TV: S-video vs. Component

[jmet]

I forgot to mention that this guy http://tvmame32.mameworld.net/main.html swears by using a scan converter.

I found his site on a forum where they were talking about it, if I find it ill put the link here.

Anyway I would love a comparison, or word from someone who has tried both methods.

[SuckerFish]

i have a ati radeon 64meg LE..

Its working great , strong enought to play Killer Instinct 2 in UltraHLE emu.

[allroy1975]

Wow, I'm pretty late into this one, but I'm building another cab and I just wanted to see what you guys think of my setup.  I got a girl at work who's gonna sell me a 27 inch Panasonic that has S-video and component video and the option to turn itself back on when power is restored for $50.  Seems like a good deal to me.  Now I'm reading this thread and some folks seem to be raving about component input.  I was wondering if this card:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?id=1051384251495&skuId=4099120&type=product&productCategoryId=cat01151
would be any good for my little setup.  What do you guys think?  also do you know if that card would come with the dongle needed for component video?

Thanks
Allroy

[Gideon]

I have a 27" panasonic.. and it has component inputs.

 I looked into the manual and it says it supports 480i
signals.

 I then looked arround and found this:

 http://www.grandtec.com/xppro.htm

 A pc to composite converter.  

 I wonder if anyone has tried this... or has any comments about this?  I wonder if this would be a better route for me than buying an updated ATI card with the dongle thingy... as im not sure the dongle supports my tv anyway?

 With many options on the device already... it might be be better as its deviod of driver problems?  And no need for powerstrip...

 

Why has everybody ignored this?  It seems too good to be true.

[jmet]

I would love to see this compared to the ATI/Component adaptor solution.

[jmet]

Some review I found on the net.

http://www.vjcentral.com/hardware/show/7559

[Gideon]

Excellent.  Thanks!

Edit:
Okay, I just read it, and I'm glad you shared:

Occasionally I get "page tearing" (a horizontal line that creeps vertically up the screen) in the output signal, but I think that a common problem with scan converters in this price range.

Unacceptable for an arcade machine, in my opinion.

I bought my first Ultimate XP Pro about a year ago and had it break on me after 8 months of usage (the output signal went to black and white). I tend to treat my gear fairly rough, so I can't really hold that against it.

I wonder what he means by "treat my gear fairly rough".  Oh, well.  It doesn't matter.  The first issue alone is enough to dissuade me.

[SuckerFish]

i doubt a dongle will go defective on you, just the video card.....   and that can happen with a scan converter too.

[libref]

Hi all,

I've read this thread with great interest, but there is one inconsistency regarding the ATI component doggle which I'd like to ask about. I noticed at one point that SuckerFish listed his setup as:

ATI Radeon 8500 oem (later described as an 8500LE 64 meg)
ATI Radeon 8500 dvi component dongle
Latest Powerstrip ( on modified arcade settings to get no overscan)
JVC 27inch AV-27430

however, according to the ATI site, the DVI doggle will not work with the 8500LE cards...but the VGA-to-Component adapter will. Does anyone know if this was just a posting error? If SuckerFish is still checking the board...are you using the VGA adapter or the DVI adapter?

The results of using the component adapter were so strongly positive I definitely want to go this route. I'm going to troll ebay for an 8500LE card and a component adapter, but I want to make sure I've got my facts straight on which card/adapter I'd need before making any purchases.

Not to drag this message out any longer but....does anyone have any insights on whether there is any difference in output quality between the DVI and VGA component adapters? I ask because if there is, I may just go with a newer 9000 series card and the DVI doggle.

OK...that's it!

I appreciate any assistance and input.

Cheers.

 

[Witchboard]

Here's the FAQ on the dongles.  I wasn't sure if anyone ever answered the question of whether or not you needed a "built by" or "powered by" ATI cards.  It's in there.

I've been lurking eBay for about a week and it seems the 8500 128 cards are going for about $55 + $10 shipping.  I was really hoping to yoink one for $40, but it doesn't look like it's going to be a reality.  If anyone has any info on where to get one cheap, drop a line in here.  I'm wanting to try and keep the card and dongle under $100.

[SuckerFish]

Libref, post the email you sent me and my response.

I was just wondering for all the people that have emailed me, who has gone and done the component setup and are you as happy as I am with it?

[Witchboard]

I fully plan on using this setup.  The only thing that I can see anyone complaining about is no screen until the OS boots up, but I think that's a small price to pay for the results you'll end up with.

