Pinball/Pinmame proof of concept "cab"...

[Crazy Cooter]

He said it will use a dual axis G-meter.  That's why I've been critical of it.  You can't beat on a crt.

[ChadTower]

I'm not familiar with what that is... I can make an educated guess, but how does the meter make its readings?

You can't beat on a CRT inside a cab anyway.  When you nudge the cab, the whole cab moves, saving the CRT from any type of shock.  If you couldn't punch or slap a cab without breaking the CRT then very few video cabs would have survived more than a few weeks on location.

[Crazy Cooter]

Your educated guess is the same as my educated guess  .  No details were provided.

With an upright, it's pretty rare to hit it hard enough to move it.  Pins get moved all the time by beating on them.  Plus a pin gets beat on more often than an upright.  Pretty much constantly during play.  I'd say an upright is like putting a TV on the kitchen counter and smacking the countertop.  A CRT pin is like slapping the TV directly.

[ChadTower]

With an upright, it's pretty rare to hit it hard enough to move it.

[GadgetGeek]

What about one of those thingies they use on touch lamps.   Hook it up to the lockdown bar.  So you just have to touch the lockdown to "nudge".  Downside would be that you couldn't just rest your hand across that bar while playing.

[ChadTower]

You mean run voltage through the lockdown bar... yeah, not a good idea.

[Crazy Cooter]

In interesting note:
http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/mar2005/sb20050331_4850_sb040.htm

It's an interview of Gary Stern regarding pinball machines done on March 31, 2005.  Stern is the last pin maker (besides Foley coming in now).

And what if another company tried to enter the pinball market? "One of two things would happen," Stern says. "One is they would lose all of their money. The second is they might kill us because there's room for one. We're striving towards 10,000 machines a year, our breakeven is 65% or 70% of that. If somebody else came in, they would bring us to breakeven or below -- and maybe kill us both."

[ChadTower]

It's an interview of Gary Stern regarding pinball machines done on March 31, 2005.

[Crazy Cooter]

Yeah, I agree.  I see the reasoning behind what he says though.  If there is only demand for 10,000 units (his optimistic view), then all the manufacturers will have to split that "pie".  He's saying there isn't enough demand to warrant further investment.  Whether that's true... we'll find out.

That link is for Mr. Pinball whom I *believe* is Foley's partner (I'm not sure if I read that somewhere or if I've only thought it to myself).  That's why I don't understand Foley when he says he's been working on this with them for 3-years.  They've only had a license themselves for 1.  Plus they're in Australia, making shipping anything other than software expensive.  I think Mr. Pinball has rights for mechanical reproduction & Foley has the right for electrical reproduction.  I don't think either has exclusive rights, but I could be wrong.  There's a first time for everything  .

[ChadTower]

What Stern is saying is that "there is only room for one, and I want to make sure it is me, so please don't compete with me and potentially put me out of business."  Wuss.  If he can't make better pins than some newcomer then he should be in business.

[Rook3]

The sad fact is that unless you have an arcade in a MAJOR metro center, it takes forever for a pinball to pay for itself.  But all this discussion is neither here nor there.

I've got my prototype almost completely wired up to my IPAC2.

I found a bit of software that allows me to reconfigure the buttons in VPinmame to whatever I want (much like what you can do with regular mame) so I'm on the way.

I used someone else's idea and rigged a small roller microswitch to the coin reject button, which is wired to the "5" (insert coin) button. It's stuck to the location with double sided foam tape. It works pretty well. I don't know how permanent it is, but it's a simple work around for right now.

I still need to find some time to mock up the nudging mechanism.

More lame in progress pics soon.

Russ

[menace]

I'm following this thread with interest since I have almost exactly the same vapourware idea in my head but am waiting to stumble across a gutted pinball cabinet that would make the starting point--I figured that buying legs, lockbars,coin doors, plungers--all separately was going to kill my non-existant budget.  Keep the pics coming!

[Crazy Cooter]

There was a gutted Star Wars on ebay like 2 weeks ago.  The guy had redone the basic cabinet but had no insides.  Had I known...

[Rook3]

Heh, I saw that one too, but in MY opinion he wanted too much for a bare cabinet.

Russ

[melarky]

There's probably a better place for this, but I thought I would post it here since this is the thread I contacted wade from, but I bought some pinball lock down bars from wade, and he was awsome to work with.  It's honest guys like him that make this the best community on the net.  Thanks again wade, the bars came yesterday.

[RayB]

It's time for my 3 cents in this...

A multi-table video pinball machine makes about as much commercial sense as a multi-classic video game upright. Yeah, they might convince a few operators to buy on the basis of "you get many pinball tables but only use up the space of one", but I don't see the public wanting to play this more than a couple times out of curiosity.

Rook, I hope you're on salary and not banking it all on in a profit-share scenario. Those arrangements rarely pay off what the suits claim. (I've been there)

I'd also cut costs wherever possible and that would include the "nudging". I'd add maybe 3 buttons for nudging (one on each side and one on the front) but nothing that encourages actual physical banging and shoving of the unit. I'm not worried about CRT damage like some in here are, but you're still going to see damage over time since that unit is likely to be much lighter than a full size real pinball machine.

Yeah, I'm playing Devil's Advocat here but I have a pretty good feel for these things. On the flip side, if they can partner up with a company in Japan, then maybe there's hope for this, since I could see there being more demand and success in Japan if the price is reasonable.

[RayB]

PS: Whatever happened to THIS: http://www.pinballnews.com/news/virtual.html

[ChadTower]

Dude, think about how much that LCD cost in 2003.

