Um, OK. Monitor help needed...

[TurboC--]

So, I set up AdvanceMAME with the TSR utility to set the 15 kHz arcade modes.  And I get the expected insanity on my PC monitor, to show that it is undoubtedly in 15 kHz.  Good.  Hooked it up to my WG4616 - I get what I would characterize as "faint red snow."     Ugh.

Before I start turning knobs wildly in frustration, anyone want to take a stab at it?  I was really careful recapping it last night, and I am pretty certain all the caps went in correctly and that I probably didn't destroy anything.    I have no idea what condition the monitor was in before I got it, this is the first time I've really tested it.  Tell me what to try, I'm all ears.  Thanks.

[TurboC--]

No one around tonight?     Another thing of note is that the monitor has both HSync and VSync inputs.  I wired them both into "Sync" on my Ultimarc video amp.  Now I am wondering if that could be the cause or not.  Have to research...

[SirPeale]

Does sound like a synch issue.  Have you tried playing with the horizontal or vertical synch?

[TurboC--]

It's so extreme it didn't even look like anything that a knob could fix.  Especially given that the knobs should have presumably been set correctly before I got it (although I switched out the caps.)  I tried reseating the daughterboards and it seems like that affected it but I'm not sure (I mean it's still totally screwed but in a new way perhaps?)  I downloaded and printed out the monitor manual, so I can gonna go down and turn a bunch of knobs now and see what happens.  AFK..

[TurboC--]

As I suspected.  I tried all ranges on both horizontal and vertical hold as well as just about every other knob I could turn (except blue and red "drive" or other on the bottom of the neckboard), all had effects like you would expect, but nothing came even close to producing any discernable image.  Horiz hold, when turned all the way CCW, quieted the high-pitched sound it was making.  Other than that... I am just not even certain that my vid card is putting out a 15 kHz signal.  At this point I doubt it.  And I don't know how to really test that independantly.  All I know for sure is all the Advmame settings I have SEEM to be set up for standard arcade CGA, and I am putting out a signal that my PC monitor can't sync with.

Another thing I noticed is, the wire that hooks to the "horizontal raster position" pins on the mainboard, differs from the manual.  (However, the manual is for other monitors in the 4600 line.)  The manual runs it to "R", but mine is hooked to the other side.  I tried switching the side it was on, but that didn't seem to help either.  Would raster position have anything to do with it?  Or is that just like a displacement?

So I think that either it does NOT accept my wiring the Hsync and Vsync together (the monitor has separate Hsync- and Vsync- inputs, but my video amp only puts out composite sync.  I tried wiring it to Hsync only, but that didn't fix it.)  OR, my TSR setup isn't putting out a signal that this monitor can accept.  That or some critical component is screwed.  Any ideas on how I can verify my PC is putting out a proper signal?

[Nipedley]

To make sure it is a sync issue first, pictures of the monitor (the problem you are having) would definately help so we can see whats going on.

[SirPeale]

It's so extreme it didn't even look like anything that a knob could fix.  Especially given that the knobs should have presumably been set correctly before I got it (although I switched out the caps.) 

Adjustment is ALWAYS necessary when you do a cap job.  In fact, it's normal to have to adjust settings when doing *any* work on a monitor.

Like you said, if you're not sure you're even putting out a 15KHz signal, that may be a big issue for you.  What is your video card?

[TurboC--]

Adjustment didn't help.

[SirPeale]

That card should work fine for 15KHz.

Are you sure you hooked the connector on right?

Don't have a digital camera?

If all else fails, get a DOS boot disk, install DOS Mame in the root directory of your boot drive, and configure it for an arcade monitor.  Run something simple, like Robotron or Pac-Man (though make sure to use the -ror function so it is scaled correctly).

[TurboC--]

The labels on the components, the monitor manual, and the colors of the wires all indicate I have it right.  I still don't know about this Hsync & Vsync combining issue.  Is it really OK to mix them?  If not then my Ultimarc video amp is not sufficient and I have to run a separate Vsync- wire.  I checked the DOS modes again and I had MHz confused with kHz, the modes should indeed be 15 kHz, so that's not it.  Maybe it's the Pclocks.  What would happen if I fed the monitor too high of a PClock?  I heard some old monitors only go to like 7 MHz.  Another thing I have to check is, the Ultimarc guy said to make sure I had 5V coming from my particular vid card (it uses that to amplify.)  Not sure what the effect would be if it didn't, but I doubt it would be this.  Sigh...

