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Author Topic: United Nations & Guantanamo  (Read 5741 times)

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Crazy Cooter

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United Nations & Guantanamo
« on: November 18, 2005, 10:02:07 am »
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4448420.stm

The UN has formally rejected a US invitation to visit the Guantanamo prison camp, saying it cannot accept the restrictions imposed by Washington.
...
UN officials have been trying to visit the camp since it opened in January 2002.
...
UN human rights experts said the US had refused to grant them the right to speak to detainees in private.
...
"It is particularly disappointing that the United States government, which has consistently declared its commitment to the principles and of independence and objectivity of the fact-finding mechanism, was not in a position to accept these terms," a UN statement said. 


Seems stupid to not let them talk in private.  Why would it matter?  There was also an issue about letting 5 UN inspectors in instead of only three.  Again, who cares?  I don't see how we can jump up & down demanding every other country in the world do what the UN says if we can't adapt to these simple requests.  What am i missing?

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2005, 10:55:12 am »

You're missing that they don't trust the UN inspectors to tell the truth.  If they speak to the detainees in private, it can't be recorded or witnessed, and thus the inspectors can say anything they want came out of those conversations.

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2005, 11:19:20 am »
If we don't trust them, why do we demand they go into ther countries?

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2005, 11:20:14 am »

I don't understand the question.

mr.Curmudgeon

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2005, 12:02:11 pm »

You're missing that they don't trust the UN inspectors to tell the truth.

Well, at this point...the U.N. has more credibility than the U.S. government.  For example, Resolution 1440 was essentially abused by this administration when, immediately after it was passed, they yanked the inspectors out and declared "diplomacy has failed."

Personally, I don't think this administration has much merit for lecturing others about truth and honesty.

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2005, 12:12:12 pm »

You're missing that they don't trust the UN inspectors to tell the truth.  If they speak to the detainees in private, it can't be recorded or witnessed, and thus the inspectors can say anything they want came out of those conversations.

That's easily verified. All the US has to do is get a transcript of what the UN inspector claims was said, then take it back to the detainee and ask him whether it was accurate.

But let's face it the real reason the US authorities are placing unreasonable obstacles in the UN's way is because they're afraid there may be embarrassing revelations about how the detainees have been treated, and how flimsy in some cases the evidence against them is.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." - Samuel Johnson

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2005, 12:32:48 pm »
Well, at this point...the U.N. has more credibility than the U.S. government.

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2005, 12:49:10 pm »
Quote
Well, at this point...the U.N. has more credibility than the U.S. government.
::)

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2005, 12:53:15 pm »
You assume they give a crap what anyone thinks about what they do.

They have proven over and over and over again that they do not.  Credibility is only relevant when the person speaking cares whether or not you believe them.

heh. Actually I assume just as you do, that this administration couldn't give one whit about what anybody thinks. We've been a rogue nation since Cheney's coup in 2000.


mrC
« Last Edit: November 18, 2005, 12:55:33 pm by mr.Curmudgeon »

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2005, 12:54:46 pm »
 ::)
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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2005, 12:55:23 pm »

You can have your rouge, you pinko Francophile.

 ;D

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2005, 12:56:12 pm »

Damn it!!! I just fixed the spelling...you must just sit there and refresh every frickin' thread...

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2005, 12:58:43 pm »

Not usually, no... but there was a window of like two minutes on that one.

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2005, 01:07:17 pm »
::)

fredster, you don't find it odd that Cheney, after being asked to head Bush's VP search committee, eventually just said, "Whelp, I looked at a plethora of potential VP candidates, and, um...I'm the best...so I'm appointing myself as your new Vice Presidential candidate?"

There's a reason Bush is one of the most fit Presidents in recent history, Cheney has let him play outside and ride his bike, for 5 years now, while he takes care of all the heavy political maneuvering!

