CPViewer vs BuddaMame vs Johnny 5

[papaschtroumpf]

OK, my cab is almost put back together after a lot of rework and a summer off doing other things.

One of the things that I wasn't able to do last time I was messing with my cab was display controls properly, which is still one of the "holy grails" for me.

What's the current state of affairs with control.ini and the different viewers? Can someone give me an overview of their differences and strengths?

[mccoy178]

Good luck with that.  Tiger Heli could give you the best review for the J5 in my opinion.  Obviously JCrouse could give you the heads up on CPViewer, and there are plenty of others to help with Budda. 

[Tiger-Heli]

I'm currently working on a webpage on them now, but it's about a month away from going public.

Aw heck, no point re-typing all this - it wasn't really ready to go public, but see http://www.mameworld.net/tigerheli/johnny/

Just be aware that the How-To links don't work - yet.

If you want it short and sweet - I personally prefer Johnny5.  Johnny is not officially released, get the latest beta full install from  http://www.oscarcontrols.com/lazarus/ and the latest beta update from http://fe.donkeyfly.com/forum/index.php?topic=119.msg1007#msg1007  Works in all OS, but needs some tweaks to work in 98SE or ME.

That forum also has a thread on the AutoHotKey Script.  This only works in XP and still has some timing issues, so I recommend using a modified version which launches the viewer separately from pausing MAME.  That is covered in that thread, but you have to dig for it.

CPViewer (JCrouse) is a good and easy to configure program, but the only advantage I see over Johnny5 is the ability to show labels inverted for a coctail table.

CPMaker (BuddaBing) was VERY difficult to configure and couldn't match the output of Johnny5, IMHO.  (No offense to BuddaBing, who was VERY helpful in setting it up.)

BuddaMAME (BuddaBing) is a mixed bag - I recommend using it with static images from Johnny5 for Win98 users.  For Win2K or XP, the AHK script does a better job (especially on vertical games), but you have to work around the timing issues.

Hope this helps.  Better data will be available when the page gets updated.

PM me if you have specific questions which are too detailed to post here.

[Minwah]

Good page Tiger-Heli...very informative (I didn't know half of the stuff).

One other difference with CPViewer, is to my knowledge you cannot use custom ctrlr files...ie if you have ctrlr files setup for different games etc., it probably will not work well for you.  I hope this is correct as I haven't tried it for a long time, so please correct me if I'm wrong Mr Crouse

[Tiger-Heli]

Good page Tiger-Heli...very informative (I didn't know half of the stuff).

Half of the stuff was just developed in the last month, so no surprise there.

One other difference with CPViewer, is to my knowledge you cannot use custom ctrlr files...ie if you have ctrlr files setup for different games etc., it probably will not work well for you.  I hope this is correct as I haven't tried it for a long time, so please correct me if I'm wrong Mr Crouse

Good point, I will add that information if it proves to be correct.

[Buddabing]

OK, my cab is almost put back together after a lot of rework and a summer off doing other things.

One of the things that I wasn't able to do last time I was messing with my cab was display controls properly, which is still one of the "holy grails" for me.

What's the current state of affairs with control.ini and the different viewers? Can someone give me an overview of their differences and strengths?

Tiger's post has a lot of useful information.

Besides the three options you mentioned, there is another called CP Sketcher. It's promising, but I don't think it can produce images just yet.

IMO Johnny's biggest advantage is that it will work (via the AHK script) with any build of MAME. So it will work with Advance and other builds.

CPViewer has a superior GUI to Johnny. (IMO)

CPMaker has a number of advantages over the other two, and some disadvantages.

The advantages are:
1) Open source
2) Should work under other OSes than just Windows XP.
3) Dimming of unused controls (not a very important feature, but a feature nonetheless)
4) Will work with Johnny and CPViewer layout files
5) Faster than Johnny at creating images on the fly (only important for lower end systems)
6) Supports my LED controller.
7) Integrates with my other projects (MAME Movie Maker, etc)

Disadvantages:
1) Much more difficult to configure than the other two.
2) No GUI.
3) The issue with the control panel image for vertical games being a bit squished.
4) Requires -artres 2 to display readable text.

[Tiger-Heli]

Besides the three options you mentioned, there is another called CP Sketcher. It's promising, but I don't think it can produce images just yet.

Hadn't heard of that one.

IMO Johnny's biggest advantage is that it will work (via the AHK script) with any build of MAME. So it will work with Advance and other builds.

Agreed.

CPViewer has a superior GUI to Johnny. (IMO)

If you mean the set-up screens, I will agree with this.  However, I prefer the output of Johnny5, over that of CPViewer.