[Rook3]

PS: Whatever happened to THIS:

They're selling mainly in Europe as far as I can tell.

A multi-table video pinball machine makes about as much commercial sense as a multi-classic video game upright. Yeah, they might convince a few operators to buy on the basis of "you get many pinball tables but only use up the space of one", but I don't see the public wanting to play this more than a couple times out of curiosity.

The Ultracade we have makes about $30 a week. Oddly enough, games like Final Fight make the most money on the cabinet. I'm about ready to offer a challenge to anyone who can score 50,000 points on Qix. I've been playing that game exclusively for two weeks now, and the highest I was able to get was 30,050. Darn frustrating game!

I'd also cut costs wherever possible and that would include the "nudging". I'd add maybe 3 buttons for nudging (one on each side and one on the front) but nothing that encourages actual physical banging and shoving of the unit. I'm not worried about CRT damage like some in here are, but you're still going to see damage over time since that unit is likely to be much lighter than a full size real pinball machine.

In MY opinion adding buttons detracts from the "pinball feel." I don't think you'll really see damage to the machine. If they construct it like a real table, with wood blocking in the corners, I don't see damage resulting... unless someone gets REALLY physical with it.

And if they did in my store I'd tell 'em to quit it.

It takes a lot of abuse to damage amusement cabinetry. Most damage occurs if people hit/kick the coin door, speakers, monitor glass, header, etc.

On the route we've had people punch the header on a standard game, breaking the marquee. We've had thieves/vandals bust open coin doors. That's the nature of the business. Some people are just animals. 

Russ

[Rook3]

Couple more bad pics.

First one of the reject button coin switch...



And the location of the IPAC-2 board. I actually turned it 45 degrees to make it easier to see all the connections. Before It was a bear seeing what the connections were on the bottom edge.





Got the auxiliary button issue sort of "fixed." For no apparent reason, the upper right flipper button would NOT allow itself to be reconfigured, so I was forced to go into the table code and do it by hand.

The Shadow (My test table) works almost perfectly now. I still need to wire up the plunger correctly (It's connected to a standard push button inside the cab...) and then tackle the nudging mech.

Russ

[ChadTower]

Hrm, I don't see the pics.

[Rook3]

I can see 'em. I've heard others from time to time have the same problem.

Odd.

Russ

[menace]

Any updates here?  No pressure 

[Rook3]

Sorry, been busy. Plus, I just got a real pinball.

Been thinking about the project though.

Russ

[Mark70]

Anyone thought of something like this.

Drawn in plan.

[ChadTower]

Yeah, that is very similar to something I've suggested (maybe not here, I forget), which is to have a gap like that in the corners themselves, or maybe just a panel in each corner.

[Mark70]

Maybe not realistic but....

"Analyzing the vibration signal from an accelerometer does not always require expensive or complicated analysis equipment. Built in signal conditioning in the model MA15, MA321, MA322 and MA52 accelerometers provides a 4-20mA output that is proportional to the RMS vibration value. This built in signal conditioning means that with only a 4-20mA meter hooked up to your accelerometer you can be monitoring vibration, quickly, easily and cheaply"

http://www.sensotec.com/catpages.shtml

[Mark70]

I'm going to bump this because I really wanted to see where it would go.

[www]

Here is an bump idea so simple you would wish you had of thought of it earlier



or

[bionicbadger]

Man, on a really heavy machine, like Twilight Zone, you'd have to get a running start to nudge with the lockdown bar.

You can still nudge, and need too sometimes like when you hit the clock target to stop the ball from dropping straight down the middle.

I still haven't mastered doing a bangback yet though.  And you REALLY have to hammer the machine for that to work (And I don't want to break mine  )
3MB video here: http://www.ipdb.org/files/2684/Bally_1993_Twilight_Zone_Bang_Back_video.mpg

[RayB]

That's a cool idea WWW

[ChadTower]

It's the same as the plumb bob... the ball will go one way, then bounce back and hit another switch, nudging the thing in multiple directions.

[www]

Whatever 

[maxlamer]

Well being a total "noob" to pinball (never got into pinball sorry) this is just a thought.

Attaching microswitchs to the bottom of the front legs so that when you bump the pinball, you would probably get the legs lifting off the floor ever so slightly (am i wrong?)

If nudged from the front you would get the front legs two legs lift, if from the left, the left front leg at least would lift, and same with the right.  Now with those microswitchs and a few relays you could have a circuit that switchs left-center-right when you bump the cabinet.

[ChadTower]

A good thought... you'd have to account for the fact that the switches are not designed to bear weight, though.

[menace]

Not that i've tried either but I think WWW's wood block looking idea has a higher chance of success--if you are hitting a machine hard enough for the legs to leave the ground you are working too hard 

[RayB]

It's the same as the plumb bob... the ball will go one way, then bounce back and hit another switch, nudging the thing in multiple directions.

Hmm yes I see the problem. Could fixed by using "channels" to keep the ball from bouncing...
Plus it's been mentioned already but there's the "wire" type switches pinball machines use in lanes. There's potential here, it just needs fine-tuning.

[Tim]

How about mercury switches? Mount them on a angle, three of them, nudge forward, right and left. Use a plastic wire holder to secure them to the structure.

This is what I'm going to use once I start on mine.. if the coin door ever gets here.

[menace]

I thought mercury was a "banned" substance for some reason?  have any links to the switches you had in mind? 

[Mark70]

I thought mercury was a "banned" substance for some reason?