I watched the Manchurian Candidate (the recent one) the other day, and I realized, hell, Cheney and his boys didn't need to go through all that trouble of building a secret lab in order to practice experiments that alter the neural wavelengths of presidential candidates so they could be brainwashed into pushing a secret agenda...all they had to do was find an idiot like Bush. So far, the plan has worked perfectly. Cheney's stock has matured nicely, and he can just eventually bow out (citing a bum ticker) and leave Boy Wonder to face the firing squad.

heh.




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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2005, 01:10:05 pm »

Hey, look at all the steaming credibility in that post.

mr.Curmudgeon

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2005, 03:15:55 pm »

Hey, look at all the steaming credibility in that post.

Are you saying that Cheney didn't appoint himself?

If so, whose that snarly guy that's been running the country for the past five years?

fredster

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2005, 03:17:29 pm »
Me  ;)
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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2005, 03:25:33 pm »
Are you saying that Cheney didn't appoint himself?

If so, whose that snarly guy that's been running the country for the past five years?

The VP does not have the authority to appoint himself.  He may have told someone else to do it but it was not him that made the final decision.

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2005, 03:40:26 pm »
Are you saying that Cheney didn't appoint himself?

If so, whose that snarly guy that's been running the country for the past five years?
The VP does not have the authority to appoint himself.  He may have told someone else to do it but it was not him that made the final decision.

Well now you're just ChadTowering, ur....splitting hairs for the sake of argument. You know full well that a guy like Cheney, with his long career in Washington and deeps roots in the neo-conservative enclaves there, completely had the power to pull the strings and get himself the big cushy chair.

I mean, the guy got himself FIVE deferments at the height of Vietnam...


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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2005, 03:46:36 pm »

He can pull the strings to have someone else do it.

Yet, still, it is someone else doing it.  If someone else with access to more strings didn't want it to happen, it would not happen.

No one has so much power that they can simply declare themselves VP without others agreeing to it of their own volition.

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2005, 04:21:21 pm »
C, Please stop, you are cracking me up.

Hey, I heard Chaney's grandparents had an insurance policy on the Titanic.  That's how they made their money.  Is that true?

Is it also true that neo-conservatives are never seen in the daylight? 

Dude, you should have taken the red pill.


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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2005, 04:25:03 pm »

But the red pill makes him larger...

Crazy Cooter

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2005, 11:09:52 pm »

I don't understand the question.

If we don't trust the UN, why do we say that Iran has to let them in for inspections?  Why do we say any country has to let them in?  Either they know how to do inspections/interviews or they don't.

I don't see what harm it would do to let them interview detainees... we don't plan on keeping them there forever do we?  Seems like at some point they'll be telling whatever truths/lies they want.  I just don't get why it's a big deal?

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2005, 11:31:34 pm »
Dude, you should have taken the red pill.

oh..---steaming pile of meadow muffin---. I took a little pink one, then I felt sleepy.

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2005, 11:33:52 pm »
C, Please stop, you are cracking me up.

hey...my two rules in life:

Never trust anyone who doesn't swear, anyone with a tenured position, or a politician.

Or Dick Cheney.


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I'm drunk...and I still type better than Seph.

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2005, 11:34:58 pm »

But I just realized that's more than two rules...but it's funny enough to just leave it. It's cracking me up.

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2005, 09:12:02 am »
Like this is a PRIME example of what I'm talking about:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4449860.stm

I realize it's the IAEA that does the inspections, but their results are turned over to the UN.  So how do we demand Iran let the IAEA inspectors free access, so they can report to the UN... but we put conditions on the UN when all it wants to do is check up on some prisoners?

If your neighborhood watch wanted to check to see how many guns you had and how your security system worked... and the police wanted to see how your kids were doing... which would you be more resistant to?

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2005, 09:18:49 am »
Quote
Never trust anyone who doesn't swear, anyone with a tenured position, or a politician.
From your drunken haze comes wisdom. Keep drinking and give us more....