[SirPeale]

Also, PC video cards output only .7 volts where arcade monitors expect 5 volts. So at the very least, turning up the SCREEN control on the flyback (or on the WG4600, it's the different colored knob on the neckboard) will allow you to see the image better.

He said he had a video amp, so he *should* be clear in this area.  Assuming he's hooked it up correctly.

You're right, though.  The best way to make sure his monitor is working correctly is to use an actual arcade board.  Esp. since his experience with setting the computer to the right mode is nil.

[TurboC--]

So if I hear the 15.7 kHz whine does that mean I am getting a 15.7 kHz signal?  I'd imagine not.  There is a really cool local dealer that might let me borrow a board to test my mon.  I could even give him my extra clear bezel glass that I'll never use.  As stated I do have the video amp.  I wanted to get ArcadeVGA, but I couldn't get a hold of a computer with an AGP slot, this comp was free and has an onboard ATI rage which is supposed to be good for this purpose.  I've been out today but thinking about the project/problem, and I'm gonna try lowering the PClocks, because that seems like the most likely culprit to me now.  Any idea the upper limit of PClocks on the WG4600 series?  I downloaded the manual but it doesn't list specs like that. 

As for experience, most people don't have experience before building their first cab.  And I think the AdvanceXXXX stuff really needs some better get-started guides...

[TurboC--]

In that case, the best option (for tonight) seems to be to try some other vid cards/machines.

[SirPeale]

A HA -- You're using an ATI Rage card.   That might be your problem.  I would strongly suggest you read the thread here titled "Trident Blade 3D 9800 vs Trident T64 9970".  In it, I just tested about 15 video cards, of which three were ATI. The Radeon was useless in AdvanceMame.  The ATI Rage's worked to some extent, however did have issues with configuration in AdvanceMame in pure dos.  I did not test using powerstrip like utilities and windows as that only significantly complicates matters, especially with Advance Mame

I, too, have a motherboard with onboard ATI Rage 3D video (and sound too, for that matter).  It's proved to be an excellent board.  I've had zero issues with getting an image to display.

TurboC--, have you tried my suggestion yet of booting to DOS and running ArcadeOS bare?  You don't need sound drivers to do that.  You'll just need a version of Mame to generate a gamelist (any version will do, as long as it's a DOS version).

Actually, now that I think about it, you don't even need that. A DOS boot disk, with the monarc.sys util on it, will give you a readable mode.  Do you know how to edit a config.sys file?  With this simple solution, you can see DOS text right away once this TSR kicks in.

And now that I think about it some more, even if you had just the monitor hooked up,with no TSR running, you'd get *something* on screen, more than red squiggles.  There's something more wrong.

I'd check all your solder joints carefully, make sure you don't have any cold ones.

[TurboC--]

I can't find monarc.sys anywhere.  So a link would be good.  My monitor should display something with no input?  That doesn't seem to make sense.  I think I'd rather spend $200 on a new mon than check every single solder joint.  What about every single component?  And the pcbs themselves?  It's just a damn mess.  If I can't get any kind of progress or any more specific suggestion as to what might be wrong I'll probably give up.  I don't even know if I'll have time to work on this in the next 3 days cause of work.  Bleh.

[RayB]

Turbo do you not have any JAMMA boards? I think the safest/easiest way to test would be with a JAMMA board. That way you KNOW it's outputting the correct signal.

[TurboC--]

No... how would the average person have a JAMMA board?

[SirPeale]

Peale --  Are you using the ATI Rage with AdvanceMame to an arcade monitor or just with Mame32 to a PC monitor?

DOS Mame to an arcade monitor, a K4600 to be precise! 

As for the link to monarc.sys...no wonder you couldn't find it, I got it backwards.  It's arcmon.sys.

http://www.mameworld.net/pc2jamma/downutil.html

As for touching up the joints...it should take you about fifteen minutes.  All you have to do it take your iron, touch the joint, make the solder molten, and release.  Since you started with the caps, I'd do those first to double check.

