So how about that crack Canadian "free health care" system you guys have going?

[CheffoJeffo]

No, Canada's immigration laws are MUCH tougher than the US'  laws.  I've been through them.  They actually require you to at least pretend you have some way to support yourself and contribute to society.  The US lets anyone in for any reason.  And I think you've misread what I said about people flying into Canada specifically for specialized care:  I said they don't do it, but they do go to the US for that reason, skewing those stats.

RE: Immigration ... I can see where you are going ... not sure the link between immigration policy and health costs is statistically significant, but I can understand the thought process.

RE: Flying into Canada for health care .... I don't think I misread it ... you said people don't fly into Canada for health care and I said they do  ... again, not sure if there is a significant correlation  ... would be interesting to see normalized comparison of ex-patriate medical expenditure in various countries.

Cheers.

[ChadTower]

Obesity in the U.S. is significantly higher than Canada (30% vs. 15% about), but all the numbers show a trend toward equal/better healthcare in Canada.

[shmokes]

I base my opinions on my direct experience.  The data means less to me than what I have seen myself.

A one man survey group.  I bet you get some useful and accurate data about the entire Canadian health care system versus the enitre U.S. health care system from that.

I have serious misgivings about your methodology.

[ChadTower]

I have serious misgivings about your methodology.

So?  I'm not trying to convince anyone, so what does it matter?

I've had medical care in Eastern Canada, Central Canada, all over the Eastern US, and my opinions are based on real experience and the experiences of close family members.

[shmokes]

I'm rubber, you're glue...   

[KenToad]

Wow!

Obesity is actually closer to 50% in the states these days, according to the research I did for an article about High Fructose Corn Syrup, which btw, had the USDA's research team linking HFCS and obesity and of course not banning the shite.

Anyway, great research Shmokes and CheffoJeffo ... I'd like to see some data talking about whether the U.S. has a lot of new immigrants for our health care system.  I know we have non-citizens flying into the country from poor nations to get specialized care, but I don't think that they would get counted by Shmokes numbers. 

Hmmm ... Chad, it seems like limiting your worldview to your and your family's experiences may be just a little ... limited.  I mean this in all seriousness and friendliness.  I actually find your arguments interesting.  I rarely find folks that are willing to consider seriously that their opinions are solely based on "real experience."  It truly is worth pondering.  In some ways we're all doing the same thing, but rarely do we admit it. 

Anyway, thanks for clarifying that you're not trying to convince anyone.  When I write articles, usually I do some research and make no bones about trying to convince people.  Here's a few off-topic things I've tried to convince people:

1.  Avoid trans-fats (Heart Disease, etc.)
2.  Avoid High Fructose Corn Syrup ("metabolic shunting" leading to heart failure and obesity)
3.  Don't use Teflon (Even DuPont now admits that an empty pot will offgas when heated leading to flu-like symptoms for several hours to several days)
4.  Don't drink milk (75% of humans are lactose intolerant and excess protein causes calcium depletion--from Harvard Health Center)
5.  Be vegetarian (Humans share the same digestive system as every other primate and we are the only primate that consumes more than 2% of protein from animal sources--chimpanzee gets max 2%, all others besides humans get zero and die from incredibly fewer preventable diseases)

Okay, so there it is.  My take on health care is that so much is preventable.  We've lost touch with the old ways to take care of ourselves, IMO.

Cheers,
KenToad

[shmokes]

Maybe you are referring to overweight, rather than obese, though it appears the percentage of overweight people is far higher than 50%.  At any rate, just about every source I've seen, including the CDC, World Health Organization and the 1999-2000 National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES), peg the rate of obesity in the U.S. at about 30%.

Obesity seems to be more a more useful measure than overweight because overweight refers to having an excess amount of weight compared to set standards.  That weight can come from fat, muscle or bone.  Obesity refers specifically to having excess fat.  Professional bodybuilders are, for example, very overweight, but not remotely obese.

The numbers, however, show that about 2/3 of Americans are overweight so it's probably safe to assume that over half of Americans are fat, if not obese.

[ChadTower]

Yep, when I had a 33" waist, I was grossly overweight, according to my raw stats.  It doesn't take muscular folks into account at all.

[KenToad]

Maybe you are referring to overweight, rather than obese, though it appears the percentage of overweight people is far higher than 50%. At any rate, just about every source I've seen, including the CDC, World Health Organization and the 1999-2000 National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES), peg the rate of obesity in the U.S. at about 30%.