I'm adding that to my list.

Quote
I realize it's the IAEA that does the inspections, but their results are turned over to the UN.  So how do we demand Iran let the IAEA inspectors free access, so they can report to the UN... but we put conditions on the UN when all it wants to do is check up on some prisoners?
Possibly because Gitmo doesn't have nuclear material?  Or that the Red Cross and everybody else that checks it are using it as a tool to bash the US.  Or possibly that it doesn't serve the interests of the US?

Cooter, what crisis in the world has been solved by the UN? Ever?  What "team" are they sending in?  Who's on the team?

If you are concerned about it, have you written your senator and congressman to inspect it and turn you over a report?  That's why you hired them, ask them and see if you get a response. 
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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2005, 01:20:07 pm »

Fredster basically has it... we demand Iran let the UN in because it serves our interests.

Letting them into Guantanemo Bay does not serve our interests.

No country in the world, ours included, is interested in what is fair. 

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2005, 05:44:49 pm »
So basically we have nothing to talk about when other countries deny access to their stuff.

Maybe that's why the UN doesn't work right.  Nobody lets them.

--- edit ---
There used to be a time when the US stood for something.

(fredster, our congressmen want to know what's going on in there too!)
« Last Edit: November 19, 2005, 05:47:59 pm by Crazy Cooter »

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2005, 06:53:52 pm »
So basically we have nothing to talk about when other countries deny access to their stuff.

Maybe that's why the UN doesn't work right.  Nobody lets them.

--- edit ---
There used to be a time when the US stood for something.

(fredster, our congressmen want to know what's going on in there too!)

It did stand for something.  It did usually do the right thing.

The problem was that we were the only ones standing for something and doing the right thing.  When you are the only one doing that you tend to get ---fouled up beyond all recognition--- in the ass a lot.  That is pretty much the result of our last 25 years or so involvement with the UN.

At some point you have to tell the users to smeg off.  That is one, and possibly the only, good thing Bush has done for America.  He has separated us from that leeching pack of garbage called the UN.

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2005, 11:40:48 pm »
Cooter, if he doens't know, then fire him. He's not doing his job.  He voted for something that he doesn't even know about?  What's up with that? Looks like CYA to me.

And Chad, AMEN.

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #32 on: November 20, 2005, 01:42:11 am »
I don't understand the tenured position part.  I'm at an extraordinarily conservative school.  A school where a professor was fired last year for saying the "f-word" in class.  The same professor was voted Professor of the Year in 2004.  I've known a lot of professors here that hold back on what they say until they're tenured because they know that they can be dismissed at any time, or simply not be granted tenure when the time comes.  At seven years an associate professor here either gets tenure or is fired.  It seems to me that in many schools the professor only steps out of the shadow of censorship when he/she becomes tenured.
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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2005, 10:15:33 am »

That's one place... many other places, they will do or say whatever they want once they are tenured.

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #34 on: November 20, 2005, 11:44:08 am »
Cooter, if he doens't know, then fire him. He's not doing his job.  He voted for something that he doesn't even know about?  What's up with that? Looks like CYA to me.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/04/28/AR2005042801639.html
The U.S. military staged the interrogations of terrorism suspects for members of Congress and other officials visiting the military prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, to make it appear the government was obtaining valuable intelligence, a former Army translator who worked there claims in a new book scheduled for release Monday.

Former Army Sgt. Erik Saar said the military chose detainees for the mock interrogations who previously had been cooperative and instructed them to repeat what they had told interrogators in earlier sessions, according to an interview with the CBS television program "60 Minutes," which is slated to air Sunday night.


Who's doing the CYA though?

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #35 on: November 21, 2005, 10:19:32 am »
The problem was that we were the only ones standing for something and doing the right thing.

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #36 on: November 21, 2005, 10:22:59 am »

No idea.


