enough.

[RetroJames]

I would personally be careful if it were my daughter.  Being exposed to new ideas is important, but some ideas are more volital than others.  Reading the bible or koran or whatever to my daughter, meaning I am reading to her, is one thing. 

I can provide context and I trust myself to assist her in looking at aspects of the content in a logical and critical fashion.  Having someone else do it is another thing altogether IMHO.  There is alot of power in those books, that can be used for nefarious ends, and it should not be toyed with or entrusted to others in regards to (my) kid. 

The guy passing out bibles in the hallway is not interested in providing a free book, nor is trying to assure your child has a well-rounded education in theology.  He quite literally, wants a soul.  He wants a convert, he wants a warm body in the pew of whatever church he happens to belong to.  That is another thing too, what church is this cat from?  He could be a member of the local Branch Davidians for all you know. 

I would be very careful and if it were me I would at the very least make certain the school understands there are certain boundaries.  Guys (and who is this guy again?) in the hallway peddling (the cost = 1 free book) ideology is way over the boundary for me.  I could not care less if it were christian, muslim, buddhist, or athiest.  It is not appropriate.

Schools should provide scholarly examinations of the material and subject at hand, they should not be shopping for souls.

Of course if this is a private faith based school, I would assume this is all part of the routine.

Re: The Santa Issue:  I actually have a problem with that as well.  I think the GC overstepped his/her bounds on that one. Not by much, but a little bit.  I honestly don't know if I would call or anything though.

[ChadTower]

But today, he also tells me his Guideance councelor has told him there is no Santa Clause.

[ChadTower]

BTW, they tried to change me from Left to Right early on to. My mother stopped them. I undestand that now most stuttering was caused by that. Since they abandoned that practice, stuttering has declined sharply.

I was changed from Left to Right too.  I also stuttered as a kid.  I wasn't changed by comments or redirection, though, I was changed by a yardstick and being slapped on the wrist every time I picked something up with my left hand.  That hurts.

I still stutter at times when I'm tired.  I seem to be more ambidextrous than most people, though.  I can still write with both hands, can play nearly all sports both ways with varying amounts of leanings in either direction.  I'm out of practice writing with the left hand but short practice brings the penmanship back.  Clearly, though, my personality is conflicted in a lot of ways between right and left brain orientation and my older son is exactly the same way.

[RetroJames]

You could also demand that they put a label on the GC's forehead saying:

"The belief that there is no Santa Clause is simply a theory and has as of yet been unproven to be true"

[fredster]

I set up a meeting with the Guideance Coucelor.

I don't care about the Bibles.

[RetroJames]

They will always fight to get more god in school.  And we (my side) will always fight to get her out.  But there's a significant difference.  My side is fighting for neutrality on the matter, while theirs is pushing doctrine.  Mine isn't trying to allow faculty to teach that there is no god we simply don't think the question is appropriately addressed in school.  Their side is trying to allow faculty to teach that there is a god.  The difference is subtle,  which is why so many people fail to grasp it.  But it's important.  You ought to be raising hell.

Damn Skippy...I'm on your team.

[ChadTower]

I set up a meeting with the Guideance Coucelor.

I don't care about the Bibles.

[fredster]

It's a small school.  If I want to see the principal after I discuss it with the GC, then I can just walk down the hall.

I didn't like that. But I'm not 110% sure my son is being straight with me on that.  If I find out it's true, then I'll explode.

First, a fact finding mission.  If facts are found, shock and awe follows.

[nipsmg]

Time for my $0.02.

Fredster, this ABSOLUTELY SHOULD bother you.  Not so much the "Free bible" thing (which should be an option, if they were REQUIRED to take it, I'd be more upset), but the "myth of evolution" thing. 

I'm Catholic.  I believe in God.  I believe that there is some historical fact in the bible (note, I said SOME, not much).  I believe that the Bible is a moral guide, NOT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY.  Actually, unless I'm mistaken I believe the Catholic church itself has taken the stance that Genesis (Adam/Eve, etc).  is more meant to be a moral story and not to be taken as an acutal event).

I've been seeing a scary trend lately, where schools are being ALLOWED to scrap evolution and teach ONLY CREATIONISM.  What happened to science?  Religion was always used throughout history to explain the unexplainable.   However, as science progresses, we learn more and more, and use SCIENTIFIC FACT to explain natures events.  Why are we moving thousands of years in the wrong direction?