CPMaker has a number of advantages over the other two, and some disadvantages.

One thing that gets confusing is if we throw apples and oranges together in the same basket - you mention CPMaker, but some of your comments below apply to it, some to BuddaMAME, and some to both.

We have five applications:
1. CPViewer (JCrouse) - Displays images.
2. Johnny5 - Howard Casto - Displays images.
3. CPMaker - Buddabing - Displays images.
4. AHK Script - Howard Casto - Calls Viewer when MAME is paused.
5. BuddaMAME - Calls CPMAKER or external image files when MAME is paused.

Editing comments below:

The advantages are:
1) Open source Both BuddaMAME and CPMaker
2) Should work under other OSes than just Windows XP.Principally BuddaMAME, Johnny5 now works under WIn98, but AHK Script does not (with MAME) 
3) Dimming of unused controls (not a very important feature, but a feature nonetheless) CPMaker
4) Will work with Johnny and CPViewer layout files. Comment was referring to CPMaker, but BuddaMAME can display static images from Johnny5
5) Faster than Johnny at creating images on the fly (only important for lower end systems)CPMAKER Only?
6) Supports my LED controller. Both CPMaker and BuddaMAME?
7) Integrates with my other projects (MAME Movie Maker, etc)BuddaMame only

Disadvantages:
1) Much more difficult to configure than the other two.CPMaker only.  BuddaMAME is significantly easier to configure than the AHK script, IMO.
2) No GUI. Intended as CPMaker.  BuddaMAME is commandline.
3) The issue with the control panel image for vertical games being a bit squished.BuddaMAME only.  N/A to CPMaker.
4) Requires -artres 2 to display readable text.BuddaMAME only, N/A to CPMaker.

[Buddabing]

CPMaker is both a standalone application and part of BuddaMAME. This can cause confusion.

Maybe your application list should read:

1. CPViewer (JCrouse) - Displays images.
2. Johnny5 - Howard Casto - Generates images, displays images.
3. CPMaker - Buddabing - Generates images.
4. AHK Script - Howard Casto - Calls Viewer when MAME is paused.
5. BuddaMAME - Calls internal or external image generator, calls viewer when MAME is paused.

Johnny can generate images (via -justprint) as well as display them.

So if you have a system that doesn't support the AHK script, you can generate your images with Johnny and display them with BuddaMAME. You mentioned this on the web site.

[mahuti]

That's pretty informative. I've been toying with all of these for... a year or so??? Now that Johnny5 is a little further along, and I'm using XP for the cabinet, it is indeed the easiest to configure (IMHO). CPMAKER was pretty difficult to configure, and I just can't stand the squished image on the vertical games. I did get it to work on Win98, though... but it took some major effort.

One thing that I still don't understand is mame CTRLR configuration. Is there a good and current tutorial on ctrlr files somewhere (and if so... please provide a link.)

I'm not very dense, but I just haven't had any luck making them work. I basically have 1 configuration for 1 button games, 1 for 2 button games, etc, and additional panels. Seems every time I create a ctrlr file it either doesn't get used, or screws MAME up royally. Also, IIRC there have been a few changes to the format of the CTRLR files used in MAME in the last 6-8 months or so. If you are providing info about using the viewers

[Tiger-Heli]

One thing that I still don't understand is mame CTRLR configuration. Is there a good and current tutorial on ctrlr files somewhere (and if so... please provide a link.)

http://www.mameworld.net/easyemu/mameguide/mamecontrolini.htm

Also, IIRC there have been a few changes to the format of the CTRLR files used in MAME in the last 6-8 months or so. If you are providing info about using the viewers  a link (or a write-up) on CTRLR files would be handy.

In spite of the link above, I quit using ctrlr files when the format changed.  The page is about Johnny5 (the other viewers are just shown as alternatives).  Johnny5 will figure out whether you use the Tab key or set up .xml (cfg) files, and since the page is long anyway and I'm not familiar with them, I chose not to cover them.

[papaschtroumpf]

Awesome responses guys! Tiger-Heli's page is great too!
Things changed so much since I last played with all this, way more options now, which is a good thing.

By the way Buddabing, I think the abillity to grey out unused controls is great, I wish the other guys would make it an option too (hint hint)

[Tiger-Heli]

By the way Buddabing, I think the abillity to grey out unused controls is great, I wish the other guys would make it an option too (hint hint)

Can be done with Johnny5 - You just need an image (and .lof file) named 1button.jpg with all but the 1-button grayed out, 2button.jpg with all but two and then modify the loffilters.txt file to pick up on them (That's being covered on the next page I'm working on.).