I'm taking one step at a time and when I get to that point I'll post up my results and comments. ^_^

[libref]

Hi all,

A bit long, but here is a similar message I sent to SuckerFish and his response.
Thank you for the info...it's been a great help!!

----
Libref:
I am interested in going the component route using a TV; I'm planning on purchasing a non HDTV...much like the JVC model 27inch AV-27430 you're using. I read your comments from last December in the 's-video vs component'
thread the on BYAOC site regarding the use of an ATI 8500 card and the DVI component doggle along with Powerstrip. It's sounds like this combination produced a great picture! However, in reading the whole thread I had a few questions regarding the specifics of the hardware used....I was hoping could you help clarify a few issues for me?

1) Are you using an 8500 All-In-Wonder (AIW) card or a standard 8500?

I ask because you indicate that you're using the an 8500 OEM card with the DVI component doggle, however, the ATI site states that the DVI adapter (purple) is not supported with standard 8500 cards. I've copied the ATI info below:

VGA to YPrPb Adapter (black) is for use with RADEON

[tep0583]

Here's the FAQ on the dongles.  I wasn't sure if anyone ever answered the question of whether or not you needed a "built by" or "powered by" ATI cards.  It's in there.

I've been lurking eBay for about a week and it seems the 8500 128 cards are going for about $55 + $10 shipping.  I was really hoping to yoink one for $40, but it doesn't look like it's going to be a reality.  If anyone has any info on where to get one cheap, drop a line in here.  I'm wanting to try and keep the card and dongle under $100.

I found one on Pricewatch for $39 shipped.

Just do a search for Radeon 8500. (it is a 32MB version, don't know if that makes a difference. The discription on ATI's site says that the DVI to Componate adaptor works with 8500s)

[Witchboard]

Here's the FAQ on the dongles.  I wasn't sure if anyone ever answered the question of whether or not you needed a "built by" or "powered by" ATI cards.  It's in there.

I've been lurking eBay for about a week and it seems the 8500 128 cards are going for about $55 + $10 shipping.  I was really hoping to yoink one for $40, but it doesn't look like it's going to be a reality.  If anyone has any info on where to get one cheap, drop a line in here.  I'm wanting to try and keep the card and dongle under $100.

I found one on Pricewatch for $39 shipped.

Just do a search for Radeon 8500. (it is a 32MB version, don't know if that makes a difference. The discription on ATI's site says that the DVI to Componate adaptor works with 8500s)

Yeah, I found that one too.  I'm trying to get one of the 128MB cards since they don't list anything below that on the ATI HDTV converter FAQ.  Figured I should just shell out another $20 instead of buying a card I wouldn't otherwise use and another $40 after shipping for a dongle that won't work.  

Thanks for the heads up though.

[CGRemakes]

Has anyone tried any brands other than the JVC and Toshiba televisions?  Do the Panasonic models work well, like the PAN CT27L8S?

[TheManuel]

I did not bother to read the whole post so I don't know what you decided.  However I want to point out that component and S-video are virtually the same.  You would have to strain hard to see a difference.  There is a world of difference between composite and S-video or better but that's pretty much where it ends.  To compare s-video to rgb as a component surrogate is not fair as rgb has a much higher bandwidth than component and all the color signals are individually handled whereas in component you are mathematically combining red green and blue in two signals.

If you are planning to spend a lot of cash just to get component, think twice.

You can see for yourself.  Watch a DVD using component and s-video back to back on the same tv and tell me if you see a significant difference.

My 2 cents.

[AmericanDemon]

There is a world of difference between Component and S-Video.  It may just be the quality of the TV you are using TheManuel, but on my Hitachi 46" HDTV and even on my 27" JVC the Component Cable blows the S-Video out of the water.  If you take into consideration that S-Video cannot produce an HD picture, but Component is the required connection to produce an HD picture, you will already realize that the component connection is a much better connection choice if available.

1)  Line details are much clearer.
2)  Text on screen is much more legible
3)  Special Effects look sharper and more crisp.
4)  You can spot Blue Screen scenes much easier.

Head out to any home theater group and state that S-Video and Component are close in quality and you'll be flamed by 50 people.  

