ULTRACADE Discontinued as of 9/01/05

[Tiger-Heli]

By using it.  Sure, it is a "free" app, but usage is profit when the cost is zero.  It's not immoral profit, but it is profit nonetheless.

Not sure I follow you here. Since I only use it for my personal enjoyment, I don't guess I see where the profit comes in.

I don't agree with Chad here, but I follow the logic -

You are using MAME for Free and the roms for free.  If you had to code MAME yourself (or hire a programmer to do it) and license the ROMS, it could cost you years of time and thousand of dollars, so (according to Chad), that is your profit.

Examples of why this doesn't hold up:

I primarily use Gimp (www.gimp.org) freeware for photo editing.  It is very similar to PhotoShop, which would cost me about $650, last I heard.  According to me, I would be ripped off about $650 (well at least $500, Photoshop does probably have $150 value in added features over GIMP) if I used Photoshop.  According to Chad, I profited $650 by not buying Photoshop.  Depends how you look at it.

Let's say I'm a Linux user.  I install Linux on all 100 PC's at my office.  To do this with WinXP Pro (at I think $200 a copy), would cost me $20,000.  According to Chad I made a profit of $20,000.  According to me, I avoided an expenditure of $20,000.  Lucky for us, Chad doesn't work for the IRS.

Similar logic most of us can relate to.  Mrs. BYOAC member goes to the mall and spends 100 dollars on clothes that she really doesn't need at 75% off.  In her eyes, she SAVED $300.  In our eyes, we're out $100.

Final hypothetical example - I cut my neighbor's grass last week, without asking for payment, and he fills up my 2 gallon gas can, without asking for payment.

Did I break even, since my labor for mowing the yard was approximately equal to the $6 cost of the gasoline.

Did I profit by $6, since other than time and mower wear and tear, the mowing didn't cost me anything, but the gas would have cost that - plus my time and gas to go get it.

Did I profit by $10 billion dollars - as that is what it might cost me to buy the land rights, set up the drilling rig, pump the crude out of the ground, build a refinery and hire people to refine and test the 2 gallons of gasoline for me.

It all depends on how you look at it.

[ChadTower]

Once again, profit is not only measured in terms of dollars in and dollars out.  Look up the word in a dictionary.

[Crazy Cooter]

Me thinks CT is part Romulan...

[ChadTower]

That's a Star Trek thing, right?

Anyway, I expect the flaming swords of Damocles to start swinging in my direction now.  They always do when I bring this up, since most people would rather bluster and shout about threats than consider what they have and do not have here.

[Stingray]

I'd rather have a beer followed by a nap than shout & bluster, but that could only be because I'm profoundly lazy.

-S

[ChadTower]

In this case, we'll say it is because you're smart enough to know when you have purely benefitted from something that is legally grey, you don't jump up and shout when it becomes legally more grey.

[MaximRecoil]

But you have profited off of the work of the MAMEdevs, using stolen IP in the process.

[ChadTower]

Pure rationalization.  You cannot pretend to be preserving something you do not own.

[MaximRecoil]

Pure rationalization.

[Crazy Cooter]

I think CT is saying you can't legally preserve something you haven't been given the right to preserve.

[MaximRecoil]

I think CT is saying you can't legally preserve something you haven't been given the right to preserve.

What does legality have to do with anything? He claimed a profit on the part of Mame users. There is no profit when both sides get what they want in the deal. Legality has nothing to do with it. If someone gives you a bunch of stolen money to keep safe for them while they are "on the lamb" (lol) and they say that you can spend X amount of it in return for the favor, there is nothing legal about the preservation of the money; neither does either party legally own the money. That doesn't negate the fact that the money is in fact being preserved and that there is no profit to either side.

Words mean stuff.

[ChadTower]

Your analogy is self contradicting.  No profit, yet you're able to spend part of the money in return for your service?

[Stingray]

Words mean stuff.

Heavy.

-S

[Crazy Cooter]

Actually, that would make you an accessory to a crime.

[MaximRecoil]

Your analogy is self contradicting.

[ChadTower]

But we're not talking about money.  I don't buy the "I have 3000 romz on my computer and I'm providing a service" rationalization.  No one makes such claims about mp3, but the theft is the same.

[MaximRecoil]

But we're not talking about money.

[ChadTower]

I am sticking to the subject.  I was talking about the profit of a MAME user, and it was brought up that the user is providing an archival service for roms in return.  I don't call that archival, I call it theft.

