Asteroids monitor

[asteroidsneil]

Anyone have a source for asteroids monitors?  I've got the full sized one, but my local Arcade repair tech can't locate a monitor.  Are there generic ones out there that will work?

Any help is greatly appreciated.

thanx~

Neil

[pcb]

Keep an eye out on ebay.  Or post on the USENET newsgroup rec.games.viceo.arcade.collecting.  Someone is bound to have one there.

Best,

 - Mike -

[Ken Layton]

New monitors for those games are not manufactured. You must buy a used one.

[bjk7382]

New monitors for those games are not manufactured. You must buy a used one.

So why don't they make modern day vector games? I am sure they could probably make a reliable color vector monitor these days.

[danny_galaga]

wouldnt exactly be a huge market. other than some old arcade games and some kinda fancy colour radar what would they be used in?

[bjk7382]

other than some old arcade games and some kinda fancy colour radar what would they be used in?

I was talking about NEW games using original concepts, and new color vector monitors. Not remaking old games. They still make raster games, but not vector.

[SirPoonga]

Note, asteroids can take either the electrohome g05 (go7 is color, right?) or Wells 19V2000.  See my asteroids thread in the arcade misc

[ChadTower]

They can take others if you're willing to adapt as necessary.

[SirPoonga]

Yep, Atari's "The BOOK" lists several.  The B&W monitor faq at the Asteroids Repair Encyclopedia site even has instruction for using a WG 6100 color monitor for asteroids (which I htink would ROCK in my cabinet, then use ZVG to display mame on a real vector monitor).

[ChadTower]

Eh, I've seen b/w games run on a color monitor, and you lose a LOT because the intensity of the high Z range signal goes away.  The explosions don't have that POP to them and that is part of what makes the vectors so cool.

I have a spare Sega color that I'm probably going to VectorMAME, but if the b/w games don't look like they should I will definitely build another with a b/w and split the games off into two VectorMAME cabs.

[Matthew Fisher]

I couldn't agree more about the B/W games.  Just not the same.  My vectormame has a WG6100 and what is really missing for me are the "trails" that linger on the phosphors as an object moves.  It's really noticable in a real Asteroids and NOT noticable on a WG6100.  I'm guessing the shadow mask cuts down the intensity on a color vector, which unfortunately is unavoidable.  For me, though, it's good enough.  The only B/W game I really like is Red Baron, and it looks OK.  On the color games, though, it STILL blows away raster, no matter what the settings.  Just wait till I get the Amplifone going... 

The only way I could see a new vector game coming out now is if someone decided to add a realistic vector radar screen to a flight game, or something along those lines.  Even then, it wouldn't be the main monitor.  I think the main advantage vectors had over rasters (for a while) was that you didn't need nearly as much porcessing power to draw the screen, so the games could be faster and more frantic with more "stuff" on the screen.  Think Tempest v. Pac-Man. 

Yes, keep your eye on RGVAC and ebay.  Working B/W's (G05's or 19V2000's) seem to have dipped below $200 on a pretty consistent basis. 

[ChadTower]

No way, there will be new vector games, just not mass produced.  Trust me on this.

[Matthew Fisher]

Do you have a secret you're not telling?

[ChadTower]

Not hardware wise, no, but I've been slowly working closer to being able to get substantive coding done on a new vector game.  One of those little side projects, you know.

[SirPoonga]

If REZ from the dreamcast could be converted to vector...  Should be doable except for those few surfaces that are shaded.

Unless it becomes trendy I don't see vector games happening.  It'd have to be trendy like cell shading.  For awhile it seemed like every game that came out was cell shaded.

[ChadTower]

It all depends on if you mean for US, or for the retail scene.  New vector games are released several times a year and have for the last few years.

[SirPoonga]

Well, in order for someone to produce vector monitors they are going to have to make money, so....

Vector games would have to be trendy again in order for there to be enough money to make that happen.

