So how about that crack Canadian "free health care" system you guys have going?

[patrickl]

We had long waitinglists, but they are largely brought down by showing people which hospitals don't have waitinglists (or a shorter one) for their treatment.

This falls down where I grew up.

[ChadTower]

I would assume that the majority of people live in (or near) cities and would thus have access to several hospitals (I have at least 35 hospitals within half an hour driving). Actually even if it does take a long drive, people will do that if their condition bothers them really (or they will choose to wait, but then it's their choice).

That's not really how Canada is populated.  It always seemed that there are just as many people spread thinly about the extreme suburbs as there are in the major cities.  It's a BIG place with a LOT of open space.

[shmokes]

I don't know what you're smoking Fredster.  I just clicked on the WHO link.  it gives the following for life expectancy:

(Year born/Years lived)

United States

2000/76.8
2001/77.0
2002/77.3
2003/77.0

Canada

2000/79.1
2001/79.3
2002/79.8
2003/80.0

And for healthy life expectancy:

United States

2000/67.4
2001/67.6
2002/69.3

Canada

2000/69.7
2001/69.9
2002/72.0

[ChadTower]

That has a lot more to do with lifestyle than medical care.  Canadians are lower stress and Canada doesn't have nearly the obesity numbers that Americans have.  They don't have the sheer volume of car related deaths that Americans have either.

[shmokes]

That may be so.  It's neither here nor there.  It's only two numbers and there are many that can only be usefully explained by quality of healthcare.  I bring them up specifically (again) only because I can't tell where Fredster is getting his information.

[ChadTower]

I can relate personal experience on this one too... hell, where I grew up, most of the people were like 75+ years old.  They did nothing, just sat around or drove a beat up pickup to someone else's house to sit around.  It sure wasn't medical care keeping them alive since most of them hadn't seen a doctor in decades.

[shmokes]

If only the world knew about you Chad.  We could do away with think tanks and all sorts of research facilities.  It's an incredible waste.

[ChadTower]

Yes, we could slip completely into a world of total abstraction.  No one would have to leave the house, we could learn about the world via studies on websites.  I mean, what is the point of going outside, anything worth experiencing is on the web.

Anyone old enough to fully remember life before the Net will tell you that real life experience is worth far more than reading the same info in a book.

[shmokes]

Except when you make sweeping generalizations about an entire country based on your relatively narrow personal experiences.  Next you'll tell us that Britney Spears isn't popular because not a single one of your friends likes her music.  The statistics are based on personal experiences.  They are just based on millions of personal experiences, rather than just ChadTower's.

[shmokes]

For what it's worth, by the way, I spent about five years after moving away from home with no health insurance.  And growing up dirt poor my parent's did have insurance through my dad's work, but there was a $2000 deductible so my parents all but refused to take us to the doctor.  Many years we never even satisfied the deductible.  My healthcare sucked growing up, and it sucked even worse when I left home.

There.  I win.  I have now proven conclusively that the U.S. healthcare system sucks.   My methods should meet with full approval of ChadTower, as I have now used personal experience, rather than scientific research, to gleen basic truths about an enormous nationwide system.

 

[fredster]

because I can't tell where Fredster is getting his information

From your data.  Look at nationmaster. It looks like Canada is better in some respects, but not in all. There's more to the story than stats man.  37.5% of all stats are made up on the spot.

There are more factors to the story than just these stats. I read editorials both ways.

I hear the same things from Canadians that Chad is talking about.  People in the UK are also dis-satisfied.  However, I hear a lot of good things from Austrailians.  Now do I talk to lots of them? No, but I do talk to a few.

So I'm open to the idea.  I think it's sad that people are working way longer than they have to in order to protect themselves from health risks.  My Uncle was 57, decided to retire early.  He has a triple by pass.  No insurance.  It wiped him out. He was into $110 g of hospital bills.  He lost his house, had to declare bankruptcy. 

That's not right.  I could go into personal stories about how HMO's screw hospitals too. It works both ways.  I just don't know how the American public and the AMA would react to this.  It would fundamentally change the price structure of Doctors.

Bush's approach hasn't been very effective.  I agree that we should take a look at the lawsuits.  That's a big price driver here (that taken from the opinion of 3 doctors that are personal friends of mine).  One retired and said that he brough in $0.7 mil a year, but couldn't pay for his insurance and nurses from that.   He barely cleared $80K.  Not good for a doctor.  Accountants make that.

So I have yet to endorse any move in that direction yet.

my parents all but refused to take us to the doctor

That explains a lot about you man.

[ChadTower]

my parents all but refused to take us to the doctor

That explains a lot about you man.

