United Nations & Guantanamo

[ChadTower]

I love the smell of asshats in the morning.

[Dexter]

I love the smell of asshats in the morning.

Oooh, good reply. The last resort of an empty vessel. Want to throw in a "yo mamma" jibe as well?? 

[ChadTower]

Not empty vessel, a vessel that has lost interest in the discussion.

A yo momma jibe here would be a waste of a yo momma jibe.

[Crazy Cooter]

Regarding sanctions:
CBS correspondent Lesley Stahl relied on this estimate in 1996 when she asked U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Madeleine Albright,

    We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that is more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?

Albright answered,

    I think this is a very hard choice, but the price, we think the price is worth it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7967-2004Oct28.html
Based on the number of Iraqi fatalities recorded by the survey teams, the researchers calculated that the death rate since the invasion had increased from 5 percent annually to 7.9 percent. That works out to an excess of about 100,000 deaths since the war, the researchers reported in a paper released early by the Lancet, a British medical journal.

The researchers called their estimate conservative because they excluded deaths in Fallujah, a city west of Baghdad that has been the scene of particularly intense fighting and has accounted for a disproportionately large number of deaths in the survey.

"We are quite confident that there's been somewhere in the neighborhood of 100,000 deaths, but it could be much higher," Roberts said.

When the researchers examined the causes of the 73 violent deaths collected in the study, 84 percent were due to the actions of coalition forces, although the researchers stressed that none was the result of what would have been considered misconduct. Ninety-five percent were due to airstrikes by helicopter gunships, rockets or other types of aerial weaponry.

Forty-six percent of the violent deaths involving coalition forces were men ages 15 to 60, but 46 percent were children younger than 15, and 7 percent were women, the researchers reported.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/torture/view/ <-- Video links available
Abu Ghraib has always been a terrifying place to Iraqis -- Saddam Hussein used it as his primary torture chamber -- but in 2004, when graphic photographs of American soldiers abusing prisoners surfaced, Abu Ghraib took on deeper meaning.
...
FRONTLINE follows the implementation of the Rumsfeld rules from the battlefields of Afghanistan to the detention facilities at Guantanamo Bay, where eventually the FBI began to document a trail of abuses by interrogators.

In one e-mail, an agent reports on conditions in an interrogation room: "[T]he A/C had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room probably well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his own hair out throughout the night."

It brings up a question in mind:
If the US is going to implement torture, and our population agrees to it (like some of the surveys I've seen suggest), what makes us any "better" than anyone else?  Why should we be allowed by the rest of the world to police them when we do it like that?  It seems counter-productive.  If we're telling the world how great it is to accept our way of life, shouldn't it actually be a better way of life?

I wonder how much of the lost faith in the Iraq war is actually lost faith in America.

[ChadTower]

Could someone summarize that for me, maybe write a 6 second jingle so I won't forget it?

[Crazy Cooter]

...one count for Hussein's administration and one for during our occupation.

...researchers calculated that the death rate since the invasion had increased from 5 percent annually to 7.9 percent.

[ChadTower]

Those are for the Iraqis killed by other Iraqis?

As in, not by us?

[Crazy Cooter]

Death rate for civilians no matter what the cause.  Saddam is included in the 5% and the US is included in the 7.9% (along with natural causes).

[jbox]

Finally! George Bush is convicted! 

[fredster]

Cooter, Abu Ghraib was an aboration. It wasn't policy.

I was in the Army, in within the first 30 days they went through what we were allowed to do. We weren't allowed to cut off body parts, harm prisoners in any way. We couldn't take scalps, etc. We couldn't beat them up. We couldn't brand them, we couldn't blind them.

We could however, deprive them of sleep like they did us all through basic training and AIT. We could use psychops as long as the prisoners were not mamed or branded.

Torture is where people are put on a rack, branded, whipped with canes, that sort of thing.

We had a couple of idiots with little or no supervision here. It wasn't policy.

As far as these death rates, we don't know what the death rate was prior to the invansion for sure do we?  These are "estimates".  Where are the estimates comming from and who's doing it and why?

You failed to get the juicy part too - ""I certainly think that 100,000 is a reach," Garlasco said. "

And this one - "The methods that they used are certainly prone to inflation due to overcounting," said Marc E. Garlasco, senior military analyst for Human Rights Watch, which investigated the number of civilian deaths that occurred during the invasion. "These numbers seem to be inflated."

It stands to reason that we disrupted the culture. Sure. But we didn't target civilians. A 2.9% Increase after a war. Wonder what it was for Japan?

Once we setup the provisonal government, get the forces to work as a team and make sure we don't have another despot take over, we are successful.

These people that are disrupting Iraq are Muslim Fanatics. What else can you call them? People who are out for their own agenda.

It happened in Germany after WWII.  It happened in Korea.  These guys are freaking nuts. How many civilians were killed by them? The Iraqis know who's killing them.

