Katrina Thread / New Orleans

[markrvp]

Well, all my worries and concerns about accountibility can now be put to rest...Bush just announced today that *he* "will oversee an investigation into what went wrong and why."

I guess that's like leaving Clinton in the Oval Office with your 21 year-old daughter.

And do you think any politician would have ever gone within 100 miles of ordering poor black people onto busses?

[fredster]

Ok, then all the major news outlets and the National guard themselves are lying then.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Why is bullet point #2 a lie?

[Dartful Dodger]

Look...I don't care if they hang Republicans or Democrats...I hope everyone responsible for the atrocious response is held accountable. It's clear the failure goes all the way up the chain of command. It's just pathetic that these anonymous smears seem to be blurring the lines already.

Hurricane Katrina was responsible.

[Crazy Cooter]

Here is one of my frustrations with some of the thoughts being posted in this thread.

On one hand we hear outrage that things aren't happening faster . . .

On the other hand we hear outrage that we didn't go through a bidding process to hire people to rebuild.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Hurricane Katrina was responsible.

We're talking about response/evac/aid after the storm DD. Come back when after you've actually read the thread. I've said this before, but your responses are like some form of Conservative Tourettes Syndrome.

They make more sense in that context.


mrC

[fredster]

MrC,

Keep this up and we'll have to up your Meds.

[patrickl]

Hurricane Katrina was responsible.

We're talking about response/evac/aid after the storm DD. Come back when after you've actually read the thread. I've said this before, but your responses are like some form of Conservative Tourettes Syndrome.

They make more sense in that context.


mrC

LOL, mrC, you are so right.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

MrC,

Keep this up and we'll have to up your Meds.

I'm already at full dose. Sorry.


ROCK ON!!

[ChadTower]

That dude in the back is like "wtf, Bush is stealing my guitar!"

[Crazy Cooter]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9228086/

President Bush doesn't want anyone but himself doing an investigation.

[Stingray]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9228086/

President Bush doesn't want anyone but himself doing an investigation.  He already said what a good job FEMA did... so who will he find at fault?  I don't know.  *I* think FEMA should be dismantled.  We're wasting taxpayers money there if we have to donate money everytime something happens.  I don't understand how the Red Cross and the Salvation Army should be the countries only hope after a disaster.

Thank you for giving voice to the thought that has lived in my head since this thing started. I have no problem with donating to such a worthy cause, but what the hell is FEMA for? They proved themselves to be nothing short of useless over the last week. (Bush's opinion about his buddy Brownie notwithstanding).

-S

[Dartful Dodger]

People are still refusing to leave their homes.

They are/were responsible for their own response/evac/aid actions.

They claim they've been worried about the levy breaking for decades.

Decades, that's a lot of time for a city/state to have a decent plan ready.

[Dexter]

A sobering video.

[DrewKaree]

It's just pathetic that these anonymous smears seem to be blurring the lines already.

Are you referring to smears like "conservatives dawdled with helping out because it was just a bunch of "darkies"?  Stuff like that, or are you referring to something else? 

We get it.  If you say something, it's just you "holding someone accountable" or "raising questions that need to be answered".  No smears whatsoever.  Clearly.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Decades, that's a lot of time for a city/state to have a decent plan ready.

The Bush administration CUT THE FUNDING FOR THE LEVEES! That was PHASE ONE of the plan to keep New Orleans safe. I'll grant you that PHASE TWO: Evacuate New Orleans was sorely lacking. PHASE THREE: Resue the survivors, was completely non-existent. FEMA and DHS were useless. Who appointed these morons to head FEMA and DHS? You guessed it - "Kerry!" Wait....sorry, you're WRONG. "Clinton?"........WRONG again Dartful!................It was BUSH!

Don't think for a second that Al Qaeda isn't taking notes.

People are still refusing to leave their homes.
They are/were responsible for their own response/evac/aid actions.

"They"? Whose "they"? Have you given up caring already?

