Is it more media attention or are there really so many more of these crimes?

[ChadTower]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/07/05/idaho.children/index.html

I just don't get it... why do these things happen every week now?  It used to be you'd hear about a couple a year, which is still way too many.  Now, the brutality and extent of the crimes are so much worse, and they happen with terrifying frequently.

Is it really happening so much more often?  Why would it be?  What could possibly be causing all these psychos to go off at once?

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Media attention. I highly doubt that, statistically, kidnappings are happening at a rate any different than in the past, it's just that the media is too lazy to be bothered to report anything that requires actual reporting/investigation. They're newsreaders.

It's sad really. There is so much more important stuff that should be reported. Things that people can actually *do* something about, as opposed to just "worrying" about a lost child somewhere.

I think these cases fit perfectly in local news cycles, but I absolutely do not see them as national news.


 

[ChadTower]

I think I just lost every remaining iota of respect for you that I may have had left as of an hour ago.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

I think I just lost every remaining iota of respect for you that I may have had left as of an hour ago.

How's that? Care to explain?

Is it because I don't think it does anyone any good to hear about lost children in the woods, or blonde chicks in Aruba? Maybe you shouldn't ask questions you do want answers too.

You and/or I can do absolutely NOTHING in regards to these stories, and to think otherwise is foolish.

I prefer the Amber Alert system, and local news coverage. Anything more is just fear-mongering and voyeurism.

Now, the brutality and extent of the crimes are so much worse, and they happen with terrifying frequently.

Oh I see. You are naive enough to think that times have changed and these kinds of vile crimes are anything new. Give me a break. These things happen every damn day and just because the national media has decided to throw it in everyone's face 24-7, this fact will not be changed.

They started with the "runaway bride" and they will not stop until this country gets it's morbid fill.

[Sephroth57]

yeah i agree, my grandparents are always readin the papers and are like "did you hear these people got killed, blah blah"  yeah it sucks for them but what does that have to do with me. I mean really this world is depressing enough i dont really care about people dieing in some other state, it happens everyday. wheres the news coverage on iraq and what buildings we just took over and stuff like that, that would be good stuff to be informed about

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Btw, just so we are clear...I think you are being a knee-jerk reactionary. It's apparent that even though you posed a question, "Is it the media reporting them more often, or are these crimes are happening more often?", I think you already came to your own conclusion.

Bare in mind that I said nothing of how I feel about the crimes themselves, which are of course brutal and appalling. I am merely speaking to their level of import in my life and yours. Forcing the rest of the country to live through the sadistic details of these sorts of crimes serves no purpose other than subjugate them through fear.

If you just can't get enough of mutilated children, then by all means, feel free to glue yourself to the media coverage 24-7.

As for my respect of you, nothing has changed there. I believe you're just misguided on this particular issue. Driven by fear. If you really are that concerned about missing children, there are plenty of agencies our there that could use your help locating them. Will you join them, or do you just plan on watching the news?

What could possibly be causing all these psychos to go off at once?

Another potential problem with all the media attention, is it's tendency to direct "copy-cat" crimes, and/or influence other criminals. So, yeah, maybe that's another reason we should explore media responsibility.

[missioncontrol]

It's getting to the point I get sick to my stomach watching the news and hearing these horrifying stories.....

There's just too many sick people in this world.....

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Chad,

While you're there at home losing "every remaining iota of respect" for me because I'm less of a pandering reactionary than you are...I'm going to provide a few interesting facts for you (and anyone else hyperventilating over the latest "missing child" headlines) to chew on.

Firstly, if we are to believe the National Incidence Studies of Missing, Abducted, Runaway, and Thrownaway Children (NISMART-2 .PDF) report, released in 2002, then the sensationalistic news coverage your are yammering about DOES NOT help the cause, in fact, it confuses the matter.

