Is shill bidding immoral?

[AlanS17]

There's a Super Auction coming to town in a little over a month. I'll likely be taking at least a couple of machines. I've only sold one at auction before (a mint KI2). I didn't shill bid on it, but I didn't make what I wanted, either.

I've heard people complain about shill bidders and how awful they are. I don't particularly like the idea either, but I'm concerned that I may not get what I want unless I do the same thing. It seems to be perfectly acceptable practice, even though people don't like it.

Has anyone here done it? What do yall think? I'm not looking to start any arguments. I just want opinions.

I'm mostly interested in the opinions of fellow DFW people - especially those who might actually go to the auction. Please don't vote unless you're from DFW or you have an opinion you're willing to back up with commentary.

[Tailgunner]

Well I'm not from DFW, so I won't vote.

Since you can't set a minimum bid, I don't see any alternative. I personally don't think of it as shill bidding if you as the owner are bidding it up to where you don't lose money on the cab.

[quadmasta]

I voted no.  In a Super Auctions auction, the item up for bids is in a sort of limbo land where nobody really owns it.  It states in their rules that anybody can bid on any machine at any time including Super Auctions employees.  Now, along with shill bidding you've got to factor in that you coud, in fact, get screwed and have to pay for your machine PLUS pay their buyer's fees and taxes.

Here's dictionary.com's definition:
shill   Audio pronunciation of "shill" ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (shl) Slang
n.

    One who poses as a satisfied customer or an enthusiastic gambler to dupe bystanders into participating in a swindle.

  I say because of the last two reasons it's not really shill bidding.  Shill gives a negative connotation in my mind. 

[Lilwolf]

I was under then impression that they both have it, and that its expected...

but if you buy your own machine, you have to pay super auctions their percent. 

IE, you can set a minimum... but if it doesn't get sold for that much... you have a charge based on that minimum

[MonitorGuru]

I vote YES.

[jelwell]

Since you can't set a minimum bid, I don't see any alternative. I personally don't think of it as shill bidding if you as the owner are bidding it up to where you don't lose money on the cab.

From Super Auctions website:

Can I set a reserve or minimum price on my games?
Absolutely!

[Raven..]

Here's the thing though.  Are you going to bid more than you are actually willing to pay?  Shill bidding drives the price up, but if it is higher than you want to spend, don't buy it  The auctioneer "ghost-bids" as well.  they are trying to ake money and the buyers are trying to get something for less than it is worth.  You want cheap stuff with no shill bids or ghosts?  Stay til 2am....that's where you get bargains.  Otherwise, set an amount you are willing to pay for something you want and stop when you reach that amount. 

I've bid on my own stuff at SuperAuction before to ensure a buyback when it wasn't drawing anything.  I did it openly and with no problem.  I just kept my hand up until it was done.  Otherwise I would have lost a lot of money. 
Is that shill bidding?  No, that is exactly what the auctioneer told me to do when I asked him about buying back.  Was someone disappointed that they didn't get soemthing for next to nothing?  Maybe, but if they really wanted it, they would have bid higher.

Then again, I will not take ANYTHING else to Super Auction.  (but I will bid on Alan's stuff  )

[RayB]

It's sleazy, but from the buyer's perspective... set yourself a price and don't go over it, simple as that. Sure it means a shill could prevent you from paying LESS than you planned to, but at least if you show some self control, you won't be paying OVER either.

[SteveJ34]

I think the fair to the buyer approach is to set a reserve and then the bidding should start at that reserve price.

Based on my experience at SA in DFW, I don't believe this to be the case, ie: reserve is starting bid.....and yes shill and/or sellers bidding up the price of their machine is rampant.

I have only purchased a few machines from SA and these were ones noone else wanted and that was many moons ago.

I have missed recent auctions for some time and have heard both good and bad stories of the results from each.

[marknetwork]

what exactly is shill bidding?  sorry i dont understand.  lol

[jelwell]

There is a difference between getting what an item is worth and shill bidding to get more than it's worth. AlanS17 makes it fuzzy to guess what he's thinking by 1: Calling it shill bidding. and 2:

I don't particularly like the idea either, but I'm concerned that I may not get what I want unless I do the same thing.