When you get that count, make sure you get a similar count for how many Iraqi civilians have been killed by Iraqis, one count for Hussein's administration and one for during our occupation.

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #37 on: November 21, 2005, 10:34:12 am »
When you get that count, make sure you get a similar count for how many Iraqi civilians have been killed by Iraqis, one count for Hussein's administration and one for during our occupation.

Classic non-answer there, well done. You expect admiration for the troops because they've killed less innocents then Saddam (for now anyway)?

http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0401c.asp

Don't forget the sanctions. Who kept them in place and caused the death of an estimated +500,000 iraqis?

How many Iraqis have to be killed by the invading force before the bush apologists decide the cost is too high. My guess is there isn't a number, because the bush apologists get selective amnesia about the reasons given for having to invade Iraq in the first place.

« Last Edit: November 21, 2005, 10:42:58 am by Dexter »

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #38 on: November 21, 2005, 10:45:54 am »

Yeah, sanctions were the cause of Hussein using chemical weapons on Iraqi citizens. 

Good call.

Dexter

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #39 on: November 21, 2005, 10:54:21 am »

Yeah, sanctions were the cause of Hussein using chemical weapons on Iraqi citizens.

ChadTower

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #40 on: November 21, 2005, 10:55:55 am »

I love the smell of asshats in the morning.

Dexter

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #41 on: November 21, 2005, 11:51:20 am »

I love the smell of asshats in the morning.

Oooh, good reply. The last resort of an empty vessel. Want to throw in a "yo mamma" jibe as well??  :)

ChadTower

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #42 on: November 21, 2005, 11:56:40 am »

Not empty vessel, a vessel that has lost interest in the discussion.

A yo momma jibe here would be a waste of a yo momma jibe.

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #43 on: November 21, 2005, 12:30:28 pm »
Regarding sanctions:
CBS correspondent Lesley Stahl relied on this estimate in 1996 when she asked U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Madeleine Albright,

    We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that is more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?

Albright answered,

    I think this is a very hard choice, but the price, we think the price is worth it.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7967-2004Oct28.html
Based on the number of Iraqi fatalities recorded by the survey teams, the researchers calculated that the death rate since the invasion had increased from 5 percent annually to 7.9 percent. That works out to an excess of about 100,000 deaths since the war, the researchers reported in a paper released early by the Lancet, a British medical journal.

The researchers called their estimate conservative because they excluded deaths in Fallujah, a city west of Baghdad that has been the scene of particularly intense fighting and has accounted for a disproportionately large number of deaths in the survey.

"We are quite confident that there's been somewhere in the neighborhood of 100,000 deaths, but it could be much higher," Roberts said.

When the researchers examined the causes of the 73 violent deaths collected in the study, 84 percent were due to the actions of coalition forces, although the researchers stressed that none was the result of what would have been considered misconduct. Ninety-five percent were due to airstrikes by helicopter gunships, rockets or other types of aerial weaponry.

Forty-six percent of the violent deaths involving coalition forces were men ages 15 to 60, but 46 percent were children younger than 15, and 7 percent were women, the researchers reported.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/torture/view/ <-- Video links available
Abu Ghraib has always been a terrifying place to Iraqis -- Saddam Hussein used it as his primary torture chamber -- but in 2004, when graphic photographs of American soldiers abusing prisoners surfaced, Abu Ghraib took on deeper meaning.
...
FRONTLINE follows the implementation of the Rumsfeld rules from the battlefields of Afghanistan to the detention facilities at Guantanamo Bay, where eventually the FBI began to document a trail of abuses by interrogators.

In one e-mail, an agent reports on conditions in an interrogation room: "[T]he A/C had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room probably well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his own hair out throughout the night."


It brings up a question in mind:
If the US is going to implement torture, and our population agrees to it (like some of the surveys I've seen suggest), what makes us any "better" than anyone else?  Why should we be allowed by the rest of the world to police them when we do it like that?  It seems counter-productive.  If we're telling the world how great it is to accept our way of life, shouldn't it actually be a better way of life?

