When was pong removed from mame?

[Popcorrin]

I am trying to add pong to my cabinet and was trying to figure out the easiest way to do it.  Does anyone know when it was removed from mame or I think I read somewhere that nonamemame had it.
Thanks

[jcrouse]

Not sure exactly but it was a LONG time ago.

John

[DaemonCollector]

The official versions that had it are the only ones not available for download on mame.net

[thetered]

What's the big deal about pong, why was it pulled?

[SirPoonga]

Your question is sorta answered here
http://www.mame.net/mamefaq.html#m17

Basically, pong has to be simulated, not emulated.

[jelwell]

Thankfully, it is not longer "illegal" to add these roms back in. Many of the "Extra Rom" builds of MAME add Pong as well as other "rollback" roms that were removed from MAME for various reasons. Here's one that's been around forever:
http://misfitmame.mameworld.net/

Joseph Elwell.

[jelwell]

Basically, pong has to be simulated, not emulated.

Of course, that's only true in MAME. Pong can be emulated. The MAME faq even spells out what would have to happen to emulate Pong:

The only way you can emulate a game is to simulate all the components. All those chips weren't really created in C.

And that's exactly what this guy did. He emulated at a lower level, which the MAME faq calls:

Signal level (simulating in/out of actual pins of ICs). This would be necessary to allow older games like PONG into MAME, because the association of ICs on the board IS the game logic, not just following a set of instructions from a ROM.

Joseph Elwell.

[SirPoonga]

Mame deals with games that need roms.
Pong doesn't use a rom.  Those mames that have pong in them either have an empty zip named pong.zip so something is there when mame looks or go the extra step and just for that game don't look for the roms.

The only way you can emulate a game is to simulate all the components. All those chips weren't really created in C.

And that's exactly what this guy did. He emulated at a lower level, which the MAME faq calls:

Incorrect, you read that statement incorrectly.  Since pong doesn't have roms you can;t program it.  Most PIC developers use PICBASIC or a form of C and a compiler to make the games.  Very few will write the entire program in assembly since the higher level language compilers are there.  That programs gets loaded into the rom. 

As the quote says "the only way you can emulate a game is to simulate all the components."  You need ot simulate the discrete logic parts.  This means pong is just putting the right set of electornics together, no programming as there are no prgrammable chips.

As mame faq says "That depends entirely on the definition of those words. "  so it depends on your definition of emulate and simulate.  According to mame's definition pong is simulated.

Either way since that's MAME'S definition it will not ever get added to mame again.  So stop beating the dead horse

[Popcorrin]

What do u think is the easiest way for a person to add pong to their cabinet is?

[jelwell]

The only way you can emulate a game is to simulate all the components. All those chips weren't really created in C.

And that's exactly what this guy did. He emulated at a lower level, which the MAME faq calls:

Incorrect, you read that statement incorrectly.

[SirPoonga]

Ok, I understand you now.

I read the Tickle page.  Still, according to the mame faq it's simulation.  Again, it's one's definition of emulation and simulation.  It is a pretty fine line between the definitions of those words anyway

[juggle50]

download misfitmame.  It has pong on it.

[Howard_Casto]

The mame pong driver totally sucks.  It's very inaccurate.  I've seen pong flash games that represent the game better. 

Symantics aside that was the REAL reason pong was removed, namely the guy who did the driver didn't do such a great job with the simulation.  So it isn't pong, it's a "pong-like game".

[Minwah]

I wonder why the MAME devs 'simulate' audio in some games?  By their definition they shouldn't be doing it as it isn't accurate, and playing the game isn't important etc etc...

Unfortunately while I like the official MAME mission statement, the dev's only stick to it when it suits them IMO.

[Tiger-Heli]

Unfortunately while I like the official MAME mission statement, the dev's only stick to it when it suits them IMO.

I used to feel the same way, but I think it probably varies from dev to dev.  I know from some of Haze's comments on here, that he is pretty close to what the mission statement says (wanted hi-score support disabled, for example), but some of the other dev's might not be.

[Minwah]

I used to feel the same way, but I think it probably varies from dev to dev.  I know from some of Haze's comments on here, that he is pretty close to what the mission statement says (wanted hi-score support disabled, for example), but some of the other dev's might not be.