Again, here we have another demonstration of Dartful's twisted logic. Because, I've heard 10,000 people are still there, let's say a third of them are refusing to leave, so that's 3,333 people - By your "logic"...because 3,333 people are refusing to leave, 90,000 people should be left on their own to die?

That's what it looks like your are saying. I'm tired of trying to parse anything sensible out of your inane ramblings...you could be just commenting on the few dolts that refuse to leave, but then that *still* wouldn't have anything to do with anything. Yikes.

mrC

[mr.Curmudgeon]

It's just pathetic that these anonymous smears seem to be blurring the lines already.

Are you referring to smears like "conservatives dawdled with helping out because it was just a bunch of "darkies"?  Stuff like that, or are you referring to something else? 

We get it.  If you say something, it's just you "holding someone accountable" or "raising questions that need to be answered".  No smears whatsoever.  Clearly.

Smears?? Dude, wake up....

You don't want me to provide examples of the disgusting racially coded comments this disaster has prompted from your side of the political spectrum. Trust me, you don't.


mrC

[DrewKaree]

Smears?? Dude, wake up....

You don't want me to provide examples of the disgusting racist comments this disaster has prompted from your side of the political spectrum. Trust me, you don't.

And thankfully we have you to frame them for us in terms even the most ignorant redneck wouldn't use.  For what purpose would you do this other than to inflame the situation at a time when not only is it NOT needed, but there's demonstrable proof that "dem white folks is heppin' dem dere "darkies". 

And you talk about not even waiting for the bodies to dry.

[DrewKaree]

Maybe Nagin could have used the buses to move more people, maybe not.

They commandeered the Superdome for this event.  They have images of the busses sitting there lined up underwater, useless, instead of being used. 

You have no problems in trying to lay the blame of the response to this event at Bush's feet, but you can't even stand up and state one way or another whether or not the man "could have used the busses to move more people"?

You're simply amazing.  Truly.  Anyone with half a brain can see those vehicles as a resource that went to waste because of poor planning, and you can't decide if that's something the mayor of the city could have used.  No problems seeing that MONEY could have been used on the levees though, right?  Oh yeah, levees that were deemed sound.  No problems seeing how a wall was going to stop millions of gallons of water from entering the city, but you have a problem with figuring out that those busses wouldn't have cost "poor black folks" NOT ONE RED CENT to get the heck out of Dodge and save their lives. 

Yeah, let's blame someone for a wall that couldn't stop the problem from happening, but ignore the resources at hand for stopping a few of those DEATHS from happening.

Nagin does NOT have the resources, nor the manpower that the Federal Government has, and his failure to utilize additional buses did not cause a lack of funding for the leeves, nor did it lead to the lawlessness in the aftermath, the National Guard needed to be mobilized to do that.

His failure to utilize additional busses certainly added to the number of people trapped in that lawlessness, and likely more than a few unneeded deaths. 

He didn't need federal funding to commandeer a fleet of busses, those busses WERE the resources he needed to remove those who "couldn't afford to leave the city", the manpower was there in the people who would have wanted to remove themselves from a deadly situation, and the National Guard certainly didn't need to be mobilized to utilize those busses.

Will we EVER see anyone but Bush that you are willing to assign some blame to?

[ChadTower]

I can't get rid of the crabgrass that keeps blowing over into my lawn from the neighbor's yard.  I blame Bush.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Will we EVER see anyone but Bush that you are willing to assign some blame to?

I do. Your just to close-minded to see it. The moment anyone even *hints* at holding your Dear Leader accountable, you tighten up the laces on your black Nike shoes, throw on your jumpsuit and scream like you're making ready for the comet. It's cultish.

I'll lighten up on Bush the moment I see people the likes of you start holding him accountable for his mistakes. As it stands now, I've got to do double-time since you Bush supporters seem to act like his sh!t don't stink. I'm talking beyond immigration too...since that's about all that seems to get you righties all wound up.

Anyhow, the "school busses" are now being used by the right as a distraction from higher levels of accountability. It's the "big story" in the right-wing echo chamber. I'm sure Glenn Beck is frothing at the mouth about it. Your mind can't simply fathom the idea that surely state level officials AND federal officials mucked up hardcore.