I wonder how much of the lost faith in the Iraq war is actually lost faith in America.

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #44 on: November 21, 2005, 12:31:14 pm »

Could someone summarize that for me, maybe write a 6 second jingle so I won't forget it?

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #45 on: November 21, 2005, 01:11:32 pm »
...one count for Hussein's administration and one for during our occupation.

...researchers calculated that the death rate since the invasion had increased from 5 percent annually to 7.9 percent.

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #46 on: November 21, 2005, 01:27:24 pm »

Those are for the Iraqis killed by other Iraqis?

As in, not by us?

Crazy Cooter

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #47 on: November 21, 2005, 08:31:06 pm »
Death rate for civilians no matter what the cause.  Saddam is included in the 5% and the US is included in the 7.9% (along with natural causes).

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #48 on: November 21, 2005, 10:37:31 pm »
Finally! George Bush is convicted!  ;D
Done. SLATFATF.

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #49 on: November 21, 2005, 11:27:46 pm »
Cooter, Abu Ghraib was an aboration. It wasn't policy.

I was in the Army, in within the first 30 days they went through what we were allowed to do. We weren't allowed to cut off body parts, harm prisoners in any way. We couldn't take scalps, etc. We couldn't beat them up. We couldn't brand them, we couldn't blind them.

We could however, deprive them of sleep like they did us all through basic training and AIT. We could use psychops as long as the prisoners were not mamed or branded.

Torture is where people are put on a rack, branded, whipped with canes, that sort of thing.

We had a couple of idiots with little or no supervision here. It wasn't policy.

As far as these death rates, we don't know what the death rate was prior to the invansion for sure do we?  These are "estimates".  Where are the estimates comming from and who's doing it and why?

You failed to get the juicy part too - ""I certainly think that 100,000 is a reach," Garlasco said. "

And this one - "The methods that they used are certainly prone to inflation due to overcounting," said Marc E. Garlasco, senior military analyst for Human Rights Watch, which investigated the number of civilian deaths that occurred during the invasion. "These numbers seem to be inflated."

It stands to reason that we disrupted the culture. Sure. But we didn't target civilians. A 2.9% Increase after a war. Wonder what it was for Japan?

Once we setup the provisonal government, get the forces to work as a team and make sure we don't have another despot take over, we are successful.

These people that are disrupting Iraq are Muslim Fanatics. What else can you call them? People who are out for their own agenda.

It happened in Germany after WWII.  It happened in Korea.  These guys are freaking nuts. How many civilians were killed by them? The Iraqis know who's killing them.

Look at what they did to the hotels. Look what they are doing to the civilian police force there.

This war could be the turning point in Mideast stability and prolonged peace in the region.

Who Knows? If Saddam had stayed in power chances are we'd be fighting him again when he came off the sanctions. And he'd be a more of a formidable enemy. 

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Dexter

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #50 on: November 22, 2005, 05:56:54 am »
We had a couple of idiots with little or no supervision here. It wasn't policy.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/11/20/torture/index.html

By the way Fred, I'm selling some magic beans on the buy/sell/trade forum you may be interested in....

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #51 on: November 22, 2005, 11:24:16 am »
Magic beans you say?  I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter  ;).

The estimates are explained in the link provided.  I think it is hard for a military analyst to even comment on the accuracy of the numbers when the military doesn't keep track of how many civilians are killed.  If they had something other tha "I think", like say... one single study of their own... then I'd weigh in their numbers.  But they haven't made an attempt at coming up with a number at all.  It's against policy.

Watch the video links at the PBS site.