Good luck if you use different buttons for different one-button games, though.

[papaschtroumpf]

Also, how do the viewers deal with reduced resolution: some MAME games run at very low resolution, so does the viewer change resolution to something larger, then returns back to MAME's resolution?

I had BuddaMAME mostly working last time I played with this (method 4, showing the CP when MAME is paused combined with method 1, static images in the FE, is what I would like to use) but it required -artres 2 to alleviate the issue above and I had a number of games that didn't work (can't remember which ones atm, probably operator error).

[Buddabing]

That's pretty informative. I've been toying with all of these for... a year or so??? Now that Johnny5 is a little further along, and I'm using XP for the cabinet, it is indeed the easiest to configure (IMHO). CPMAKER was pretty difficult to configure, and I just can't stand the squished image on the vertical games. I did get it to work on Win98, though... but it took some major effort.

One thing that I still don't understand is mame CTRLR configuration. Is there a good and current tutorial on ctrlr files somewhere (and if so... please provide a link.)

I'm not very dense, but I just haven't had any luck making them work. I basically have 1 configuration for 1 button games, 1 for 2 button games, etc, and additional panels. Seems every time I create a ctrlr file it either doesn't get used, or screws MAME up royally. Also, IIRC there have been a few changes to the format of the CTRLR files used in MAME in the last 6-8 months or so. If you are providing info about using the viewers

[Tiger-Heli]

Also, how do the viewers deal with reduced resolution: some MAME games run at very low resolution, so does the viewer change resolution to something larger, then returns back to MAME's resolution?

Don't confuse the game's native resolution with MAME's displayed resolution.  I can't speak for an arcade monitor, but . . .

When I used BuddaMAME, I ran MAME at 800x600 on a PC monitor.  PacMan natively runs at 224x288, but MAME will display it at 450x600 if using preserve aspect ratio and hws with 800x600 specified.  BuddaMAME squishes my 1024x768 controls.png image to approximately 450x500 which is why artwork res 2 is required.

The AHK script minimizes MAME and then launches Johnny at desktop resolution, so if your FE is running at 1024x768 or 1152x864, that's what Johnny runs at.

Both Johnny and BuddaMAME do a good job of scaling images within their limitations.  (The 450x500 image is tough to read, but not distorted.)

I had BuddaMAME mostly working last time I played with this (method 4, showing the CP when MAME is paused combined with method 1, static images in the FE, is what I would like to use)

Just to avoid confusion - Method 4 is using Johnny and the AHK script.  What you had was the alternate method at the bottom of the page - Using BuddaMAME to display static images.

but it required -artres 2 to alleviate the issue above and I had a number of games that didn't work (can't remember which ones atm, probably operator error).

That probably wasn't the issue, but BuddaMAME does have some problems.  1944 does not stretch to full screen for me if I have a controls.png file (well actually some but not all controls.png files) in the main directory, regardless of the .ini file settings. . .

There are probably other games with issues as well.

[mahuti]

Johnny5 will figure out whether you use the Tab key or set up .xml (cfg) files

Really? Sweet. Hm. I didn't notice that before. I'll have to look into that. I've configured about a bizillion games with the tab key... it'd be great to just be able to reuse that.

Thanks for the link. Sorry to hijack your thread. Since there's already a good resource, I agree... it's useless to add more stuff to your controller page.

[Tiger-Heli]

Johnny5 will figure out whether you use the Tab key or set up .xml (cfg) files

Really? Sweet. Hm. I didn't notice that before. I'll have to look into that. I've configured about a bizillion games with the tab key... it'd be great to just be able to reuse that.

Thanks for the link. Sorry to hijack your thread. Since there's already a good resource, I agree... it's useless to add more stuff to your controller page.

The parse for tab keys settings was added to the latest beta, not the one currently on Lazarus.

From my "coming soon" setup page:

DEFAULT INSTALLATION AND TESTING

Download Johnny5 from http://www.oscarcontrols.com/lazarus/. You can also find the MAME controller file conversion info here.  Now get the latest (as of 18Sep05) version of the viewer from this message: http://fe.donkeyfly.com/forum/index.php?topic=119.msg1007#msg1007.  Delete or rename the current C:\johnny\johnny5.exe, download Johnny5.txt, place in the C:\johnny folder, and rename as johnny5.exe.