Getting what you, (the shill bidders), want is not necessarily the same thing as getting a fair price. But I'm sure AlanS17 can chime in on expectations.

Here's the thing though.

[jelwell]

All the scams at these auctions (cord cutting, board breaking, shilling, buyer premiums, etc...) and you wonder why things don't sell and the values are actually cheaper on eBay for many of the same items.

The auctioneers in Costa Mesa usually skip any item known to be working the night before that won't come on during the sale - and either go back to it later or simply skip it outright. Although I did buy one bartop close to 2am once for 10$ and I have a sneaky suspicion that someone did indeed unplug the unit (internally) and then swap 1 key with a nearbye bartop (that was probably also internally unplugged). Because when I got the unit home - and broke the back door (because 1 key on the unit did not match) I found a cable simply unplugged and fully functional bar top.

Granted that I don't think that bartop would have sold for much more than 10$ even if everyone knew it would come on. It was not a megatouch, and it had some severe damage where, clearly, 2 or more people - on separate occasions - tried to get into the coin door with a crowbar.

Lastly, I assume they're cheaper on ebay because shipping and  handling makes most of these units unsalable outside your locale. While the auction brings many locales together into a single location, and allows buyers to ship units in bulk.
Joseph Elwell.

[AlanS17]

Hi yall. Sorry for the delay. Sure enough, we got into a debate...

As for reserves, I never realized that was possible at a Super Auction. If a machine ever had a reserve at an auction I went to, I never heard them mention it. I'd be fine with setting reserves for my stuff.

Anyways, If I got what I think a machine is worth, I'd be happy with that. Unfortunately, everybody has a different opinion of what a converted game is worth. It's easier to guage a dedicated machine, but I'm talking about converted machines. Some people would only pay $100 and some would pay double that (or more). My idea of "fair" is completely subjective at that point. I most certainly think it's worth more than $100.

The only reason people stick around for converted machines is because they're wanting something dirt cheap. I want to be able to protect myself from that.

As for a flat-out arcade sale, that wouldn't be a bad idea. I'd be happy with that. Unfortunately, there's not venue for an arcade sale - only an auction.

The bottom line is that I'm not talking about duping anybody. I'm just trying to avoid getting screwed. I'm not desperate to get rid of my stuff.

[marknetwork]

OHHHHH so shill bidding is having people you know bid the price higher than it should be???  Of course that's terrible!!!

[AlanS17]

Well it typically means bidding up the price of your own stuff. Having someone else do it for you really would be shady. I would never do that. And I would only do it far enough to cover my rear. Hell, if I just broke even in the end I could probably live with that (but don't tell my brother).

[monkeybomb]

I think shill biding is dishonest, but I can see someone doing it if there were no reserve.  It sounds like you prefer the reserve anyway.  At the last auction in SoCal I saw a girl "win" a pinball machine.  After she had won, they told her there was a reserve, so she wouldn't get it.  She talked to the seller after the show and they met halfway between her bid and the reserve. 

[AlanS17]

Well I've never heard an auctioneer state that a particular machine has a reserve when it's being bid on. My concern with stating a reserve would be exatcly what happened to that girl.

I don't want bidders to play the guessing game. I'd rather them know up front what minimum I want for a particular machine. If they would mention a reserve at auction time, I'd be happy with that. But if I take something to the auction, I really don't want to bring it home. I'd rather it sell for what it's worth. That's just not as easily guaranteed with reserves. If the reserve isn't met, it doesn't go back up on the block. The auction is already over. I'm stuck with my machine unless I'm willing to settle for less than what it's worth. (And who wants to do that?)

[paigeoliver]

The Superauctions system is there for a reason, they largely do not allow reserves at all, they just expect the buyer to buy them back if the price isn't high enough. I have never actually had to bid any of my own items there, but I would have, without hesistation and without feeling dishonest. That is the way that selling forum works.

The actually MAJORITY of the buybacks at Superauctions are not machines owned by regular folk, but instead machines owned by Superauctions themselves (who very regularly buy out warehouses, and will tend to purchase the better GOOD items that people enter into the auction if they are going way below market value). They make a TON of money this way because THEY don't have to pay any fees at all. They buy $300ish game for $100 because it is a good deal. They hand seller $74 (after entry fee and commission). They then lug that game around to auctions until someone will go $300 on it, at which point they charge them 13 percent buyers premium on it and they end up making $265 on the game.