Obesity seems to be more a more useful measure than overweight because overweight refers to having an excess amount of weight compared to set standards. That weight can come from fat, muscle or bone. Obesity refers specifically to having excess fat. Professional bodybuilders are, for example, very overweight, but not remotely obese.

The numbers, however, show that about 2/3 of Americans are overweight so it's probably safe to assume that over half of Americans are fat, if not obese.

Is it possible that our data don't jive because my numbers don't include children?  I have 75%-85% of American adults being overweight and about half of adults, give or take a few, being overweight, which, as you guys rightly point out, is a pretty weird difference in measurement. 

Also, for children, I found that maybe a quarter are overweight and 10-15% are obese.  Statistically, obese children pretty much never reach healthy weight and overweight children are far more likely to become obese as they get older.

What this means is that this young generation is poised to become the first generation in the history of human evolution to die younger than their parents.  Pretty scary, really.   

I'll check my research again, because you've made me curious if I'm remembering incorrectly.

Cheers,
KenToad

[GameOver]

Hmmm...I haven't done any statistical analysis or scientific research, but I did go to the community pool this afternoon.  My observations tell me that 2/3rds to 3/4trs of the people at the pool this afternoon were FAT! (that's the politically incorrect non-scientific term for obsese and/or overweight).  I can't believe some of them were wearing those bathing suits...

But that's ok, I know most fat people can't help it.  Those Oreo's are just so darn tasty...BUT REALLY...it is a problem, and it appears to be a big problem with the youth particularly in the U.S. today.  Bad eating habits gone unchecked by parents.

And yeah I know most people can't help it.  I guess that's when they go to Canada for the free gastric bypass procedure that's become so popular lately.

[Dartful Dodger]

By that chart Americans are more likely to get sick or hurt which is usually the individuals fault, not the healthcare system.

If the percent of Americans getting sick and hurt is higher, the total spending to get well would also be higher.

I went to Colorado last year and bought cough drops for 3 bucks.  I got an ear infection in Illinois and had to pay a 24 dollar co-pay.

According to the way these charts are set up it would say Illinois is paying 8x as much as Colorado for health care.

The ear infection was the first time I've been in a doctor's office since I was required to have annual check ups in High school, that's almost 20 years, so if I was paying Canadian taxes for health care, I'd be paying for nothing.  Until I am out of work or really sick, the United States should keep our health care system the way it is.

If I get sick, then America should tax the heck out of the rest of you, so I can have free healthcare.

[ChadTower]

See, that is something I don't get.  Why on Earth would an individual not do routine things like yearly physicals?  How would you know if you are developing blocked arteries, or perhaps a treatable cancer?

[Dartful Dodger]

My health is in God's hands, and God has a great medical plan.

[jbox]

My health is in God's hands, and God has a great medical plan.

Actually, God's medical plan is pretty shocking. But his insurance payout is out of this world.

[Dartful Dodger]

 

[shmokes]

I went to Colorado last year and bought cough drops for 3 bucks.  I got an ear infection in Illinois and had to pay a 24 dollar co-pay.

According to the way these charts are set up it would say Illinois is paying 8x as much as Colorado for health care.
 

WTF??  Dartful, you're out of your element.  Don't even try.

God's medical plan sucks.  Ever hear of Leukemia?  And what on Earth makes you believe that God is personally going to protect you and not the more that a million Rwandans in the 90's or the people in Sudan now, or the 11 million Jews and Pols in WWII, or the families in Israel now, or the soldiers in Iraq, or the millions upon millions who are starving to death and dying of malaria and yellow fever and even polio still, for Christ's sake?  Do you have any idea how absurd you sound when you pretend that God cares one way or the other when or how you, the great Dartful Dodger, die?

[Dartful Dodger]

In 35 years I only had to see a doctor once.  I got an ear infection after taking a decongestant, because I didn't have enough faith.  That will not happen again.


Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so.

[jbox]

But those of us with perfect faith have no need for perfect health. 

[ChadTower]

Every time I see that movie, I expect the televangelist to turn around and call him Private Pyle.

As far as a god goes, I was always taught that God provides opportunities for those who provide for themselves.  Work hard and doors open for you... my grandmother always said that God is the one that opens those doors.  Those who do not work hard see nothing but locked doors before them.

I'm not sure I believe in the God part, but my life's experiences certainly bear out the part about hard work, doors, and laziness.

[shmokes]

First it was 20 years.  Which was a lie in itself.  Now it's 35 years.  Doesn't god have something to say about that?