The quality of connection is as such [Worst to Best]:

1)  Coax
2) Composite {RCA Cables}
3) S-Video
4) Component
5) RGB
6) DVI

[TheManuel]

The reason hdtv requires component over s-video is bandwith, plain and simple.  However, the originator of the post will not be feeding an HDTV signal from MAME to his cabinet but a regular NTSC signal which is just a fraction of the bandwith required by HDTV.  
Don't go by the home theater groups.  They are really nice people and are always looking to help as you clearly are but they have a tendency to see things most people have to strain hard to discern.
I agree with your hierarchy of video transfer medium quality regardless of how different is each from the previous one but I would knock out DVI from that list as it is a digital format and the rest are analog (apples to screwdrivers).

Numbers and specs aside, the only true infallible way of making a decision is for the intended user to see comparisons back to back before buying and deciding if the difference he sees is worth the extra cost.

Hopefully I'm wrong and the money will be well spent.  

[AmericanDemon]

Now on that stand I agree with you The Manuel.

But if the person were to by an HDTV and want to connect the PC to it to get the mame experience....  then the DVI connection would be best.

[TheManuel]

But if the person were to by an HDTV and want to connect the PC to it to get the mame experience....  then the DVI connection would be best.

No doubt.  You want to keep that signal path digital all of the way if possible.

[SuckerFish]

Try it then write back

[voicehorn]

I feel really dumb asking this but just for clarification (again)....   To do this all you need is a TV with YPrPb input, ATI HDTV component adaptor, and supported ATI video card.  Then to rid overscan you need Powerstrip right?? and this equals awesome results?
THANKS!

[Thread Killer]

Does the component video clarify the output to the point where it is as sharp as a PC monitor, reducing the quality of older graphics? Or does it merely make things such as small text more readable, creating a more arcade-realistic picture while not going overboard in the sharpness department?

[SuckerFish]

I would say more the second option

[mplunk81]

Hello enthusiasts!

I've read this entire thread and gained a ton of information.  To clear things up to me, and the many people reading this thread, please answer my question..  

I have a 25" TV with component input(Red Green Blue) that is NOT HDTV.  If i purchase the neccessary VGA Radeon Card and the VGA-Component ATi Adapter, will I achieve a better, cleaner, sharper image than by using S-Vid.  If so, how should I have my windows resolution, powerstrip settings, and mame settings set?  I am hoping someone has this same setup and can help me before I throw the money down getting a new card and adapter.  If someone can honestly agree that with my setup I'll get a better picture with the adapter, I will buy in a heartbeat! I want my arcade cabinet to be as nice as i can get it within a price range!  Thanks for the great thread.  

[PaulG]

Just ordered the ATI DVI-I to Component cable from Newegg (35 with Fedex shipping.  Ordered on Sat. and arrived Thur. (Includes Memorial day on Monday) and it arrived yesterday (California to Florida).  My impressions:  Freaking awesome!  I'm a huge component fan, but I'm still impressed by how much sharper and colorful everything is (Previously calibrated my JVC TV with a calibration DVD).

I've not installed Powerstrip because Catalyst 4.6 drivers are supposed to include increased support and these will be released any day now.

The downers:  480i (Without powerstrip and the current drivers ) is 720*480.  No default settings to get it lower (Other than lowering the desktop resolution to 640*480 (I guess this is only a problem if you're using another monitor and want that higher).  Overscan is slight, but I've remedied this by changing the default resolution in MAME from 640 * 480 to 640 * 432 and everything if framed PERFECTLY.

I've tried a couple other emulator (Including ZSNES) and they were perfectly framed playing full screen at 640 *480.  So even with the issues with the drivers, emulators are working fine.

Can't give this product enough of a recommendation!

[Witchboard]

Dang, that sucks.  Newegg doesn't carry the VGA-HDTV dongle only the DVI.  All well, back to $10 shipping.  

[Thread Killer]

Does the DOS bootup display at all with component input?

[SuckerFish]

nope it doesnt

[TaaJ]

If anyone is looking for a 27" Component TV, I found this one http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.gsp?product_id=2175197&cat=4560&type=19&dept=3944&path=0%3A3944%3A121791%3A4560

[SuckerFish]

that tv might be a little too big ... 30wide.   it would never fit in my machine

[Bear Hugger]

I dont know b/c component increases the resolution of the TV and thats the effect PC monitors have, pixelizing the graphics


Are there side by side pictures of S-Video and Component in action?