If those two things weren't happening then you would find that there wouldn't be a lot of games at the auction at all, and there would hardly ever be anything good. No one wants to risk selling a $500-$1000 unit for $25 at the auction because it broke down, someone sabotaged it, or everyone's truck is full and only one guy has space for it.

[jelwell]

The Superauctions system is there for a reason, they largely do not allow reserves at all, they just expect the buyer to buy them back if the price isn't high enough. I have never actually had to bid any of my own items there, but I would have, without hesistation and without feeling dishonest. That is the way that selling forum works.

This sounds fishy to me. Superauctions.com clearly states that reserves are "Absolutely!" allowed - as I stated earlier. Which is, of course, in direct conflict with "largely do not allow reserves at all". I think you're confusing "the way that selling forum works" with the fact that, yes, a lot of people shill to raise the price. But just because there's a lot of bad sellers doesn't make it moral to join them.

The actually MAJORITY of the buybacks at Superauctions are not machines owned by regular folk, but instead machines owned by Superauctions themselves (who very regularly buy out warehouses, and will tend to purchase the better GOOD items that people enter into the auction if they are going way below market value). They make a TON of money this way because THEY don't have to pay any fees at all. They buy $300ish game for $100 because it is a good deal. They hand seller $74 (after entry fee and commission). They then lug that game around to auctions until someone will go $300 on it, at which point they charge them 13 percent buyers premium on it and they end up making $265 on the game.

If those two things weren't happening then you would find that there wouldn't be a lot of games at the auction at all, and there would hardly ever be anything good. No one wants to risk selling a $500-$1000 unit for $25 at the auction because it broke down, someone sabotaged it, or everyone's truck is full and only one guy has space for it.

I have noticed that there's at least one guy, who does appear to be affiliated with Superauctions who buys a lot. I assumed they had a retail business. Soooo, does this imply that I'm seeing a lot of the same games over and over at the auction house every season? Or is there turnaround time short enough that most items don't make it back to their original venue?
Joseph Elwell.

[paigeoliver]

I have sold there enough, the literature says "Any reserve prices have to be agreed upon by the OWNER of superauctions." Rob isn't even AT half the auctions anymore, and I rarely see non-superauctions owned game that has a reserve. Most of the reserves you see are the phantom ones that pop up after the auctioneer realizes that he was selling one of THEIR games.

The same games sometime do make it back to the same locations, usually not, they have enough locations and place their own games in most of the prime spots, so they usually don't HAVE to move them that many times.

[ericball]

IANAL, but it appears that bidding on behalf of the seller may be illegal in some jurisdictions unless it is in the terms of the auction.  (From http://www.maineantiquedigest.com/articles/ethi0800.htm, which I found when doing a search on auction psychology.)

From an auctioneer's standpoint, it may be impossible to know that George is a shill bidding on behalf of Fred - the seller.  Heck, I suspect this goes on all the time and it's only because it's done badly that people notice it at all.  (And the auctioneer doesn't really care either, since they get their cut no matter who the buyer is.)

Now the purpose of a shill is twofold.  First, ensure an item sells for at least a minimum amount, which shouldn't be necessary if the auction allows minimum bids and/or reserves.  Second, to drive up the final price - play chicken with the other bidders.

Now everyone loves a good deal.  Picking up that item for a tenth of it's actual value is one of the reasons people go to auctions.  But, that sale doesn't make the auctioneer or the seller any money.  Personally, I prefer a posted minimum bid to a hidden reserve.  Why waste my time bidding on something when you won't sell it to me at my final offer?  But I do understand that starting with a low initial bid will typically get more people bidding, and then the mob mentality takes over to drive the final bid even higher.  Shilling for a minimum bid then makes sense.

What's more reprehensible is shilling to increase the bid.  It's also more risky for the seller.  Although they may make some additional profit, I might also decide not to increase my bid, leaving them with not only an unsold item, but higher auction costs.  But a good shill can read the sheep and figure out whether there's more cash to be squeezed out of my pocket based on how fast I counter-bid etc.