For you...it stops at the school busses. Why indulge you?

Bush's negligence most definitely outweighs Nagin's...and Nagin will surely get his...As for Bush, it's up to people like you, and I'm lacking faith in your ability to see straight when it comes to Dear Leader.



mrC

[mr.Curmudgeon]

I can't get rid of the crabgrass that keeps blowing over into my lawn from the neighbor's yard.  I blame Bush.

But, anyhow, isn't the ChadTower solution to just farm dirt? Screw the "neighborhood"...


mrC

[Stingray]

Can't we all just agree to blame everybody? I mean I'm willing to take my share. I could have gone down there and fixed some levies, but I didn't.

-S

[ChadTower]

When you drove your Chevy to the levy, the levy was dry.

[Stingray]

When you drove your Chevy to the levy, the levy was dry.

Good point. The whiskey & rye didn't help.

-S

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Can't we all just agree to blame everybody? I mean I'm willing to take my share. I could have gone down there and fixed some levies, but I didn't.

-S

Ok. My bad, then.

[Zakk]

Has someone posted this?
http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=13051

Eerie.

[Crazy Cooter]

I saw a lot of vehicles underwater Drew.

[Crazy Cooter]

Has someone posted this?
http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=13051

Eerie.

THAT is scary.
So 14 months ago, FEMA knew exactly what was needed should this exact thing happen... now they know nothing.  I want a refund on my past years contributions to this waste of an office.

"FEMA's continuing mission within the new department is to lead the effort to prepare the nation for all hazards and effectively manage federal response and recovery efforts following any national incident. " - I see no reference to the Red Cross or Salvation Army... why did they have to become involved at all?

[DrewKaree]

I did read the post, but I didn't care to respond to it since you only have to get to the second bullet point before the lies start.

Don't let the dates and words get in your way at all, do you?  The "stiff upper lip".  Just keep plodding on in spite of your misunderinterpreting in the haste to find someone to blame.

FALSE. Blanco declared a state of emergency on August 26th, two days before the storm hit her area. That declaration involves the de facto request for National Gaurd. The ACTUAL documents have been available (PDF) since that time, so it's not even a good lie.

As fredster laid out for you, we are to believe your assertion in spite of....screw the media....we're to believe your assertion in spite of the National Guard themselves. 

The actual document is required to be declared by her, it does nothing until she takes the next step, which WAS taken by her.  August 28th.  It lays out for you in vivid detail what you are misleading everyone on. 

http://gov.louisiana.gov/Disaster%20Relief%20Request.pdf

Under the provisions of (the document linked above by MrC) I request that you declare an expedited state of disaster for the State of Louisiana due to Hurricane Katrina

A state of emergency - STATE LEVEL, required BEFORE you can ask for it on the FEDERAL level and request for aid at that time, was declared 2 days before.  The declaration of a FEDERAL state of emergency and request for aid wasn't put into action until THE NIGHT OF.

Paperwork required for additional National Guard troops for an area that commonly has hurricanes hit weren't available for the Governor to sign.  She had to get them sent from Washington.  This can't be accomplished WEEKS in advance?  This was known beforehand. 

Oh yeah, that "de facto" request for National Guard.  It's to mobilize those troops under her guidance.  As fredster laid out for you, it's for them to "make ready".  It's NOT a "send 'em all in, we need help NOW!" issue.

Because it is based on the premise that she hadn't declared a state of emergency, which is false. She requested federal assistance. There are discrepencies over who would have had jurisdiction, but it is not up for debate whether or not that assistance was needed and/or requested.

What's not up for debate is that the assistance was requested the eve of landfall.  You're telling us that "ok.......NOW!" when requesting assistance is ensuring a logistical nightmare and giving an impossible timeline to have that assistance put in motion.  Also, asking for a federal state of emergency to be declared 2 days after you do it for the state level isn't a premise, it's there in black and white for you. 