[DrewKaree]

Something in this pic applies here.  I'm sure of it

[MaximRecoil]

I am sticking to the subject.

[mccoy178]

I'm going to have to give Maxim the nod on this one.  He is typing way smarter than CT in this thread.  He may not even be remotely correct, but damn does it sound good.

[btoddkelley]

By using it.

[Harry Potter]

Pure rationalization.  You cannot pretend to be preserving something you do not own.

Like the numerous Egyptian artifacts which are in the hands of non-Egyptians?

[ChadTower]

You are comparing historic artifacts thousands of years old to a rom from 1989?

[Daniel270]

Me thinks CT is part Romulan...

I think you meant Ferengi......

[ChadTower]

If I have to be some scifi treacherous species, I'll be a Bothan, thank you very much.

[Harry Potter]

You are comparing historic artifacts thousands of years old to a rom from 1989?

The egyptians were probably saying the same thing 2000 years ago. Change 'roms from 1989' to something like 'The Ark of the Covenant'.  Indy would agree with me.

Point is, without the circulation of roms, we get ridiculous things like NES cartriges sold for $6100US. A double-edged sword no doubt.

[danny_galaga]

exactly. at what point does something become 'historical'?

[Harry Potter]

When you pay $10.95 admission to see it in a museum.

[Daniel270]

If I have to be some scifi treacherous species, I'll be a Bothan, thank you very much.

You sure about that?   How many Bothans died because of smuggled plans??

[ChadTower]

Not many, actually, if one reads the books.  Not nearly as many as when the Yuuzhan Vong started destroying entire planets.

[Crazy Cooter]

Me thinks CT is part Romulan...

I think you meant Ferengi......

I... umm... well... I... what's that over there?

*runs away*

[ChadTower]

The whole "I'm preserving the romzors out of pure love and joy" point would be a lot more convincing if people were downloading and storing them only.  Seeing as how people download games they intend to use, it is still rationalization.

You don't see those archaeologists taking those 3000 year old vases home and putting flowers in them above their fireplaces.

[Tiger-Heli]

CWT - The IRS agent.

Mr. Heli, it has come to our attention that you have downloaded some 5,000 computer roms for use with the MAME emulator.  It has also come to our attention that EVERY one of those roms makes your computer the equivalent of an 80's to 90's arcade cabinet, which would retail for around $1,000 on E-bay.

Based on the above, we deem you to have $5,000,000.00 in unaccounted for assets which are subject to taxation.

Update - Mr. Heli, upon further research, we have found that at least 500 of said ROMS are one-of-a-kind games for which no cabinet or marquee is known to exist.  As such we estimate that these particular games would sell for $11,000 if a cabinet did exist, and since possession of them grants you most of the priviledges of owning said cabinet, this causes an additional $5,000,000.00 in tax liability.

When do you think you could make your first payment to us?

[MaximRecoil]

The whole "I'm preserving the romzors out of pure love and joy" point would be a lot more convincing if people were downloading and storing them only.

[ChadTower]

 

Legally, and morally, rationalized.  It is no different than downloading a copyrighted movie or an mp3.

[MaximRecoil]

 

Legally, and morally, rationalized.

[Crazy Cooter]

I think CT is saying that you profit because you didn't have to pay for the use of the ROM's, yet you benefit from them.  Take the ROM's available from www.starroms.com for example.  You legally should buy these particular titles from them.  But if you didn't, then you got them at a "discounted" price.  These are probably the easiest to discuss since they are available to be purchased from the IP holders.

[MaximRecoil]

I think CT is saying that you profit because you didn't have to pay for the use of the ROM's, yet you benefit from them.

He is actually specifying the use of "Mame" which usually includes ROMs, and he is identifying the Mame devs as the other party that isn't getting paid, therefore the Mame users are "profiting". Here is what he said:

But you have profited off of the work of the MAMEdevs, using stolen IP in the process.

[CheffoJeffo]

Well, the Mame devs are not asking for money because money is not their stated goal. Their stated goal is preservation. They achieve this through widespread distribution which is the most foolproof method of preservation of digital content available. Now, let's say they wanted to go this alone. How much would it cost them to store thousands of copies of Mame and ROMsets on thousands of separate digital storage media in thousands of different locations around the world?

I thought I recalled at least some MAMEDevs wishing that nobody did anything with MAME or ROMS ...

Cheers.