Now, double-click on C:\johnny\Johnny5.exe.  It should give you an Introduction Window and put you on the options screen, but if not, go to  "Options - Viewer".  Do NOT   change anything except "Path to MAME", "MAME exe" and "controller config" file in the following formats:

C:\mame\
mame.exe
XArcade (Example, or leave blank)

I highly recommend leaving the controller config tab blank.  Johnny5 now does a very thorough job of searching your controller files and should find them whether you tell it where they are or not.

NOTE: You can get serious errors (like every game using the mylayout.jpg background) if you change any of the other settings on this window.  I am posting the contents of my C:\johnny\options.cfg file below in case your's get messed up and you want to get it back:

 0
 0
c:\mame\
mame.exe

 1
 1
 1
 0
 0
 0
 0
27
17

If you are using WinXP or Win2K (or NT?), you should be set up now.  Right-click on the c:\johnny folder, select "Command Prompt Here", and type "Johnny5 1942" or "Johnny5 pacman" and Enter in the command window.  The screen should briefly go black and then it should show the control panel above with your selected key assignments labeled by function (Remember, Howard re-mapped L Alt, so Button 2 might not show up correctly).

If you tried the above under Win98SE (or ME?), you will likely see a solid black screen indefinitely, however; you can exit it by pressing Alt-Tab, and close it by pressing Ctrl-Alt-Delete and ending "Project 1 (not responding).  Instead of doing that, right-click on the c:\johnny folder, select "Command Prompt Here", and type "Johnny5 1942 -debug" and Enter in the command window.  Now you will see a Command Prompt for GetDriver and a Command Prompt for GetVersion flash by.  Select the "GetVersion" command prompt from the status bar and right-click on the Title Bar and select Properties.  Under the Program tab, select "Close on Exit" and click Ok.  Now click the "X" in the upper right corner to close the Command Prompt Window.  Johnny5 should resume running and you should get to the screen above.  Sometimes this may not "Stick", so go back to the Command Prompt and run "Johnny5 1942".  If it hangs, repeat the process with debug enabled and try clicking Apply instead of Ok on the Properties tab of any new command prompts that you can still see.  This should eventually fix all the issues and get the program working.

Now, for all operating systems, right-click on C:\johnny, select "Command Prompt Here", run "Johnny5 area51" and verify you see the lightgun screen above, and run "Johnny citylove" and verify you see the Mahjong screen above.

[Tahnok]

Besides the three options you mentioned, there is another called CP Sketcher. It's promising, but I don't think it can produce images just yet.

Sorry for being a bit late, but...

CP Sketcher is not a CP viewer, it is for designing CPs. It can produce actual .bmp images though and creates a save file with all the part position information. I don't exactly know how most of the CP viewers work, but I think a converter could be made to change CP Sketcher format to something the viewers use.

CP Sketcher can be found at www.CreditButton.net.tc.

[Howard_Casto]

The latest verison of j5 and the latest version of the ahk script for it will be relased sometime this weekend. 

I got sick of getting it ready only for the mamedevs to tweak the ctrlr format, so I held off until 0.100 was released and found to be stable again. 

Also I would like to point out that as of next version, J5 will also support the command.dat.  As mame32plus and it's clones are now broken due to core changes in mame, this will be the ONLY way to view command.dat data within mame.  Mameinfo support will be added shortly as the mamedevs dumped support for it too. 

[papaschtroumpf]

is the AHK script tied to a specific version of mame?

[Howard_Casto]

nope, but it's os dependant..... 2k and xp only

[Tiger-Heli]

Johnny5 set-up page online: http://www.mameworld.net/tigerheli/johnny/setup.htm

[Tiger-Heli]

AHK Script setup pages on-line - see links from http://www.mameworld.net/tigerheli/johnny/ under Implementation.

[Lilwolf]

I haven't looked recently, but I thought all the skinnable frontends out there now handle this directly?

I have a picture of my control panel thats installed in my frontend with the controls of the game before you launch it.  I don't think I ever really need to check while the game itself is running.

But I didn't think anyone was going the pause route anymore.   I never tried it (98 on my cab... extra legal licenses) and didn't know I could go buddamame.  So I'm not used to it.

Anyone out there with both options have opinions?  Is it worth trying to add?

[papaschtroumpf]

I thought like you did and had it handled in mamewah (calling johnny5 becasue the image is dynamically generated tight now).
I found that most games I wanted instructions on, I wanted them during the game, not before, so I'm still trying to get AHK working for me.
It's probably a matter of personal poreference, but I think getting instructions during the game really is what I want.

[Tiger-Heli]

But I didn't think anyone was going the pause route anymore.