Also, check to see if there is raster at all by turning your screen control all the way up.

My monitor should display something with no input?  That doesn't seem to make sense.

I never said that.  I said that it'll display DOS text just fine, although it will look odd (since it'll be @ 31KHz).  When the arcmon.sys driver kicks in (make it the first line in the config.sys file) you should have immediately readable text.

If when you hook it up, and you're still getting red squiggles, one of two things has happened:

1) your monitor still isn't hooked up correctly

2) there is something else wrong with your monitor.  Like I said, take a look for cold solder joints.

I know I asked before, but: do you have a camera that you can use to take a picture of the screen?

[TurboC--]

What's a raster?

[SirPeale]

I am nervous about re-melting all the joints, because when I recapped, on the bottom of the PCB some of the junctions peeled up when heated. 

I'm guessing that this was your first experience doing any soldering?  I would have practiced first on a circuit board that you didn't care about first.  Since the traces have lifted, likely this is why you're having problems.  One (or more) of them probably broke.

Not the end of the world, but the traces will have to be repaired to allow the current to flow to the proper places.

Where do you live?

Another thing is, my cap kit did not include every single capacitor on the board.  Are you supposed to replace "The Big One"?  That seems important?  I sure didn't have that.  And there are at least a dozen capacitors on the thing that I was not provided in my kit. 

No, you shouldn't have to replace all the caps on the board.  Esp. the big one. 

They really don't make caps like they used to.  I've seen 25 year old caps that still have great capactiance, while caps that are a year old die.

If you're going to do a lot of cap related things, investing in a capacitor tester is a good idea.  You can test the caps in circuit to see if they're good or not.

[TurboC--]

I've soldered before.  I'm an EE.  I'm not that great at it, but in this case, I don't know what I could have done too much better.  I only used the heat that I had to, and 2 or 3 traces peeled up.  If the solder is sitting there solid, what else can you do but heat it more?  You can see why I didn't like my major.  Normally I manage to put everything in backward too, but this time I actually got everything in straight the first time.  I verified each ones polarity several times because I am paranoid.

Just tried arcmon.sys, didn't help (the same machine.)  I'm bringing down this machine with the Matrox G400 to see if I can get anything better to happen.  Here's another (better?) hand drawing of the effects:



This is when it gets the DOS command line signal.  Again this is vertically mounted.  It seems to be going the entire range of the (true) horizontal really fast with red lines, and the pattern spreads around but is mainly centered where I drew it.  BBIAB...

[TurboC--]

No dice.  Same exact effect with the Matrox with arcmon.sys loaded as with the other input signals.  I don't think the PC or setup is at fault.  Gotta rip the monitor apart again.  One test I did was to wiggle the daughterboards a little bit while it was on (with a wooden paint stick), moving the XY board caused significant change in the pattern on the screen.  I'm gonna bust the thing apart tomorrow and redo all the solder joints I can, test everything I can for faults, and give it one last go before I give up on it entirely and just buy a new monitor. 

[TurboC--]

Actually I think I'm giving up.  The thing is all charged up now, so I'd have to discharge it, which I can do, but why risk it?  Just so I can piss around with broken components (that I probably broke) with a very slim chance of actually being able to fix it?  And in that unlikely event, I still have to find a 19" TV tube and successfully perform a tube swap?  (And my friend who has all the TV parts hasn't helped me out in weeks now, cause he just rides his new motorcycle all day long.)  Screw it.  No sense in this.  That will teach me to ever try to work with any electronics.  I should stick to the design portion of EE whenever I get my job...

[SirPeale]

Why do you have to do a tube swap?  Is the tube broken?  Or is it the burn?

If the monitor is still grey, the tube is likely fine.  If it's a brownish color then...yeah, you'll need a new one.

If you've really given up, mail me the chassis.  I've got a 4600 I'm trying to bring back from the dead.

[TurboC--]

Burn.  I think I still might keep the 4600 for now and mess with it in my spare time.  I don't know.  I just have no confidence I can fix it, so why plan for that.