Yeah sure.  On the whole it is pretty good, I was just in a moaning mood this morning...

[Haze]

I wonder why the MAME devs 'simulate' audio in some games?  By their definition they shouldn't be doing it as it isn't accurate, and playing the game isn't important etc etc...

Unfortunately while I like the official MAME mission statement, the dev's only stick to it when it suits them IMO.

Sound circuits are usually simple, isolated circuits which can be simulated with a reasonably high level of accuracy by hooking up simulations of the basic components they're made from.

Thats a long way from simulating complex circuits needed to run the logic, video, and sound for an entire game, done correctly that would be infinitely slower than the slowest CHD game in mame, and overwhelmingly complex, not to mention a legal grey area (who would own the rights to the simulation of a game which had no roms? we'd probably have to create some scripting language and store the lists of what links to what externally as the hardware *is* in effect the game in these cases)

and yes, things vary from dev to dev, Mame is a project worked on by individuals.

[Tiger-Heli]

Haze, now that I have your attention, I have a couple of questions regarding this.

Thats a long way from simulating complex circuits needed to run the logic, video, and sound for an entire game, done correctly that would be infinitely slower than the slowest CHD game in mame, and overwhelmingly complex,

I assume you are familiar with the tickle rebound emulator.  It's not Pong, but close (and as you said, slower than the slowest CHD game).  Could something like this in theory be added to MAME, IYHO, as it is closer to emulation than simulation.

not to mention a legal grey area (who would own the rights to the simulation of a game which had no roms? we'd probably have to create some scripting language and store the lists of what links to what externally as the hardware *is* in effect the game in these cases)

I don't follow you on the "legal gray area".  If it is legal to emulate a 68000 or Z80 or similar processor for a rom-based game, why wouldn't it be legal to emulate a bunch of 7400 and 7402 IC's and the interconnecting wiring?

[Minwah]

Sound circuits are usually simple, isolated circuits which can be simulated with a reasonably high level of accuracy by hooking up simulations of the basic components they're made from.

I see

Thats a long way from simulating complex circuits needed to run the logic, video, and sound for an entire game, done correctly that would be infinitely slower than the slowest CHD game in mame, and overwhelmingly complex, not to mention a legal grey area (who would own the rights to the simulation of a game which had no roms? we'd probably have to create some scripting language and store the lists of what links to what externally as the hardware *is* in effect the game in these cases)

Pretty interesting this really.  Would it be illegal to get say a tv toy with no roms (like the old pong-esq games) and simulate/emulate the hardware on a pc, and then make that available to people?

This is kindof what MAME does I suppose, just with some missing components (roms).

[Tiger-Heli]

Pretty interesting this really.  Would it be illegal to get say a tv toy with no roms (like the old pong-esq games) and simulate/emulate the hardware on a pc, and then make that available to people?

Isn't that basically MESS?  (Atari 2600, 5200, 7800, Lynx, Jaguar, NES, SNES, ColecoVision, etc.)

[Minwah]

Isn't that basically MESS?  (Atari 2600, 5200, 7800, Lynx, Jaguar, NES, SNES, ColecoVision, etc.)

Yes that's true   And those companies (who are still going) presumably don't mind (or can't help) the emulation of their systems.

So I suppose you're right, it shouldn't really matter...but who knows.

[SirPoonga]

Glas Haze beat me to it.  Difference between pong and asteroids, pong needs to be entirely simulated.  Asteroids needs partial, still uses roms though.  So it's like comparing apples to apples, one being a granny smith and the other a red delicious   Still in the same category but very different.

[Howard_Casto]

About the legal issues.  Afaik, if a company makes schematics available then it's perfectly legal to simulate them, as long as you don't physically make them.  The U.S. patent office doesn't allow you to patent an idea, rather a physcal product that uses said idea.  As long as the idea is still floating out in the ether, you can think up new ways all you want. 

With that being said, I'm suprised nobody has suggested just building a pong board.  They sell kits all the time and with modern circuitry, you can manage to make the cb small enough to fit inside a controller.  Then get a set of 360 pots from rat shack and make a small enclosure for both paddles.

Also this is the only practical way to play pong.  Think about it, with most pong versions you need two players that means two paddles.  Not two spinners, two paddles.  I dare you to find a mame cab with two paddles on it.