Look at what they did to the hotels. Look what they are doing to the civilian police force there.

This war could be the turning point in Mideast stability and prolonged peace in the region.

Who Knows? If Saddam had stayed in power chances are we'd be fighting him again when he came off the sanctions. And he'd be a more of a formidable enemy. 

[Dexter]

We had a couple of idiots with little or no supervision here. It wasn't policy.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/11/20/torture/index.html

By the way Fred, I'm selling some magic beans on the buy/sell/trade forum you may be interested in....

[Crazy Cooter]

Magic beans you say?  I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter  .

The estimates are explained in the link provided.  I think it is hard for a military analyst to even comment on the accuracy of the numbers when the military doesn't keep track of how many civilians are killed.  If they had something other tha "I think", like say... one single study of their own... then I'd weigh in their numbers.  But they haven't made an attempt at coming up with a number at all.  It's against policy.

Watch the video links at the PBS site.

[Crazy Cooter]

This war could be the turning point in Mideast stability and prolonged peace in the region.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4460430.stm


[Iran's BigWig]
"The Islamic Republic of Iran holds the American government responsible for the suffering of the Iraqi people and all the crimes and assassinations now being committed in Iraq," he said
...
[Iraq's BigWig]
"We will never forget the Iranian government and people's help to Iraq, and we hope our relations improve in all areas," he was reported as saying.

It stands to reason that we disrupted the culture. Sure. But we didn't target civilians. A 2.9% Increase after a war. Wonder what it was for Japan?

Unknown for Japan.  I can't find any links that aren't screaming with bias.  The 2.9% is of the total population, not an increase.  If you wanted to put it in perspective, you'd have to say:
"During Saddam's regime, there was a 5% mortality rate for civilians.  During the coalition occupation, it has risen to 7.9%, which is a 58% increase in the civilian mortality rate."

If we aren't targeting civilians, was he? <--- Food for thought only, I know what he was doing ---  It does show how some Iraqi's might be seeing things ---  It also shows a (potentially) valid arguement that can be used to recruit more people to fight against us ---

I can see how some Iraqi's want us out.  Take Guantanamo, add the years of sanctions, add in personal experience of constant war, add in any civilian deaths witnessed, add in the US views of the UN, and multiply by the local media coverage.  We've spent a lot of time there trying to form the government that we want to see... and it looks like it's not the government the Iraqi's want.  I think that's a big spot of frustration for everyone involved.  Their constitution is crap (IMO) because it still doesn't give the rights that people *should* have.  I know that I'd be frustrated over there knowing that I was fighting for "Iraqi Freedom" that wasn't "freedom" as we define it.  I have yet to see any real progress under a full-fledged war that couldn't have been solved by a handful of guys with sniper rifles (which I know is against policy but for arguements sake).

I think *my* biggest concern is that once all of this is said & done, it's not going to be anything like what we expect.  Iraq is already sleeping with Iran and look at what Iran is doing...  It would really suck if we end up with a joint alliance between Iran & Iraq to develop "nasty" stuff.  The only way I see to avoid it would be an occupation.  And that's not going to be pretty... or cheap... in money or lives.

[fredster]

Thanks for the offer Dexter.  But I think you should return them to whomever you bought them from.

Cooter, there is a lot of political posturing going on inside the Iraqi beltway (or turbanway) there. Lots of fledgling politicians feeling out their constituents.

This man was in Iran when he made these remarks. Wow.

If ever there was an argument for NO timetable, here it is:
Ayatollah Khamenei :

"The presence of foreign troops is damaging for the Iraqis, and the Iraqi government could ask for their departure by proposing a timetable," he added.

"The US and Britain will eventually have to leave Iraq with a bitter experience."

Cooter:

Their constitution is crap (IMO) because it still doesn't give the rights that people *should* have.

Our first draft didn't either, and they kinda made lots of edits after that too.

If we aren't targeting civilians, was he? <--- Food for thought only, I know what he was doing

Yep, here it is again, because we just keep forgetting - http://massgraves.info/

[Dartful Dodger]

There is to much nonsense in this thread.  I ignored all the posts, so if this was said already, just ignore it. 
Point 1: The UN was willing to abide by Sadam's restrictions, if they don't want to abide by ours f'm.
Point 2:The US is the only country in the UN willing to act, so what are they going to do?

[Crazy Cooter]

If we aren't targeting civilians, was he? <--- Food for thought only, I know what he was doing

Yep, here it is again, because we just keep forgetting - http://massgraves.info/

Now take those graves and multiply by 58%.  That's the "shock" that Iraqi's see.  Plus it's probably worse due to the media coverage they have.  For each person in the US that uses those photos to justify removing Saddam, there are 1.58 people in Iraq that use it to justify removing the US.  That's why we need to be extra careful what happens there.