There's a place creationism should be taught.  It meets every sunday (and usually during the week too at night).  It's called CHURCH.  And one thing that I think is being overlooked is that when you tell kids one thing, and they find something else out on their own, they tend to TOTALLY ABANDON what you previously told them as mythology.  (Easter Bunny, Santa Clause, Tooth Fairy).   When you teach kids in school that Evolution is crap, god created everything, and then they go out into the world and learn that science says differently, you're most likely having the opposite of the desired effect.   Kids start to think of religion as mythology, and totally reject it.  (I believe D.A.R.E. (Drug Abuse Resistance Education, for those who haven't experienced it)) had this same effect, and was a catastrophic failure, but that's a whole other thread).


School is for learning FACT, and learning to learn.  Not for teaching what amounts to popular mythology, depending on your viewpoint.

There's a place for religion.  School is not that place. (unless this is a catholic school, in which case you should know this going in).

--NipsMG

[ChadTower]

It's a small school.

[fredster]

I don't think that will happen.  This is the south Chad. People are nicer here than up with ya'll yankees.

I'm not mad enough to fight, just to discuss the reasons. After that, I'll draft a letter and start from there. 

I'm sure that this woman thought she was doing right.  I just want to find out exactly what she did say.

Remember, my primary witness is an 11 year old.

[ChadTower]

I don't think that will happen.

[fredster]

LOL.

Yankees.  They never learn. 

[ChadTower]

Bah to that too, I had a Quebecois accent at that time.  That ain't Yankee.

[shmokes]

I understand the appeal of being an "open-minded" atheist, but "just a free book" is nonsense.  Kids are socialized to take the things they learn in school as fact.  Would you feel the same if it was this book?

I don't think you got my lager point with being switched from a lefty to a righty.  It was not deliberate.  I was never instructed to write with my right hand.  She just asked for my right hand, and when she saw me struggling to distinguish between my right and left she offered, as a helpful hint, "The one you write with."  That's all it took.  Kids are not only impressionable, but especially susceptible to impression at school.

[fredster]

When I was a kid in First grade they actually took the crayon from my left hand.  My mom protected me and told them to back off.  I was naturally left handed and don't change me.
I think she was left handed and they made her change.

I don't care if he gets religious materials.  The first book they asked me if was okay. I had to sign a release.  The bible, I haven't figured that one out yet.  I don't even care if he gets democratic fund raiser information.  That's all good. We can discuss it and he can make up his own mind based on what he experiences.

 I'm pretty convinced on my own beliefs, but they are deeply personal to me. I don't like people knocking my "faith" and I repay it by not knocking theirs. 

I was more upset about the Santa Clause thing.  Did anybody have a school offical ever tell you that?

[ChadTower]

No... most of us, probably, had an older kid tell us.

[shmokes]

 I'm pretty convinced on my own beliefs, but they are deeply personal to me. I don't like people knocking my "faith" and I repay it by not knocking theirs. 

You're not repaying anything.  You're just bending over.  If you went to the school and tried to hand out Atheism material, or the Koran, or Wiccan or Pagaan stuff, you'd be instructed to leave or would you'd leave in handcuffs.

[fredster]

No, I'm being "tolerant" about the religious stuff.  That's what I disputed with you about this Last Christmas as I recall.  There is no sense in trying to tell them they are wrong, just like I can't tell you that your liberal thinking is wrong, and it's misguided and naive. You'd shoot back that I was this or that.  Same with this.

It doesn't offend me if people want to do that.  I live in a world with other people who don't see things the same as I. In a society. I tolerate their beliefs even if I don't accept them.  I am even nice to Mormons.  Hell, from time to time I even talk to Yankees.

I really don't think these people would walk me out in handcuffs. Possible. But not likely. Depends on the presentation. The right presentation can let you sell ice to eskimos.

I'll tell you what she said when I talk to her tommorow. I'm interested in exactly what she has to say.

Doesn't it offend you that somebody would tell a kid there is no Santa?  Wait until you and your wife get the nesting instinct kick in and you have a cute little baby.  You'll wrap them up and show that cute little baby to all your friends.  You'll be so happy when you see them smile and laugh when you tell them Santa is comming, so be good.

I have faith Shmokes that one day you'll be old enough to let things slide.  I used to fight the good fight when I was in college and beyond, but it's not worth it. I am much more tolerant of other people now.  They are no better than I am, and vice versa.  They can live their life anyway they want.

[ChadTower]

The point he's trying to make, and I agree, is that tolerance is great in public.  School is not the place for such a thing.

In the park, at the mall, walking down the street, fine.

Not in the hallway between classes.

[fredster]

Yeah, I'll find out about this religious stuff too.

