Author Topic: Laser Cue - IT LIVES (Read 24463 times)

SirPeale · « **Reply #120 on:** March 04, 2006, 07:57:20 am »

Quote from: ChadTower on March 03, 2006, 08:56:27 pm

That sleeve made no difference to the shooter. Apparently I need new springs. I hope NECO would carry those, that way I can go back and play WPT and Elvis for another half hour.

NECO carries everything.

And you absolutely need that new sleeve if the old one was broken.

ChadTower · « **Reply #121 on:** March 04, 2006, 12:41:11 pm »

Well, since the action is exactly the same with the new/old sleeve, the problem must be the spring. The spring LOOKS good but must be played out. The new sleeve won't stay in the hole either, comes right out with the shooter rod, and then takes a few seconds to slip back in as the spring fights back.

Would "everything" include flipper rebuild kits for a Sys7?

Also, now that I've played a few games on it, the bumper switch things... don't know the real term, but it's the flat disc the ball hits to activate the switch... they're broken. They work just fine but have chunks broken off. I was going to leave them and fix them later but now they're bugging the crap out of me. What's the term for those?

ChadTower · « **Reply #122 on:** March 05, 2006, 12:43:34 pm »

My kids are putting a playtest hurting on this thing. The main flippers need tightening but probably not rebuilds ASAP as I first thought. The mini flipper is useless, but I suspected that. One pop bumper isn't firing and some lamps are out.

EDIT: My computer is right next to the machine, so I'm using this to take notes while I watch my kids playtest.

Credit knocker is really weak. Probably needs sleeve change/clean, can't remember doing it.

The flippers just stopped responding at all. ---fudgesicle---.

ChadTower · « **Reply #123 on:** March 05, 2006, 01:21:25 pm »

Solenoid test fires everything except the flippers, even the pop bumper that wasn't working during play. That bumper's switch must need adjusting.

Switch testing showed issues with 33, 34, 36, 37.

ChadTower · « **Reply #124 on:** March 05, 2006, 01:32:52 pm »

Just pulled the flipper board fuse... toast. Dammit.

EDIT: I wonder if that has anything to do with the crappy miniflipper keeping the switch closed... or maybe the maladjusted third main flipper which kept getting out of alignment because it's not clamped in tight enough.

ChadTower · « **Reply #125 on:** March 06, 2006, 10:29:47 am »

Okay, some more research at Marvin3m, a couple RGP threads, and BPA have led me to believe the problem really is that one of the two wonky flippers caused this.

Here is an email I just sent to BPA on my working out process of the concept. Maybe someone here will read this later and learn from it.

Quote

Anyone know what the treshhold is, in general, for a pin of that era to have a flipper stuck up before the fuse blows? 30 seconds? 5 minutes?

Now, if I'm understanding correctly, what is happening there is the flipper is up but the EOS switch (the normally closed one that says "hey stop using 50v and start using enough to keep the flipper up but not melting"), does not get opened so the high voltage pops the slow burn fuse to prevent the driver transistor from popping?

IIUC, that would be the reason for the dual wind coil, so that the flippers can be held active but not at full motion (here 50-70v) voltage the whole time... and the reason for parallel wind being an improvement over series wind is what, heat?

Also, IIUC, the reason the EOS switch is NC is so that it can open the logic line that was closed by the flipper button switch, taking away the activation voltage from the transistor, opening the 50v from the coil... no wait, I'm missing something there, because the EOS switch has to do that AND somehow activate flipper low voltage too...

I'm getting close to the full understanding, I can feel it.

ChadTower · « **Reply #126 on:** March 06, 2006, 03:22:34 pm »

Hrm... studying Marvin3m's guide, I'm wondering if I wired in the replacement flipper coil correctly... I'm going to have to check into that when I get home.

SirPeale · « **Reply #127 on:** March 06, 2006, 08:00:29 pm »

Let me get this straight...the coil is always energized, and you've been *leaving* it like that?

Sounds like a bad driver, but yeah, check your coil wiring.

ChadTower · « **Reply #128 on:** March 07, 2006, 10:28:49 am »

No, wasn't energized, was working and responding to flipper button appropriately. I could just be remembering wrong and I really did wire it in there properly. I'll take a look when I get a couple spare hours.

ChadTower · « **Reply #129 on:** March 07, 2006, 10:38:23 am »

Oh, hey, just read back through the thread here... I AM remembering it wrong. The left flipper coil is the one I had to solder because the solder was cold and cracked, not because I replaced the coil. The miniflipper coil is the one I replaced, IIRC. Oops. I spent too much time thinking about this pin while at work, I guess.