[ChadTower]

Maybe the one time he saw a doctor was his birth.

[fredster]

Shmokes is right.

If there was a God, he'd have been smited.

At least hit with a pool stick.

[Dartful Dodger]

I was required to have annual check ups in High school, that's almost 20 years

17 years, for those of you that need an exact number.

In 35 years I only had to see a doctor once.

By "had to" I meant, I was in such pain or so sick that

[jbox]

For those of you who are still confused...  In the 35 years of my life I have only needed medical attention once.

Huh? Over 90% of the population is in need of-

Oh wait, you're just talking about *physical* doctors!  My bad.

[shmokes]

I was required to have annual check ups in High school, that's almost 20 years

17 years, for those of you that need an exact number.

In 35 years I only had to see a doctor once.

By "had to" I meant, I was in such pain or so sick that I needed medical attention.

For those of you who are still confused...  In the 35 years of my life I have only needed medical attention once.

God hates a liar.

[ChadTower]

This from a man who has the phrase Blasphemy is a victimless crime in every post he makes.

[shmokes]

I work in mysterious ways.

[DrewKaree]

About all (yeah, right!) I'll say about this debate is that it fails as most online debates do because people take anecdotal evidence as representative. For every horrendous ER experience, there are countless experiences that aren't terrible. I've been to the ER, either for myself, my wife, my brother or my kids a couple of dozen times and never had an experience like ChadTower describes, although I don't doubt his description.

My uncle had a pair of strokes recently and his care has been exemplarary and covered, including both short and long term rehab. My mother-in-law started suffering from what appeared to be heart-related trouble. Within a week she had an angiogram, followed by angioplasty the next day. But even these are only anecdotal in nature ... and if they had appeared in some article somewhere, then this discussion would have started very differently (DK wouldn't have even bothered).

Comparing the health care systems in the US and Canada in the rather simplistic manner that the press and politicians do is rather counterproductive -- we have some very fundamental differences in terms of population size, distribution and density. We have different needs and different problems.

For the love of Pete man, if you want to characterize the ruling of the Canadian Supreme Court as "anecdotal" evidence, then your head is permanently buried in the sand!  I can't believe your "so and so said it, so it's hearsay" comment was actually thought out!  In fact, you YOURSELF state that while you've never had an experience like Chad's, you don't DOUBT his experience.  It's not that it doesn't happen, the point is that everyone who agrees with the way Canada runs their health system wants to ignore the elephant in the room....people who are in that system are satisfied with their situation because it's what they're used to.  Taking people used to getting treated for everything "NOW!  RIGHT NOW!" (and are equally satisfied with their treatment) and moving them to a system that has REAL EXAMPLES of waiting for things we simply don't wait for in the U.S. isn't a "solution", it's at it's VERY BEST, a lateral move.  "Anecdotal"?  Supreme Court ruling, report after report, stories from people here FROM Canada such as:

A friend of mine actually wanted results quicker than the standard 8-12 month "wait" and paid $1400. No doubt he Got what he needed...

Chad's story, others here I'm SURE have had similar experiences....it's simply ignoring that it DOES happen.  Given that some stories may be embellished, it still doesn't disprove the FACT that waits for many routine services in Canada happen. 

Going from prompt treatment to days/weeks/months-long waits for treatment WOULD NOT be an "improvement" for the American health system.  What it WOULD be is a degradation of all the current treatment - a "bringing down everyone's level to raise it for some".

Cost.  Just a guess here, and not too wild a guess either, but I'm betting our "costs" also have something to do with the system set up in America to reward those on the wrong end of doctors' mistakes.  Should America also adopt Canada's system for compensation for doctors who screw up?  How about factoring in malpractice insurance as well.  Do any of you think that a doctor having to pay through the nose for malpractice DOESN'T add to the cost you have to pay?  How about the numerous stories about how much illegal aliens are costing us in health care....anyone think THAT doesn't add to the cost?

For anyone who's actually so stump-dense that they think Canada's health care actually IS free, please explain HOW your doctors and hospitals PAY for things such as bandages, scalpels, needles, suture thread, ALL the bed linens the hospitals use, how the doctors and nurses are paid, etc.  Until that happens, you sound so uninformed and apathetic....the crackpot on the corner warning us all of the "end times" that are coming tomorrow/next week/next month.

I'll be moving to Canada soon, and fighting for a new medical initiative - the treatment requires arcade parts, and lots of them.  Since your health care is "free", I'll be building a cab for zip, zero, nada. 