Now, shill tactics are even worse when the auctioneer is the seller since they can therefore avoid the penalty in fees and sales tactics.  The auctioneer will also know a shill is a shill and not just another interested buyer.  That might be considered out and out fraud.

[AlanS17]

Now everyone loves a good deal.

[Crazy Cooter]

You may have answered your own question.

Having someone else do it for you really would be shady.

Explain why having someone else do it is shady, but doing it yourself isn't.  The end result is the same.

If you're afraid of what you may get at an auction, and your not in a rush to get rid of it, why sell it there?  The newspaper, craigslist or ebay with a reserve may be a better forum to sell it.  You'd have a wider audience that way too.  Think about who buys at auctions and who buys via the other ways.  More often than not, you'll get the least amount at a local auction.

[AlanS17]

Well I'm not wanting to ship these things so putting them online doesn't give me a wider audience. I've never tried the newspaper. I've never put anything in the paper. I don't know what that involves or how effective it is.

Plus theer's a difference between bidding your own stuff up and having someone else do it for ouy. One is just protecting your assets. The other is faking interest for the machine to get other pumped up to bid higher.

[AlanS17]

Ok, I've got 15 people voting "yes" but they're not explaining why...

[Crazy Cooter]

Well I'm not wanting to ship these things so putting them online doesn't give me a wider audience. I've never tried the newspaper. I've never put anything in the paper. I don't know what that involves or how effective it is.

Plus theer's a difference between bidding your own stuff up and having someone else do it for ouy. One is just protecting your assets. The other is faking interest for the machine to get other pumped up to bid higher.

Not shipping does limit you some but there could be a lot of people locally interested that have no idea there are auctions.  With the newspaper/ebay, you could reach them.  I've never put anything in the paper either so I can't comment on how effective it is other than saying I look in the paper all the time for stuff to buy.

Whether it's you or a friend, the other people at the auction have no idea.  Either way, you'd be faking interest since the intent is not to buy it, only to up the price.  I'd look into the reserve thing to see what it's all about.  That may be the best bet.

I didn't vote btw...

[AlanS17]

Whether it's you or a friend, the other people at the auction have no idea.

[monkeybomb]

Ok, I've got 15 people voting "yes" but they're not explaining why...

I voted yes because an IMO auction is supposed to be between the bidders.  The idea is that the market is determining the value and not the seller.  An item is worth what a qualified buyer will pay for it, not the owners opinion.  However I can see where stuff gets under valued because of factors at the superauctions.

For me I would change my vote if there were an honest way to go about it.  But If a person is thinking that they are bidding against another buyer then they should be secure in the fact that the value is not inflated.  If they are bidding against themselves themselves then they could pay more than true market value.  There is a reason that this stuff is illegal in places.

I don't want to hear buyer beware crap either.  The question is about morality not what a practical buyer should be aware of.

[AlanS17]

Is it against any sort of Super Auction policy to put a sticker on your machines showing the reserve? My objection to the reserve system is that nobody knows what the reserve is so they don't know what they need to bid above. I think a sticker on the glass sounds like a great idea, though. I just don't know what SA would say if they saw "price tags" on stuff.

[monkeybomb]

Is it against any sort of Super Auction policy to put a sticker on your machines showing the reserve? My objection to the reserve system is that nobody knows what the reserve is so they don't know what they need to bid above. I think a sticker on the glass sounds like a great idea, though. I just don't know what SA would say if they saw "price tags" on stuff.

Yeah, despite my comments, I'm not sure what choice super auctions leaves you.  They kind of set things up to make you do it.  And there aren't really that many places for you to sell the machines. 

[jelwell]

Is it against any sort of Super Auction policy to put a sticker on your machines showing the reserve? My objection to the reserve system is that nobody knows what the reserve is so they don't know what they need to bid above. I think a sticker on the glass sounds like a great idea, though. I just don't know what SA would say if they saw "price tags" on stuff.

So I was under the impression that reserves *ARE* clearly marked on the sticker already. The key is that they're not common since - apparently everyone is shilling, if you believe paigeoliver, which I do. What's worse, if you continue to believe paigeoliver, is that it does appear that the auction house is setting reserves after-the-fact on their own items. I've seen, numerous times, the auctioneer ask "to make sure there isn't a reserve on this item selling waaaay too low" and the answer that comes back is, "of course there is" - so the item is passed.
Joseph Elwell.