ChadTower · « **Reply #130 on:** March 09, 2006, 01:43:36 pm »

Picked up a pair of flipper rebuild kits at Betson yesterday, so I'm good to go once I find some time.

CheffoJeffo · « **Reply #131 on:** March 09, 2006, 02:44:28 pm »

CWT -- in case you think you are just talking to yourself, I am following this thread and appreciate the posts (I still have a ways to go to get up to speed on pins).

Cheers.

ChadTower · « **Reply #132 on:** March 09, 2006, 02:48:56 pm »

Heh, thanks, I appreciate the note. I know people do read these even if it does appear at times that no one is listening. I use this as much for my own project log as I do to keep people reading.

ChadTower · « **Reply #133 on:** March 09, 2006, 02:50:14 pm »

BTW, this is the rebuild kit... all parts to rebuild one left/right pair of flippers and Laser Cue has four, so I bought two kits.

ChadTower · « **Reply #134 on:** March 09, 2006, 02:56:53 pm »

Detailed instructions on swapping out a series wound (older) coil with a parallel wound (newer) coil, as I attempted, and quite likely did incorrectly.

This should be more than enough for me to pop in there and get it right.

ChadTower · « **Reply #135 on:** March 12, 2006, 09:15:22 pm »

Looking at these flippers I was remember the ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- all wrong... the new coil I put in is series wound... the parallel coil is one that was already in there but had a broken solder joint on one of the lugs. This is one of the pins that Williams put all the coils with the lugs at the coil stop end, which is dumbass, but the wires aren't long enough to just flip them without a major hassle... so it's prone to solder joint breakage on the coil lugs.

I just finished rebuilding the mini flipper, which is my first flipper rebuild. Took a while but I wanted to get it right and soldering, while better for me, is still slow. Plus I still always triple check my work with the multimeter.

Haven't tested it yet, but at this point, I think all of the coils are installed properly but the EOS switches are so pitted and crappy that short of a full flipper rebuild on all flippers, the flipper fuse was going to keep blowing.

ChadTower · « **Reply #136 on:** March 12, 2006, 09:19:09 pm »

Okay, haven't powered the thing up yet, but it looks good. New coil stop, new steel tungsten EOS switch (shiny), new spring, new plunger mechanism. Gets very solid action manually. I'll probably fire the pin up tomorrow to see if it's better with a new fuse. That reminds me, need to stop at Radio Snack and get new 5A fuses.

nostrebor · « **Reply #137 on:** March 12, 2006, 09:25:03 pm »

I also want to let you know that I am listening. I'm soon to have my first pins, and cannot seem to get enough tech info about them

ChadTower · « **Reply #138 on:** March 12, 2006, 10:25:34 pm »

Sweet. Any idea which ones yet?

ClubNinja · « **Reply #139 on:** March 13, 2006, 10:09:39 am »

Pins plural - never a good sign.

nostrebor · « **Reply #140 on:** March 13, 2006, 10:11:08 am »

Class of 1812 and Jurrasic Park. I will be going to get them in a few weeks, after we get moved into our house. Probably will sell one, but not for a while

nostrebor · « **Reply #141 on:** March 13, 2006, 10:12:21 am »

Quote from: ClubNinja on March 13, 2006, 10:09:39 am

Pins plural - never a good sign.

Marriage is overrated anyway

ChadTower · « **Reply #142 on:** March 13, 2006, 10:59:03 am »

Quote from: nostrebor on March 13, 2006, 10:11:08 am

Class of 1812 and Jurrasic Park. I will be going to get them in a few weeks, after we get moved into our house. Probably will sell one, but not for a while

Oh yeah... I knew that. Duh.

PetitMorte · « **Reply #143 on:** March 14, 2006, 10:57:32 am »

Quote from: nostrebor on March 13, 2006, 10:12:21 am

Marriage is overrated anyway

Especially with pins!

ChadTower · « **Reply #144 on:** March 14, 2006, 09:09:49 pm »

Just finished rebuilding the left flipper. Dumbass me made two mistakes. First, I forgot I was going to put a cap on the EOS switch since this was a parallel coil, so when I soldered the connections to the new EOS switch I forgot to solder in the cap too. That's okay, I guess, because I don't have a ready way to drill a hole in the switch holder plate, and it is that third hole that a zip tie goes through holding that cap in place. So I guess I wasn't going to anyway.