Some simple thinking about things that happen in America can and do easily explain the small differences in the stats shmokes gives us...as well as a simple perusal of those stats.

[DrewKaree]

So the rich and affluent Canadians still have access to first-rate medical services while the lower class has to rely on public facilities where the long waits and sub-standard care mimics the Emergency Room system in the U.S. 

While reading this, it also occurred to me that some of those "rich and affluent" Canadians coming to the U.S. for these services might be causing us the same problem as an illegal alien.  Are our collection agencies authorized to wreck a Canadian's credit record for services incurred in another country and not paid for?  I know it won't be popular to bring it up, but since we're talking about comparing costs, you'd have to be a lunatic to think it doesn't EVER happen. 

And as a human being with a conscience and a modest amount of empathy, it bothers me that the richest nation in the world claims it can't provide a decent level of health care for all its citizens.

For those of us who know you can't be turned away if you require health care, and it will most definitely be "decent" or better care you will recieve, are we to assume that since our views are different from yours, that you believe us to NOT have a conscience or modest amount of empathy?

Thats great for you now, because you can afford it. What if you couldn't? What if you didn't have the money to pay for insurance, or out of pocket. Ask Paige, who just wrecked his moped. He could have been screwed over hardcore.

Its funny how those with money don't give an f about those without.

It's funny how you've assigned two points to me based on nothing other than your dislike of my views.  Not only would I be considered someone WITHOUT money, if you knew me at all, you'd know that indeed, I DO give an "f" about those without.  It'd also surprise you to do some reading on the topic yourself.  Patrick has accused me of doing so, yet in all the reading, and including some links from here, I've learned that our poor in America (you know, the people everyone WANTS to help, and who seem to be getting the short end of the stick medically) are entitled to BETTER care FOR FREE AS WELL, as Canadians.  Check it out yourself, since I'm interpreting you to think you "give an f" moreso than I.

As a person on disability, it always amazes me how flippant people who can afford health care in the US are towards those of us of limited means.

Societal class prejudice is the new racism. 

Please see the above comments about "affording" things.  Also, please help me and point to where you interpreted me to be flippant towards those with limited means. 

You're leveling some awully serious accusations about something that should concern everyone, but somehow you're trying to tie discussing it and different opinions on the subject to racism.  When we see stories of lynchings, beatings, removal of rights as a human being of "those with lesser means", that charge will have merit.  Presently, your charge is a gross exaggeration based on emotion.

[DrewKaree]

Drew, you really should learn to look at things from both sides before you actually take sides (or let yourself be drawn to a side from reading single sided bit of propaganda).

As incomprehensible as you seem to think my views are, I find it equally so that you believe people with opposing views come to them from reading single-sided bits of propaganda.  I guess you're as guilty yourself of being as impressionable as you seem to think anyone disagreeing with you HAS to be 

[DrewKaree]

I understand that you've been brainwashed into having a kneejerk aversion to the word
"socialize", but it's not a foreign concept to Americans.  How would you like it if you called 911 and said, "There's an intruder in my house," and they said, "We take Visa, Mastercard, AmEX and Discover.  We can't send anyone out there without a valid credit card and payment in advance."  How about if your house was on fire?  Is protecting property so important that we must have socialized systems in place to make sure that everyone's property has basic protection from harm, but a person's basic health, a person's life only needs protection if they can afford it?

You're comparing apples and hand grenades.  If a fire breaks out in my house, it has the potential to wipe out vast chunks of the city if left to burn.  If someone decides since his girlfriend broke up with him that he's going to take a gun and start wiping out as many people as he can until he runs out of bullets, that could take quite a while.  The guy down the block who kills for years on end (BTK, anyone?) and would continue to do so without police action...the drunk leaving the bar hoping to make it home safe not realizing he's behind the wheel and he's a "loaded" weapon.....and so on.

You're equating personal health with public safety. 

You DO have a point, and I WOULD agree, with the dolts who have a car alarm or home burglar alarm who can't figure out how to work those things being charged for Officer Squarenuts to toodle on out to check and make sure nothing actually happened. 

[CheffoJeffo]

I thought twice about posting in response to this, but I think you're (DK) mischaracterizing the decision and my remarks...

First off, I am completely in support of supplementary private health insurance (after all, the decision was about insurance) in Canada -- while it may not be apparent here, this has been a long-held belief of mine. We already have private health care providers ... and it has cost me well into 5-figures out of pocket because insurance coverage is not available for them.