[PaulG]

I don't know what s-videos max resolution is, but I know 640*480 is within its range.  So if you're using an analog set and setting the resolution at 640*432, there's zero diffference in the bandwith between the 2.

As I've had a few days to play with my new set-up, I wish someone would post component (On a tv with its color calibrated) vs Arcade.  I'm beginning to wonder if there's any real difference.  This component dongle is beyond outstanding.

Couple things that have popped out at me:  Pac-Man finially has that piercing blue that was burned into my memory.  Bump and Jump, which had really disappointed me since playing in MAME (Never held up to my memories) is now beautiful (At least to me).  It seems to be showing fine details that were either missing with s-video or just ruined by high-resolution monitors.  Couple that with the fact the amazing colors of this game are now searing off the screen and the game is the beauty that I remember.  I can go pretty much down the line, but I highly recommend this to anyone who has a television that can support it.  I also highly recommend calibrating your color with this:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/630551982X/qid=1086695811/sr=8-2/ref=pd_ka_2/104-4379532-9411905?v=glance&s=electronics&n=507846

Edit:  And if you're cheap, just buy the DVD like I did, calibrate the set, write down the settings, and sell it on Ebay and get most of your money back.

[Thread Killer]

Does it get rid of the eye-damaging shimmer effect that composite is giving me?

[libref]

Hi All,

PaulG - could you post the system configuration you're using (ie. computer, video card, TV make and model).

I also picked-up a ATI 8500 + dongle and tried it on a new JVC 27" using MAME32 and found the results rather disappointing; a lot of shimmering, difficulties calibrating the screen size (using Powerstrip), etc. I'm almost on the verge of going with and arcade montor and ArcadeVGA. I'm going to try another system as I found the ATI card locked-up the computer I was testing it on...I beginning to think the ATI card might be damaged in some way.

However, I'll keep trying as the results people are having with this setup seem to be very good.

Also, PaulG - how did you get MAME set to a resolution of 640 X 432 with using Powerstrip? Is this a default resolution with the video card you're using?

[PaulG]

1.) I'm using MAME32 and just went to Options -  Default Game Options -  Advanced - Resolution Size - 640 *432.  The MAME interface will still run at whatever the default desktop resolution is, but when a ROM is loaded, the resolution will change to whatever is selected in this option.

I built the computer myself, but the motherboard is an Abit NF7-S (Rev. 2) NForce 2.  Video card is a Radeon 9800 (Non Pro.  ATI brand.  Bought at Circuit City for 199.99).  TV is a JVC AV-27D303.

I'm just using the default 720*480i resolution.  This mean I have to scroll the mouse to see the entire desktop, but once playing in MAME 640*432 fills the screen beautifully.  As for the shimmering, I seem to get quite a bit if I'm browsing the web, but in an application like MAME I'm truly unable to see it. Because when there is a lot of text, it's crisp, solid, and extremely  stable.  It's probably not perfect like a computer monitor, but it's as good as I could hope for in an analog setting.  I'm assuming that's what you guys are referring to when talking about shimmering, right?

[PaulG]

Weird.  I've just downloaded the new Catalyst 4.6s.  I have no idea how you get the new feature to work.  I did have Rage3D installed and tried uninstalling that.  After doing that (But it may have been there from 4.6) the little ATI tab in my toolbar now let's me choose 720*480, 704*480, 640*480, and 480*432.  Reinstalled Rage3D and they're still there.  So I'm thinking it's probably 4.6 that installed these resolutions into the toolbar.  It never went below 800*600 previously.  So either 4.6s add this or some bizarre combination of incompetence somehow installed them there.  Either way, I'm happy about that.

[libref]

Hi PaulG,

Thanks for the details regarding your configuration.

I'm still wondering about the 640 X 432 resolution you were able to use in MAME32. When I check the same area for available resolution, the closest I have is 640 X 480. Actually, the only resolutions available are those supported by my video card...and 640 X 432 is not one of them.

I checked the ATI site and 640 X 432 is not an available resolution for the ATI 9800 card...is this perhaps an available default resolution in MAME32? If so, perhaps I need to re-install because I definitely don't have that resolution available to me (unless I define it with Powerstrip - but from your post I'm assuming that you're not using Powerstrip).

I should also note that I'm using MAME32 v.79

Thanks again!

[SuckerFish]

The only way I saw that resolution was after making it in powerstrip.

I don't know if you still need to do this with the newest drivers... my drivers date from xmas 2003.