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #52 on: November 22, 2005, 01:47:03 pm »

This war could be the turning point in Mideast stability and prolonged peace in the region.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4460430.stm


[Iran's BigWig]
"The Islamic Republic of Iran holds the American government responsible for the suffering of the Iraqi people and all the crimes and assassinations now being committed in Iraq," he said
...
[Iraq's BigWig]
"We will never forget the Iranian government and people's help to Iraq, and we hope our relations improve in all areas," he was reported as saying.


It stands to reason that we disrupted the culture. Sure. But we didn't target civilians. A 2.9% Increase after a war. Wonder what it was for Japan?
Unknown for Japan.  I can't find any links that aren't screaming with bias.  The 2.9% is of the total population, not an increase.  If you wanted to put it in perspective, you'd have to say:
"During Saddam's regime, there was a 5% mortality rate for civilians.  During the coalition occupation, it has risen to 7.9%, which is a 58% increase in the civilian mortality rate."

If we aren't targeting civilians, was he? <--- Food for thought only, I know what he was doing ---  It does show how some Iraqi's might be seeing things ---  It also shows a (potentially) valid arguement that can be used to recruit more people to fight against us ---

I can see how some Iraqi's want us out.  Take Guantanamo, add the years of sanctions, add in personal experience of constant war, add in any civilian deaths witnessed, add in the US views of the UN, and multiply by the local media coverage.  We've spent a lot of time there trying to form the government that we want to see... and it looks like it's not the government the Iraqi's want.  I think that's a big spot of frustration for everyone involved.  Their constitution is crap (IMO) because it still doesn't give the rights that people *should* have.  I know that I'd be frustrated over there knowing that I was fighting for "Iraqi Freedom" that wasn't "freedom" as we define it.  I have yet to see any real progress under a full-fledged war that couldn't have been solved by a handful of guys with sniper rifles (which I know is against policy but for arguements sake).

I think *my* biggest concern is that once all of this is said & done, it's not going to be anything like what we expect.  Iraq is already sleeping with Iran and look at what Iran is doing...  It would really suck if we end up with a joint alliance between Iran & Iraq to develop "nasty" stuff.  The only way I see to avoid it would be an occupation.  And that's not going to be pretty... or cheap... in money or lives.

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #53 on: November 22, 2005, 04:09:40 pm »
Thanks for the offer Dexter.  But I think you should return them to whomever you bought them from.

Cooter, there is a lot of political posturing going on inside the Iraqi beltway (or turbanway) there. Lots of fledgling politicians feeling out their constituents.

This man was in Iran when he made these remarks. Wow.

If ever there was an argument for NO timetable, here it is:
Ayatollah Khamenei :

"The presence of foreign troops is damaging for the Iraqis, and the Iraqi government could ask for their departure by proposing a timetable," he added.

"The US and Britain will eventually have to leave Iraq with a bitter experience."

Cooter:
Quote
Their constitution is crap (IMO) because it still doesn't give the rights that people *should* have.
Our first draft didn't either, and they kinda made lots of edits after that too.

Quote
If we aren't targeting civilians, was he? <--- Food for thought only, I know what he was doing
Yep, here it is again, because we just keep forgetting - http://massgraves.info/








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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #54 on: November 22, 2005, 07:02:39 pm »
There is to much nonsense in this thread.  I ignored all the posts, so if this was said already, just ignore it. 
Point 1: The UN was willing to abide by Sadam's restrictions, if they don't want to abide by ours f'm.
Point 2:The US is the only country in the UN willing to act, so what are they going to do?

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Re: United Nations & Guantanamo
« Reply #55 on: November 22, 2005, 11:23:56 pm »
Quote
If we aren't targeting civilians, was he? <--- Food for thought only, I know what he was doing
Yep, here it is again, because we just keep forgetting - http://massgraves.info/


Now take those graves and multiply by 58%.  That's the "shock" that Iraqi's see.  Plus it's probably worse due to the media coverage they have.  For each person in the US that uses those photos to justify removing Saddam, there are 1.58 people in Iraq that use it to justify removing the US.  That's why we need to be extra careful what happens there.