I am not opposed to the decision at all (I am hugely in favour of it), but you are reading way too much into it. The decision WAS based on anecdotal evidence, as it should have been since it dealt with the Charter Of Rights (which, obviously, is applied at the individual level).

At this point, I should mention that the decision has already been suspended  (guess the CSM missed that part).

Excessive waiting periods DO happen (as I said, I used to be an actuary ... I kinda get the statistics part of things)  and since most of us live within 200km of the US, supplementary coverage that would allow treatment in the US would solve most of our problems (people could get treatment AND we would be relieving the pressure on the system) and send money to our friends to the south.

Next, *I* never argued that the US should try to use the Canadian system -- it wouldn't make any sense ... think I've said stuff to that effect a few times.

One thing I find baffling is how you can use REAL EXAMPLES (tm) of people waiting in Canada, but ignore the real examples (no tm?) of people who can't get medical coverage or treatment (e.g. a REALLY long wait) in the US.

Are we Canadians more real ?

Cheers.

[CheffoJeffo]

Cost.  Just a guess here, and not too wild a guess either, but I'm betting our "costs" also have something to do with the system set up in America to reward those on the wrong end of doctors' mistakes.  Should America also adopt Canada's system for compensation for doctors who screw up?  How about factoring in malpractice insurance as well.  Do any of you think that a doctor having to pay through the nose for malpractice DOESN'T add to the cost you have to pay?  How about the numerous stories about how much illegal aliens are costing us in health care....anyone think THAT doesn't add to the cost?

I think you hit this one right on the head ... and it is a stellar example of why Canadian health care would never work in the US ... not too mention a good parallel to the reason that the price of BigMacs has been on the rise [EDIT ... this didn't come out right, but I was going for McDonalds coffee litigation driving the price of BigMacs] ... ;-D

Cheers.

[DrewKaree]

There's a problem in America.  We DO want to help those less fortunate.  Those considered "poor" here get better help than even most with insurance get.  The people getting screwed are the people above the "poor" line but below the "it's affordable for them" line (whatever that line is). 

Those who are above that line by a tad have a distinct DISincentive to try harder....it may get them a touch more money, but they'll pay all that "extra" out in health insurance.  Hitting those who can "afford" it drops the level they can now "afford", bringing THEIR quality of care DOWN!  So by helping others, now THEY have a DISincentive to try to gain back that which they'd give up because those who can "really afford it" are those which are looked to in order to make up the disparity for everyone.

All of these lines are arbitrary, and don't take into account people such as Arcadiac, who said he's "technically" below poverty, but I'm betting it's due to something such as a house, stock holdings, pensions or something similar that keeps him above that arbitrary line. 

As long as everyone continues to be a human being, there isn't a solution that will solve this problem, and if the solution is to have the government take care of it, then we might as well send the money off to a band of monkeys in the Congo, since they'll take care of it just as well and spend it just as wisely.

[shmokes]

Holy Cow.  Drew's back, LMAO.

Okay, enough with the Canada's system is free, stuff.  It's a strawman.  Nobody here has said that Canada's system is free (have they?).  I know you'd like to think that the people on the side of socialized medicine believe this silly notion, so you can triumphantly prove to us that somebody always has to pay but, in actuality, the people on the side of socialized medicine have not only stated clearly that Canada's system costs money, but we have stated exactly how much Canada's system costs compared to the U.S.

Please, in case that wasn't enough:

WE ARE FULLY AWARE THAT CANADIANS PAY FOR HEALTHCARE!!!  _{They just pay significantly less}

Was that loud enough?  We cede this point to you.  It's yours.  It always was.  Let's put it to bed now and not speak of such things again....at the very least until someone actually makes the claim that healthcare in Canada isn't ever paid for.

And it ain't apples and oranges.  When someone isn't treated for the flu they remain contageous longer.  When someone isn't treated for HIV they remain FAR more contageous than those who are treated.  When an epileptic has no access to meds he finds himself having a grand mal seizure and rolls at 70 mph on I-15 in the middle of Salt Lake (this happened to my brother).  When a person isn't treated for hypertension they find themselves in the E.R. receiving a $100,000 bypass surgery on the tax-payer's dime.  Most STDs are 100% curable.  When they go untreated, though, they spread.  Like fire.  Public health is a public safety issue.

I gotta sign out of the debate for a while, though.  I'm taking a road trip to San Francisco and wine country tomorrow morning.  See y'all Tuesday.