The catholics down the street are having a problem with the protestants giving out materials.  The Mormons might start handing out stuff too.

I'll find out.

[Zero_Hour]

Fredster,

I have no doubt that I would have been more annoyed with the bible than santa, but that's your ball of wax to chew. Sounds to me that you actually have a relationship with your son (amazing how videogames, sports, or other common interests can help that sort of thing), and can discuss things like free Bibles and the various beliefs that those in your community may have about those things. In that respect the free Bible is an opportunity for discussion with your son, as opposed to an opportunity to go nuclear on the administration. Those conversations will carry far more weight than any religious text handed to him in a hallway . Fact is it's hard to get up in arms about something that is a non-issue to you. Good luck on the fact finding mission, and good luck on the future Halo2 death matches. 

[whammoed]

I was more upset about the Santa Clause thing.

[RetroJames]

Yeah, I'll find out about this religious stuff too.

The catholics down the street are having a problem with the protestants giving out materials.  The Mormons might start handing out stuff too.

I'll find out.

Sounds like there is a turf war brewing....my money's on the Catholics...they go that pogrom stuff down to a science...



I was raised catholic and yes that gives me the right to say such things, they tried that no lefty stuff on my sister too

[ChadTower]

While they were trying the no underpants stuff on you, no doubt.

[RayB]

Please keep in mind Fredster, that children are very impressionable, no matter how "balanced" you may think your child is. Just remember that right on up till the late teens, most life experiences are new and magnified in their eyes. There's no wisdom to attenuate the things they experience. That's why "janie called me a poo head" is a big deal to a kid but not to an adult.

Kids view school as a place of learning, and anyone older than them are authority figures to some degree. (Hell, to a 4th grader, even a 6th grader is an "authority figure". )

[shmokes]

And tolerance isn't a universal positive.  You would not tolerate that Kama Sutra book I linked to.  You (hopefully) wouldn't tolerate the KKK having access to your children't schools to hand out literature.

BTW, you seem to be making a habit out of hiding behind my age every time we disagree.  I can't imagine it actually works with anyone here, even the hardcore conservatives.  I'm an intelligent, thoughtful and generally well-informed guy.  Whether you agree with my positions or not, I suspect that this comes through in my posts.

I'm 27.  I was raised in poverty and have lived entirely on my own for more than ten years.  I put myself through school, with no scholarships or grants, yet am debt-free.  I have a Roth IRA, automatically funded from paycheck deductions, ready to be transfered into an education fund set up for my kid, even though my wife and I haven't started having kids yet (which is why it can't yet be set up as an education fund).  I scored in the 91st percentile on the law school admissions test (LSAT), so can go pretty nearly wherever I want for school.  I'm already in a professional career as a network administrator, solely responsible for the networks in six buildings, spread out over five counties.  Next fall I will have two bachelor's degrees, one in Political Science and one in Information Systems (10 years real-world workforce experience in the latter, five years as a Professional), as well as a minor in French and a certificate in International Relations.

When exactly is this "growing up" thing going to happen?  What lessons can I learn from you?  Will I learn to form imporant opinions and positions on issues without bothering to know anything about them?  Cos that doesn't seem grown-up to me....it just seems lazy.

Between the two of us, I doubt I have lessons in tolerance to learn from you.  I got no problem with people practicing Christianity.  I'm not at their school preaching about atheism to their children.  Christians in America (and probably everywhere) are intolerant of non-Christians.  That's what I have no tolerance for.

Frankly, my resume isn't even necessary.  The quality of our respective posts speak for themselves.  In the past I've just laughed off your allusions and direct insults to my age, assuming that it would eventually occur to you that it's just an irrelevant ad hominem that doesn't carry any weight with anyone who reads our arguments.  But I guess I underestimated how hard-headed you are because you still seem to think that you're getting mileage out of the "insult".

Continue using it, by all means.  The only person you insult is yourself.  I certainly have no desire to be any older than I already am.  That's something most of us grow out of about the time we hit 21.

[ChadTower]

Secondly, back to the Santa thing again, I'm a bit confused where I stand. On the one hand it's disrespectufl they did that, but is it possible your kid was being made fun of? 11 is pretty old to be talking about Santa and most kids know he's not real by around 10. I know personally we'd tease the crap out of kids who still believed by grade 5. In a way your GC did your kid a favor.

This comes down to one thing:  It was not their decision to make.  It is the parent's decision.  It is an irreversible action and to take that decision away from the parent is a permanent and hostile act.