[ChadTower]

They won't be THAT trendy, since they would require hardware.  One thing that has always been the case with games is that dedicated hardware, other than the console itself, dooms a game to the very fringes of retail.

A vector fan's best bet right now is to get a Vectrex and check out the awesome homebrew scene.  Best one out there, IMO.

[SirPoonga]

That's why they WOULD have to be trendy.  It's the trendy things where people will pay for specialized hardware.  Look at Steel Battalion, that new PS2 Pachinko controller, the Resident Evil 4 chainsaw controller, etc...

It would have to be affordable though, don't know how many people buy Steel Battalion.

A modern version of vetrex would be cool.  Might be able to pull it off with this retro gaming movement.  There's tons of those TV game controllers, 70s LED games, etc.. around these days.

Handheld vetrex, size of a gameboy sp, that could be interesting...

[ChadTower]

Erm, how would you manage to make an LCD based vector monitor?   

Pretty much everything you mentioned there is ultrafringe, especially those microscopically small production run items like the RE chainsaw.

As much talk as you see on the net about Steel Battalion, I have yet to ever see any of that stuff in person, and I know way more hardcore console gamers than any person should.

[Matthew Fisher]

I guess Jay Smith WAS developing a handheld Vectrex at one point, but I have no idea how it was going to look.  I guess it would be a lot deeper than a game boy, though... 

I don't see how you could make a new vector game that would appeal to a mass audience.  Maybe if it were some kind of really abstract puzzle game.  I think the raster graphics are just too realistic now.  I can almost see kids saying, "WTF, the picture's all made of lines!"  Of course there are those of us who gladly pay for new games for Vectrex and would gladly pay if new PC games could be run on the ZVG.  There just aren't that many, though.  It took Zektor over three years to sell 100 ZVG's, for God's sake, and that's one of the coolest commercial products out there!  It would seem that even among those who loved these games as kids and now have a little money, most seem content to play them on a regular monitor.  I don't get it, but there it is.  Then again, I don't understand why some people like Laserdisc games, the other great "niche" of arcade collecting.  To each his own.  So, to sum up, I think it would have to be new software, and when it arrives, sign me up. 

Unsolicited game ideas:  my votes are for a 3-d color flight game or a color driving game 

[ChadTower]

Now, if one was really going to break back into a more modern style game for a color vector... why would they go and make it something from a standard genre?  What fun would that be?   

[SirPoonga]

Erm, how would you manage to make an LCD based vector monitor?   

Pretty much everything you mentioned there is ultrafringe, especially those microscopically small production run items like the RE chainsaw.

As much talk as you see on the net about Steel Battalion, I have yet to ever see any of that stuff in person, and I know way more hardcore console gamers than any person should.

That's part of my point.  It would have to be really trendy in order to be commercial enough to warrant making vector monitors, and it would have to be affordable.

I didn't say LCD based vector monitor, just if it was possible to make a very small and thin one....

[ChadTower]

Ah, okay, I'm working with things in the actual realm of possibility without a million dollar r+d effort.

Driving games... eh, not a good use of the technology.  Flight sims, that's half the existing arcade vector library.

Let's think about this.  What are the things that vector monitors do that rasters can't?  What do they do better?  Figure those things out, elaborate on them, and there is half your game design right there.

[Matthew Fisher]

I was just throwing stuff out there!    If I could come up with ideas half as original as Tempest or Major Havoc, I'd be a game designer!  Not that any game companies would make those games today.  That's really the problem, isn't it?  The only decent sized arcade around here is at least 80% gun games.  (Seems to me that most of the electromechanicals in the fifties and sixties were also gun games.  Have we come full circle?).  Until house of the dead came out, or course, they were all fighting games.  Don't forget all the indistinguishable driving games.  Speed and sharpness are really the advantages that vectors have over rasters, and still do, IMHO.  Hmm...  I'll give this some thought. 

[SirPoonga]

Let's think about this.  What are the things that vector monitors do that rasters can't?  What do they do better?  Figure those things out, elaborate on them, and there is half your game design right there.