[DrewKaree]

Okay, enough with the Canada's system is free, stuff.  It's a strawman.  Nobody here has said that Canada's system is free (have they?).  I know you'd like to think that the people on the side of socialized medicine believe this silly notion, so you can triumphantly prove to us that somebody always has to pay but, in actuality, the people on the side of socialized medicine have not only stated clearly that Canada's system costs money, but we have stated exactly how much Canada's system costs compared to the U.S.

I'd like to say this is true, but it's not.  It may seem like an exercise in semantics to you, but the more people CONTINUE to say these things, the more it gets "accepted" and people start to look at it as if it WERE.  It's the same as the system we have here in America.  Some look at it as if "poor" folks get health care for "free".  YOU are one of a few who have understood this, but talk to Joe Onthestreet and ask him what he knows about Canadian health care and I'd bet you dollar to cholesterol-laden donuts that he'll tell you "I wish we had free health care like THEY do".  Understanding that it's paid for and acknowledging it or at the very least NOT telling us "that'd be free here" are two VERY different things.  Check this very thread out - I refer to comments I've read around here in past discussions, and true to my point, we get the following:

It's the big debate these days (here in Canada): To allow private hospitals (ie: those that charge $$).

I lived in the US for a while. General visits to a physician were mostly covered by my employee medical benefits, but my one trip to the ER for stomach pains cost me over $1000 and all that came out of it was I got a painkiller and was told to go home and rest. Nice. That was $1000 I couldn't afford to waste.

Here in Canada, that ER trip would have been free.

After living both in the US and Canada it comes down to this--if you have a job with benefits, the US system is better with respect to prompt service and individual attention--I never had the need for major surgery so i can't comment on that.  If you don't have a job or can't afford care, canada is better--you will get your basic needs looked after free of charge and any major operations will also be performed without banrupting you (although the wait for some operations may be lengthy)

And yeah, I know the joke in this reply, but Joe Onthestreet DOESN'T

And yeah I know most people can't help it.  I guess that's when they go to Canada for the free gastric bypass procedure that's become so popular lately.

Please, in case that wasn't enough:

WE ARE FULLY AWARE THAT CANADIANS PAY FOR HEALTHCARE!!!  _{They just pay significantly less}

It's ironic.  The tax cuts that gave us "enough to buy a new muffler" were laughed off as insignificant, but when you're using similar numbers when talking about health care, you view it as "significantly less".

Was that loud enough?  We cede this point to you.  It's yours.  It always was.  Let's put it to bed now and not speak of such things again....at the very least until someone actually makes the claim that healthcare in Canada isn't ever paid for.

It's been claimed.  I've shown it to be.  Until people DO put it to bed and not speak of such things, it's NOT loud enough, and more people need to say exactly what you just did say, because too many Americans are looking at Canada as the solution PRECISELY because they look at them as having "FREE" health care. 

And it ain't apples and oranges.  When someone isn't treated for the flu they remain contageous longer.  When someone isn't treated for HIV they remain FAR more contageous than those who are treated.  When an epileptic has no access to meds he finds himself having a grand mal seizure and rolls at 70 mph on I-15 in the middle of Salt Lake (this happened to my brother).  When a person isn't treated for hypertension they find themselves in the E.R. receiving a $100,000 bypass surgery on the tax-payer's dime.  Most STDs are 100% curable.  When they go untreated, though, they spread.  Like fire.  Public health is a public safety issue.

The flu-spreader....so since it's a public safety issue, the cops should arrest them?  The HIV carrier - arrest them, or bring in the fire department to hook up a 4" line and hose the disease right outta them?  The guy with the STD's?  I agree, we SHOULD arrest the guy if he's spreading 'em around knowingly, but then again, if you're contracting an STD, I guess all that edumacation we're throwing money at hasn't helped much, since abstinence would have worked a lot better than what they're preaching in the schools.  Arrest them all?  OK, I give.  Lets do that. 

Your brother had a seizure.  He had NO access to meds?  Like your query about Chad's story, why didn't your brother have anything with him?  Would the police or fire department have been able to do anything to prevent this?  Arrest him and throw him in jail?  That wouldn't have worked.  Profiling.  Can't do it.  Epileptics all over the place will be up in arms.

Lastly, it's interesting.  Health care in America is said to be so expensive that many are underinsured or simply not insured at all, and we should be looking to switch to something else.  FOREVER and a day now, those who believe as I do that Canada IS NOT the answer have been saying that everyone in America has health care, that the debate is about INSURANCE, and here you go telling us that indeed, it's true.  "When a person isn't treated for hypertension they find themselves in the E.R. receiving a $100,000 bypass surgery on the tax-payer's dime." 