[NY_in_TX]

no you can't put prices on your stuff.  somebody once came up and wrote a price on their machine and Rob pretty much shut that down quick.  I guess reason is that you have to pay to get a reserve on there. 

their fees are

$13 to list with no reserve plus the fee
$26 to list with  reserve plus the fee
$26 to buy back , total.

so if you are going to be there and are interested in taking an active roll in the bidding so you can buy back if it doesn't hit your price, then just list it.  If you are like me and loose track of time, get bored, or have to run home from time to time just list with your reserve and be done with it. 

for what it's worth I have no problem with shill bidding.  it's their stuff and they have a vested interest in what it sells for.  there's plenty of the cabs without shill bidders attached to bid on.

no what does irk me are the commonplace shady practices that go on during normal bidding.  Phantom bidders and the auctioneer falsely representing the current bid.  I've gotten pretty good at shutting that down and avoiding their stupid tactics, but it's part of the game.

I got to witness the greatness of  DooRag shill bidding.  he's got it down pat, and has the auctioneers trained well.

[AlanS17]

So I'd have to pay $13 extra dollars for a machine that still may not fetch the price I'm looking for? I'm basically paying an extra $13 for the chance not to sell it if I don't like the price. That sucks. I'd rather take my chances. On alot of my machines that aren' worth a whole lot to begin with, $13 is a considerable portion of the profit.

[NY_in_TX]

you're right Alan, that's why shill bids have become the norm.

your gonna pay $26 anyway if the thing doesn't sell, but this way you have some control.  So if you set a reserve if $700, if it tops out at $650 it won't sell and your out $26.  If you are shill bidding then you can decide to let it go for $650 if you want to or pay the $26 if you bid it up and win. 

I'd rather see shill bids that reserves because it still has that aspect of chance.  if the guy is in the can or misses his items for one reason or another then you still might catch a good deal.

last time they broke into 2 circles at the redemption stuff.  the other circle went to the last rows of standups.  A bunchof operators complained that they lost money on some of their stand-ups because they were guarding their redemption machines. 

"We'll I'da bought back if I were there." was all I heard that night

[DarkKobold]

You think with all the money super auctions makes, they could afford some dental work.... yeesh.

[AlanS17]

You think with all the money super auctions makes, they could afford some dental work.... yeesh.

LOL and something to wipe their faces. 

[paigeoliver]

Do Rag doesn't have the auctioneers trained, he works for Superauctions, and is the one doing THEIR buying/selling.

Or at least he did, haven't seen him lately, they have a different guy now.

[kcorcoran]

not even going to read other replies before i give my opinion.

immoral. yes. in some states even illegal... for a reason.
maybe auction companies will even consider it against the rules at auctions for various items... mainly because it does nothing but hurt the credibility of the auction company and keep people like myself from coming back when it's allowed or silently encouraged to increase their profits.

why would i go to an auction or recommend one where some ---uvula--- is off to the side waging a bidding war with me with apparantly no interest in the item only to walk away when it hits a price that he's comfortable with.

bottom line is.. sell your games locally or in the paper if you don't think you'll get your price at an auction.. otherwise go there knowing you probably won't and let the people that are there for the deals... get them. the way it's supposed to be done.

---smurfing--- shilling ---uvulas---.

[jelwell]

So I'd have to pay $13 extra dollars for a machine that still may not fetch the price I'm looking for? I'm basically paying an extra $13 for the chance not to sell it if I don't like the price. That sucks. I'd rather take my chances. On alot of my machines that aren' worth a whole lot to begin with, $13 is a considerable portion of the profit.

If 13$ is going to dent your profits then you're wasting your time hauling the item down there. And you're wasting your time at an auction anyways. They don't even increment the bidding that low unless the item is under 50 bucks. *wasting* your time. Now I'm starting to wonder. Everything that sells for less than 13$ is being sold at a loss? Or being sold by the auction house? Wow, that's gotta hurt. Or the big sellers must get discounts or free slots for their dead machines.
Joseph Elwell.

[Raven..]

Nope, I've talked to several big sellers out there.