"The plain English of this document (PDF) shows that states of emergency had been declared on both the state and federal level

YOU show that passage to us.  I've read through it several times.  It doesn't exist in there.  Point it out to us.

before the hurricane hit and that at the state's request the president had given FEMA plenary powers to "identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of these emergency."[/i]

Again, since you declare falsehoods, prove yourself.  Show it to us.  Point it out to us WHERE in that document that at the state's request the president had given FEMA plenary powers to "identify, mobilize, and provide at its discretion, equipment and resources necessary to alleviate the impacts of these emergency."[/i]

Your reference is to the "plain English" of the document.  Point out where or even give us the "plain English" and what portion of the document you interpreted it from.

[Dartful Dodger]

I want a refund on my past years contributions to this waste of an office.

You got one when they CUT THE FUNDING FOR THE LEVEES!

[DrewKaree]

I'll lighten up on Bush the moment I see people the likes of you start holding him accountable for his mistakes. As it stands now, I've got to do double-time since you Bush supporters seem to act like his sh!t don't stink. I'm talking beyond immigration too...since that's about all that seems to get you righties all wound up.

I heard "BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH BUSH.

The question I asked was

Will we EVER see anyone but Bush that you are willing to assign some blame to?

Are we to presume that your answer is no, then?

[Crazy Cooter]

Drew,
FEMA had a plan for this... according to Zakks link:
http://www.fema.gov/news/newsrelease.fema?id=13051

It's FEMA's own website.
It's covers the affected area.
It's Hurricane caused.
It was done 14 months ago.
It's all supposed to be federally funded.

Knowing in advance what was possible, knowing immediately after what the extent of damage was, it should have taken one phone call.

[markrvp]

I'm about to run out so I'll post more later, but I wanted to let you guys know that my father is the County Judge in our county.

[DrewKaree]

I saw a lot of vehicles underwater Drew.  I wasn't involved with the planning, but I'd imagine the busses were for the people to leave from there to somewhere else until it was safe for them to return home.  I don't think anyone imagined that they would be underwater at the end of the day... unless it was your sole purpose to think of worst case scenarios... like FEMA *should* be doing.  And the line of busses *should* have been yet another indication to FEMA that there were a bunch of people that need to be saved, that there were people somewhere close by, and that they were in dire need of assistance because the current plan was "in the drink".

I'm not certain if that link was what I read in the past week or not, but in 2001 when they were setting up the framework, a poll taken of the populace told them that at the very least, a third of the people stated that in just such an instance as what happened, they weren't going to leave their homes no matter what.

You'd figure that since 1965, people would have had time to realize they need to find someplace less prone to disaster to live, or at the very least, get out when one's coming.

I lived 2 hours from the coast in NC.  Both hurricanes that came through my area were forecast well enough in advance that even though we waited until the morning before landfall, we were DEFINITELY getting out of dodge.  I was in Charlotte when the one (Dennis, I think) did what EVERYONE said hurricanes NEVER do.  Back up.  Flooding all along the coast, and to within a 20 minute drive of my house. 

If anything, this'll teach people to rely on themselves, and rely on the government only as a last resort. 

Next stop, Wisconsin State Fair.  Wonder if I'll meet any folks from N.O. at the auction

[Dartful Dodger]

How is that Bush's fault?

Because Gore lost.

[Crazy Cooter]

Based on what I have seen, the officials in Louisiana completely dropped the ball.

[markrvp]

Okay Cooter.

[DrewKaree]

I am terribly saddened by this whole event, but I'm not trying to make myself feel better by trying to harm others because of political bias.  I guess I'm going to have to accept that some people can't understand that sometimes bad things happen that are out of our control and blaming somebody else is the only way they can deal with it.

And with that well made point, I'm out. 

[JB]

FEMA works with the local authorities, not CNN (although this event has shown that somebody from FEMA should be watching CNN & Fox News 24 hours a day during events like this). 

I was just about to say that.
Not just this event, though it was the most signifigant. The media has a nasty tendancy of reporting things before the guys "on the ground" even know they're there. A guy wit the sole job of watching media coverage of the event would be AT LEAST as useful as a radio connection to the local government.