No one should presume to overstep the parental boundaries when it comes to such decisions.  Who the hell is that guidance counselor to make that decision?

[fredster]

Shmokes,

Don't be sensitive about my "age" comment.  It wasn't meant to be an insult. I thought you were much younger actually.  I had the impression that you were 18-20.

"Between the two of us, I doubt I have lessons in tolerance to learn from you. "  See? It works like that.  That's why I tolerate other people, because you can't get everybody to agree can we?

I am not disrepecting you. You have backbone. You and I share a lot more in common than you think.  We both don't take crap from anybody.

Bibles are not Kama Sutras. But I get the point. This is new.  I talked to a couple of other parents and they didn't have this happen.

I will see what they have to say.  I don't think they are having a Klan meeting.  Those are in summer school.  We are after all, in TN 



 

[duffjr]

it's the kid's decision when he wants to know the truth.  i think i was 15 when i figured it out on my own.  i didn't believe the other kids.  i felt betrayed my whole life by my parents when i heard the truth.  just tell your kid that santa is a metaphor and the metaphor is real.  i don't see why there has to be a santa.  it just makes it easier for them to blame someone else when you give them bad presents.  at birthdays, there's no getting out of that one.  when i was pissed about a present, i cried my eyes out.

[RayB]

This comes down to one thing:

[shmokes]

Don't be sensitive about my "age" comment.  It wasn't meant to be an insult.

Oh...silly me.  I guess I just read into a perfectly innocent comment.  I wonder what would have made me mischaracterize your remarks like that.  What do you suppose could have made me think you meant it as an insult?

I bet your momma is so proud of you doing so good in class and being so smart.

When I was in the reserves in Gulf War 1...Were you in kindergarden then, right? 

Problem solving is hard.  You'll learn more about this concept next year when you're in the seventh grade.

Keep in mind that searching for something vague such as instances that you have attempted to use my age as an insult is pretty difficult.  This isn't a complete list.

[fredster]

Shmokes,

Ah the memories. Those were classics. Kinda like a photo album.

My favorite - "Problem solving is hard.

[RayB]

From what I understand, this was done as a group, not individually.

But I did hold together the myth because it made him happy.

[hypernova]

geez...12 or 13?  11?  even 10?

man...i had ants in my pants when my daughter turned 6.  i'd wanted to tell her for the last year.  wife said otherwise, and that's one of those arguments you DON'T choose.  nearly pointless because of later events in the year.  incidentally, earlier this year, the truth did come out about the easter bunny.   a couple months later, she figured out santa.  it wasn't a big deal to her.  at all.  i was kinda surprised.  and a little proud of her!  so here i am, one daughter down, one to go.  i got 5 years until the second though.  i hope to have that lie finished in 5 years when she's 6 as well.
everyone in my family when i grew up learned early.  i learned in 2nd grade.  might've been 1st.  so i was about 6 - 8.  my three brothers learned early as well.  and i DID go around spreading the secret in school!  (shame on me!)  someone else in the class learned at nearly the same time i did, so we kinda did it together, dropping a quick one-liner here and there.
i suppose i just don't like the fact that we LIE to our children, regardless of whether the ends justify the means.  i take this truthful stance, because, personally, i don't have much of a colored past myself.  barely even black and white.  mostly white.  my only real blemishes are i stole baseball cards about 12 years ago for a few months, and premarital sex.  (boy am i looking forward to THAT discussion.  but we did marry before the child was born.)  the last time i stole was in a bigg's.  i was caught by what i believe was another shopper.  i gave some ---smurf-poo--- story.  afterwards, i felt like the lowest person.
plus, get the santa lie out of the way early on...they're less prone to hold it against you later on!  i tend to have this exaggerated thought that a teenager will rebel against me for just that reason.  or use it to rebel even more.
...way to stay on topic, eh?
anyways, even though my wife and child are catholic, (and i'm a "non-practicing catholic, so i'm really just agnostic for the time being, until something occurs that even my skeptical mind can't deny.) i'd be concerned as well about any kind of religion in the school being promoted, no matter how innocent the gesture may be...even if it was catholicism itself.
sorry if the post is a little all over the place and brief on some points.  i tend to think of too many things to write, then forget half of it while i'm writing.  meh, i'm done.

[shmokes]

Shmokes,

Ah the memories. Those were classics. Kinda like a photo album.

Like I say....I'd just as soon you keep posting.  I'd say I'd like you to keep it up, but I know as long as you post you'll keep it up because it's the most you're capable of.  It's like shooting fish in a barrel.  Not very sporting, but still manages to be fun.