Donnie DonutEater is responsible for his weight, going to the doctor, and getting the medication he needs.  Both my parents had that problem.  One of them still has it.  Personal choice had a lot to do with that, as the one who still has it is a heart attack waiting to happen and doesn't seem to care.  I also got to see how much such medications cost.  One of my parents works for the state, and picking up their meds, I was told and had the figures laid out for me how much cheaper generic drugs would be, and the drugstore definitely WOULD be switching to the generics and dropping the "name brand" drug shortly, and to tell my parents.  If they can't "afford" these meds, I'll be pointing out things they're pissing their money away on that they need to stop so they can.  Shouldn't be hard.  Don't go out to eat one week, and buy your meds for the month.  One less trip to the Wal-Mart will work too.

Let's say Donnie DonutEater doesn't care for himself, though.  What happens?  Is he turned away because, as you said about the police, when he was wheeled into the ER he didn't happen to have his Amex or Visa with him?  No, indeed, he DOES receive health care. 

Oh, and I left out the possibility that Donnie DonutEater might be one of our friends from around the globe.  Sasha SchnitzelEater is working in the country illegally, and lo and behold, after eating one too many schnitzel's, he's in the hospital too.  How about that!  HE gets treated too!  Isn't our uncaring heartless American system turning people away?  One would have to wonder then, how are our costs INCREASING since no one can "afford" to go to the doctor.   We DO have Canada's system in place, but America's dirty little secret is that we'd go broke from lawsuits if we went all the way and implemented the regression necessary to even it up.

I gotta sign out of the debate for a while, though.  I'm taking a road trip to San Francisco and wine country tomorrow morning.  See y'all Tuesday.

I'm calling the fire department if your hitch comes loose when you sneeze and swerve all over.  When they pull you over, they'll slap an STD on you so fast it'll make your.....something.....hurt.

[shmokes]

Okay, first Drew....you could have saved yourself a lot of time if you had understood my post correctly.  Just because public health is a public safety issue doesn't mean that the police or fire dept. would take care of it.  Our argument breaks down like this:

1- I infer from your initial post that you believe socialism is bad.  I point out fundamental parts of our society that are competely socialized and, I might add, that you probably wouldn't want any other way.

2- You suggest that those socialized systems don't apply correctly because those systems deal with public safety.

3- I illustrate that public health is a matter of public safety.

4- You somehow take this to mean that I think that public health should be dealt with by the police or fire dept.   

That's a pretty big leap. 

Drew, you simply aren't giving people credit.  They ain't that dumb.  Every one of those people you quoted knows that the services are paid for with tax money and that the tax money is paid by the citizens of the country.  When RayB says, "in Canada, that ER trip would have been free."  He knows that it comes from tax money.  It's exactly the same as if someone asked you how much you're charged to have the police come out to your house after a vandalism.  It would be perfectly reasonable to say, "We don't get charged anything.  Police visits are free."  People just aren't that dumb, Drew.  They're not.  Walk up to any stranger.  Say, "Hey, did you know that in Canada EVERY single person has access to Health Care.  They can go to the doctor, the emergency room, the pharmacy.  They aren't charged a dime at the Doctors office.  The doctors get paid, though.  Do you have any idea how they do that?"  I guarantee you that anybody who doesn't already know anything about Canada's system will say, "uhhh.....I don't know....taxes?"

As far as meds, my brother's are $10 per pill.  That's $300/mo.  He got laid off from his job and has two kids.  His wife was bringing in almost the entire household income for a little over four weeks waitressing.  I don't mean this as an appeal to emotion because it's my brother.  It's just one of a million examples of how your neat little world where a person just "don't go out to eat one month" or "go to walmart one less time" is a load of crap.  How in the hell is someone making $6/hour supposed to afford $300/mo meds?  By going to walmart less?  c'mon....

Now you're going to have to explain to me in more detail what in hell you're talking about when you are comparing my statement about Canadians paying less in health care with Bush's tax rebates.  Your coming out of left field.  I feel like you have a point and just got sidetracked or something.  Anyway, I don't know what you mean by insignificant.  I think they were significantly irresponsible, but I still don't see how these things are related.  Canadians pay less than half what we pay for healthcare.  Period.  They pay less private, out-of-pocket expenses (way less) and they pay less in taxes than we do for healthcare.  They do.