My inlaws are the same way.  My wife's brothers had some real medical problems that often went untreated until they were practically terminal.  I remember her youngest brother, who has bad asthma to begin with, getting brochitis.  They let him lie on the couch until it was pneumonia.  Then he started vomiting phlegm because there was too much of it in his lungs.  Then he started turning ghost white.  When they finally brought him into the ER, one of his lungs had collapsed and the other was hours away from collapsing.  I think he was like 12.  And these are people WITH insurance.

Some people just won't go to the doctor.  Unfortunately, they also won't take their kids.

[shmokes]

my parents all but refused to take us to the doctor

That explains a lot about you man.

For example?

[ChadTower]

The pez collection!  No one who has been properly medicated would have that type of pez dispenser collection.   

[shmokes]

From your data.  Look at nationmaster.

No help.  I went to Nationmaster's homepage.  Longest living is right there on the list of top graphs on the left-hand side of the page

It says Canadians (#12 on the list) live 80.1 years and Americans (#46 on the list) live 77.71 years.

I'm not, by any means, saying that this one statistic shuts the book on the matter.  I'm just suggesting that you revisit the data as it appears you may have misread it.  It overwhelmingly points in Canada's favor.  I suspect that U.S. hospitals and doctors are truly top-notch, but that our statistics get pulled down overall by all the people with no access to our top-notch services.  So even if Canada's hospitals are inferior, their overall stats are better because they give everyone access to them, and access to mediocre healthcare healthier than no healthcare at all.

But for what we spend in tax money on healthcare for the poor to go to the ER and have medicaid and medicare, we could provide basic coverage to every single citizen in the nation.  Our system is inefficient and wasteful.  And switching to a socialized system like this DOES NOT preclude us from having a parallel private system.  We are already wasting spending the money.  Why not spend it right to get more from it?

[shmokes]

The pez collection!  No one who has been properly medicated would have that type of pez dispenser collection.   

Hmm...I have purchased fewer since I got health insurance...

[fredster]

I suspect that U.S. hospitals and doctors are truly top-notch, but that our statistics get pulled down overall by all the people with no access to our top-notch services.  So even if Canada's hospitals are inferior, their overall stats are better because they give everyone access to them, and access to mediocre healthcare healthier than no healthcare at all.

I see where the data points to some factors being superior.  But it's not a comprehensive study by any means. 

Medicade and medicare patients in the US might be getting the shaft.  My Mom was on Medicare and I had a tough time finding a doctor for her in her later years.  They didn't want to take her, they had "enough medicare" patients. 

You make a point that needs to be explored,

even if Canada's hospitals are inferior,

Why are they inferior?  Natural American Superiority?  Are they inferior because they are now limited on profit making potential?  Have they turned from a thriving business into the freaking post office?

Can I choose a doctor or is one assigned?  Can he be sued for mistakes?  How do I know if he's competent?  What happens when I need care in the middle of the night for a blown appendix? 

What if the doctor won't do a procedure?  Will there be a doctor?

Will people abuse the system if they can suddenly have "free" and unlimited healthcare? Will students turn away from being doctors because there is no profit motive now?

Lots more than just money IMO.  Lots more than some Stats. 

[ChadTower]

Why are they inferior?

[shmokes]

Natural American Superiority?

You're ---smurfing--- hilarious, Fredster.  Seriously, that's about the goofiest thing I've ever seen on these boards.

[Grasshopper]

The doctors are of inferior quality, usually, not because they are not American but because all of the best doctors migrate to the US where they are paid 3x what they are paid in Canada.

That sounds like a massive differential to me. Have you got any statistics to back that up or are you simply relying once again on your own personal experience?

[CheffoJeffo]

Our system has problems, but I don't think it sucks.  I still don't know how much the Canadian system costs.  Overall, they pay more for taxes so it's really hard to tell.  But if you factor in the premiums we pay, well, it might be equal.

To recap (stats previously in thread) ... in the US, you pay more to the private sector for health care AND you pay more to the government for health care.

Cheers.

[CheffoJeffo]

If Canada gets a two tiered system I'll be one of the first in line.  I'd like to send the family to emerg for that fractured collarbone, but when cancer comes a-callin I'd like to pony up and have whatever it is cut out tomorrow, as opposed to waiting till it spreads to the four corners. 

We already have a two-tiered system ... of sorts.

There are plenty of situations where there are public and private healthcare practitioners offering the same services. I know ... been out of pocket pretty deep to jump some big lines.

Since we already have some precendent, it is just silly not to have private health care for some of the big issues. Well, in fact we do  -- it's called the United States Of America -- we just can't buy insurance to fund it ... yet.

PS -- agree 100% with you, in case that was in doubt.

Cheers.

[ChadTower]

That sounds like a massive differential to me. Have you got any statistics to back that up or are you simply relying once again on your own personal experience?

Why start quoting studies now?

[CheffoJeffo]

Why start quoting studies now?

I do admire your consistency!

 

Cheers.