Then, AFTER I got the bat aligned and tightened and went to adjust the EOS switch to the armature, I noticed I had a right flipper armature in there. I had to take the whole thing apart and put a proper one in there. Oh well. At least it gets good STRONG manual action now. Still haven't put a new fuse in and tested those suckers out.

ChadTower · « **Reply #145 on:** March 14, 2006, 09:18:05 pm »

Just powered it up and went for a spin... didn't make it through the first ball before the fuse blew. In fact I only flipped the left flippers twice.

ChadTower · « **Reply #146 on:** March 25, 2006, 06:14:27 pm »

Just finished rebuilding the two right flippers... new flipper armatures, EOS switches, and coil stops. Just have to put the bats back in and adjust the switches.

After that, need to clean up/file the flipper button switches, then test all of the coils and their diodes for proper resistance and such.

ChadTower · « **Reply #147 on:** March 27, 2006, 11:11:22 am »

Okay, am trying to read up on how to check coil resistance... haven't done that yet. I see this at marvin3m:

Quote

In order to check coil resistance, put your DMM on its lowest resistance setting. Then put the DMM's red and black leads on each coil's lugs. A resistance of 2.5 ohms or greater should be seen.

I'm not quite sure how it means to do that. There are three lugs on the coils. There are two leads on the DMM... so which to which, still need to figure this out.

PetitMorte · « **Reply #148 on:** March 27, 2006, 12:46:14 pm »

Keep in mind that each flipper "coil" is really 2 different coils wound together. You've got the massive, BAM coil with it's thick wire, and fewer wrappings, and the smaller "Hold the flipper in the up position" coil that keeps the BAM coil from burning out.

If you look at the three lugs, you should see the different wires, thick and thin connecting to them. On mine, both wires are connected to the middle lug, and one thick and one thin on the sides. To test the resistence of the 2 coils, just match up each pair of wires. In my case, keep one probe on the middle lug, test the left for one coil, and the right for another.

Since you've got the cool Uber-snap 50-volt flippers, according to Marvin3m, you should look for around 125 ohms for the thin "hold" coil, and about 4 ohms for the thicker BAM coil.

ChadTower · « **Reply #149 on:** March 27, 2006, 01:28:27 pm »

High and low voltage sides... makes sense. Thanks.

PetitMorte · « **Reply #150 on:** March 27, 2006, 02:03:56 pm »

Well, as far as I can tell, it's the same voltage. It's just that one coil has a LOT less resistance than the other one.

<science>
With the bam coil, it's thick wire, and less turns, which gives the current lots of room to flow through, so you get a bigger kick from the flipper. The smaller coil uses a thinner wire, with lots more windings (the wire itself is much longer) and that gives it a higher resistance. Higher resistance gives you much less kick, so it's just used to hold the flipper up.

Here's the analogy that my old physics prof used... it's not perfect, but it gets the picture across. Say you've got a tank of water lifted off the ground, and two pipes coming from it. 50 volts is how high the water is lifted, so that's your water pressure. One of the pipes is the low-resistance coil. The pipe is 10 feet long, and a foot wide. When you crack the valve, you get a LOT of water flowing, really fast. Fwoosh!
The second pipe is the hold it coil, and has a high resistence. It's a 1/4 inch pipe, that's 500 feet long. crack that valve, and you don't get nearly as much water as fast. That's because the smaller pipe and longer distance resists the flow of the water.
</science>

That's what happens when a coil gets suck and blows. Current runs thru the stuck coil, and heats it up until the wire coating melts. So the wire shorts out, making the path the currenmt has to travel smaller, reducing the coil's resistance. The reduced resistance allows MORE current thru, which heats it up more, which melts more and shorts more, further reducing the resistance until the coil has little if any resistance. With the same water analogy, picture a trickle of water coming thru a dirt dam. Eventually you get a torrent rushing thru a big hole. And since there's *way* too much current running *way* too fast thru the system, it blows the coil fuse. You can "simulate" that effect by using your test leads to ground the common power lug (the banded side of the diode) on the flipper to the side-rail. POW, there goes the fuse.

If your flipper coils' resistance checks OK, you may want to look for something grounding them out where they shouldn't be.

Sorry for being long-winded. I'm at work, and bored.

ChadTower · « **Reply #151 on:** March 27, 2006, 02:10:17 pm »

Good explanation... all caused by my using the slang terms rather than saying "high / low resistance side".

Thanks, though... good stuff to have around.


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