On ER:  It's simply disingenuous to say that America provides basic healthcare to all its citizens based on our ER being unable to refuse service.  A number 1, the financial consequences of making use of the ER make it prohibitive in practice.  It's like saying, "look how charitable I am.  I will hand over $5000 in cash to any impoverished person who approaches me," when in reality you do give them $5000 in cash, but you also chop off  both their legs and arms.  B number 2, I am concerned with the inefficiency and cost of our crappy healthcare system.  The fact that we refuse to help with cheap-ass generic hypertension meds, and will ignore a growing problem until it turns into a crisis and THEN pay for a $100,000 surgery boils my blood.  It's wasteful. 

Drew, ask yourself how America manages to spend more, per capita, in tax money for public healthcare than Canada when uninsured Americans (virtually the only ones who have access to that tax money) are only allowed to go to the Emergency room.  hint:  the answer is contained within the question

[DrewKaree]

Drew, you simply aren't giving people credit.

I give them all the credit in the world for knowing the difference and still choosing to use the words they do.

They ain't that dumb. 

See above for the response to that.

Every one of those people you quoted knows that the services are paid for with tax money and that the tax money is paid by the citizens of the country.  When RayB says, "in Canada, that ER trip would have been free."  He knows that it comes from tax money.  It's exactly the same as if someone asked you how much you're charged to have the police come out to your house after a vandalism. 

If I EVER heard anyone say their police visits are free, I'd agree with you, however, the common complaint is that Officer Squarenuts is hassling them, and "after all, I pay their salary". 

It would be perfectly reasonable to say, "We don't get charged anything.  Police visits are free." 

To dismiss my point, you may find it reasonable.  Real world experience, and your very own dealings demonstrate that it isn't spoken of like that, yet when speaking of health care, it is.  It's harmful and misleading to the very people who fit in the "I don't fit in any category that will get me health care" niche.  It's purposeful for that very reason, however much you wish to dismiss it.

People just aren't that dumb, Drew.  They're not.  Walk up to any stranger.  Say, "Hey, did you know that in Canada EVERY single person has access to Health Care.  They can go to the doctor, the emergency room, the pharmacy.  They aren't charged a dime at the Doctors office.  The doctors get paid, though.  Do you have any idea how they do that?"  I guarantee you that anybody who doesn't already know anything about Canada's system will say, "uhhh.....I don't know....taxes?"

Explain why, then, the taxes Canadians are charged are the dirty little secret no one talks about when holding up their system as a model America should be striving to exemplify.  Your argument would hold water if the American public were being informed of the cost to each of them SIDE BY SIDE with the utopia Canada's system is described as.  Look at this VERY thread!  It can't even be pointed out about the waits for general services as a con to their system!  Why not?  Because it DOESN'T SELL, and until people compare apples to apples, ("free" system compared to America's current "solution") it's a valid point. 


See ya on Tuesday - I'm off to work and you're off to Frisco.

[CheffoJeffo]

Explain why, then, the taxes Canadians are charged are the dirty little secret no one talks about when holding up their system as a model America should be striving to exemplify.  Your argument would hold water if the American public were being informed of the cost to each of them SIDE BY SIDE with the utopia Canada's system is described as.  Look at this VERY thread!  It can't even be pointed out about the waits for general services as a con to their system!  Why not?  Because it DOESN'T SELL, and until people compare apples to apples, ("free" system compared to America's current "solution") it's a valid point. 

Drew, how is it that you can write something eloquent and on-target, then come up with this ??

Canadians pay less in taxes to support health care than Americans pay in taxes to support health care. [I think we should be spending more and have access to private supplemental insurance, but these are the facts of the tax matter.]

There is no dirty little secret.

Cheers.

[fredster]

I've heard that both ways.  I'd like to see the facts on that.

What do Canadians pay in taxes?  I talk to them and they say that they pay more?

I know they pay an income tax that's less than the US / State taxes, but dont they also pay a 17% sales tax on top of that?

I'd be for a federal health care system if I thought the government could actually manage it.  We have enough trouble with Medicare and Medicade now.

I pay about $47 a week just for an 80/20 plan.  No vision.  I pay $15 for dental.  I'd pay that to the fed without blinking if I had some assurance that the doctors wouldn't form a freaking union and strike.

They'd turn from private business to a govenmental agency.  You'd have to fill out triplicate forms to see them.  That's what I'm afraid of, taking the drive out of the medical system to do more.