Burn an image into your retna with the intensity rasters can't duplicate....

[ChadTower]

Speed and sharpness are really the advantages that vectors have over rasters, and still do, IMHO.

[ChadTower]

Wow, that brought the discussion to a screeching halt.  Anyone have any suggestions, comments, anything?  This is the direction I'm taking my research.

[Matthew Fisher]

No it's not that.  I gotta get my work done sometime!  Plenty of food for thought, though.  If you, or anyone else, could come up with a TRUE 3D vector game, I agree it would be incredible.  The scope could use mechanical shutters, like Subroc 3D.  That way, perhaps they could be made to go faster than LCD shutter glasses that work with a TV.  Also, the LCD shutters never seem to go totally clear.  I have the Sega Master System shutter glasses, and, to be honest, 30fps per eye is just not fast enough.  Plus, although the effect can be somewhat neat, none are TRUE 3d, and by that I mean you never interact with the game in the X, Y, AND Z axes.  Even in Star Wars, you are only controlling a cursor in X and Y.  3D graphics would also allow interaction in the Z, as you would now have that visual data, but making an intuitive control might be difficult.  Perhaps something like a SW yoke that also plunges in and out with a third pot in it.  Now, how does one design an interactive game based on 3d fireworks....

[ChadTower]

I'm not interested, at this point, in a true navigatable 3d environment.  I'm interested in 3d visuals, as in the LCD shutter effect, but not 3d models nor a playfield where depth is part of the play.  I'm thinking more along the lines of a regular 2d game that happens to take advantage of the visual effect to enhance graphics, but not necessarily gameplay.  I think without textures to fill the polygons out you'd lose a lot of what depth gets you, you're adding geometrically to your complexity of design/coding, and you're moving away from the XY monitor's strengths and back into what you're accustomed to from raster.

It is, after all, an XY monitor, not an XYZ monitor.   

[SirPoonga]

Are you thinking 3D as in Star Wars arcade 3D?

[ChadTower]

No.  That's what I'm trying to say, I'm thinking 3D in the way a movie is 3D, or the way Minestorm 3D is 3D.

[bjk7382]

I own a vectrex, but have never tired the 3D imager for it (since the last one that sold on ebay went for $300+, and the homade one out of a cd player is out of my technical skill range)

That said, I don't know how cool a 3D vector game would be, but I assume it would be quite impressive. I do own a Sega master system with the 3D shutter glasses, but I don't know how that compares to 3d minestorm or the other 3d vectrex games.

Do you own the 3d imager chadtower?

[ChadTower]

I actually do not... I do have the Laseractive 3D goggles, which are a much heavier, better version of the SMS goggles.  I still have to pick up the LCD shutter glasses adapter for the Vectrex and a copy of 3D Minestorm.  From there I'm probably going to decompile the 3D Minestorm ROM and start looking through the code to see how it works.

That will get me to the point where I have an idea how to write a 3D vector game for the Imager.  After that, I suppose, I'll have to learn how the LCD glasses work natively (say, for the SMS) and combine the two techniques if possible.

It's a long road, but I have time.  I'm in no rush.

[bjk7382]

That will get me to the point where I have an idea how to write a 3D vector game for the Imager.

[ChadTower]

Of course they work in b/w, the Vectrex is b/w only.   

Yeah, that's the type of 3D playfield I'm saying I'm not picturing.  Without filled in polygons, those walls take up too much playfield that could be used in a more innovative way.

[bjk7382]

Of course they work in b/w, the Vectrex is b/w only.

[ChadTower]

But the 3d imager has spinning color wheels that make it appear color The sms glassis will only give you b/w, that is what i was saying.

In the end I would like to find a 3d imager someday, but finding a cheap one won't be easy.

Ah, yes, I see what you were saying now.  Vectrex prices are through the roof right now.  There are a few people on ebay buying up everything that comes through no matter what it costs them.  No one is quite sure why...