From NISMART:

"The words

[DYNAGOD]

Another alarming thing is that its only news if its white..
whether its kidnapping,murder,pedophilia or all three combined..
if that idaho family were hispanic or black i doubt CNN would have ever even glanced at it.. 
like the girl in aruba, people go missing/kidnapped all the time at international ports of call, but shes a young attractive white girl, so its clearly news worthy..
the US media places a premium on caucasian news..

[ChadTower]

Another alarming thing is that its only news if its white..
whether its kidnapping,murder,pedophilia or all three combined..
if that idaho family were hispanic or black i doubt CNN would have ever even glanced at it..

[mr.Curmudgeon]

but you have to consider that the target audience of the media we read is primarily white, so they would focus more on those than on any other

So you are "ok" with that? or not?

[mr.Curmudgeon]

I think I just lost every remaining iota of respect for you that I may have had left as of an hour ago.

Just noticed this...but what did I do an "hour ago"?  Your post was 2 minutes after mine. 

[daywane]

wow. 

[mr.Curmudgeon]

lol. It's more of a "Hit n' Run" than a cat-fight (my claws aren't even out yet, plus, my kitty wears a helmet; see Avatar)....Captn' Chad has yet to clear up his statement. I guess he agreed with the facts, in the end.

[Dartful Dodger]

lol. It's more of a "Hit n' Run" than a cat-fight (my claws aren't even out yet, plus, my kitty wears a helmet; see Avatar)....Captn' Chad has yet to clear up his statement. I guess he agreed with the facts, in the end.

Clear what up?

His post was easy to understand.

[Bones]

The problem is obvious. Your society is falling apart because of your relaxed gun laws and your loud rock'n'roll music.

[AlanS17]

The problem is obvious. Your society is falling apart because of your relaxed gun laws and your loud rock'n'roll music.

What? I can't hear you...

Lemme turn down my rock'n'roll and I was just at the gun range so my ears are still ringing. 

[AlanS17]

Actually, I have to agree 100% with MC on this. News (at least TV) is sensationalistic. It's broadcast more for shock value and entertainment than for actual information. They call it news just because it's non-fiction, but bad stuff happens everyday. I like to refer to it as the "crime and weather report".

If it gets good ratings, though, you can hardly blame the broadcasters. They're going to show what they think people want to see. It just goes back to society's lack of ability to evaluate what's really important. Interesting or not, I'd say less than 10% of what they show on thew "news" actually matters or has relevance to me and my life.

One case in point. Earlier this year, a woman I used to work with was murdered by her drugged-up son. Of course it made it onto the nightly news. I didn't see the news broadcast so I went to the website to read the transcript. The first sentence ended in a freaking exclamation point! It was something along the lines of "... and you'll never guess why!" It sounded more like gossip than news, but it's just par for the course.

[Zakk]

I don't know as if I agree with Mr. C on this.  You say that it's not right to see abducted children on national news, but it should stay local.  So if news agencies kept to your logic, an abductor would simply have to cross a state line and nobody would ever recognize the abducted child.(?)  The criminal in this case was caught because someone recognized the child and knew of the story.  What if that restaurant had been 3 states over, I guess there would be one more 'ho-hum' corpse to identify via the remains.
  However, I will concede that this might be two separate issues.  If it was a murder (story closed), then maybe it's local news.  Abduction: world news.  Yes yes I'm sure there must be a LOT of abducted clidren, but hell my TV goes to channel 999, and I sure could do with one less channel showing American Idol or big brother.

I dunno Mr. C, maybe I'm just reading your take on this wrong.  No, I don't want to go and join a child search organization, but I'd like to think that I would make a phone call if I saw a child that -may- have been abducted.   

I'm curious. Do you have kids of your own?

[TOK]

The problem is obvious. Your society is falling apart because of your relaxed gun laws and your loud rock'n'roll music.

If only this lady had a .45 on the nightstand when this turd broke in, this story might have had a happy ending. 

[TheVengeance]

Another alarming thing is that its only news if its white..
whether its kidnapping,murder,pedophilia or all three combined..
if that idaho family were hispanic or black i doubt CNN would have ever even glanced at it..

[mr.Curmudgeon]

You say that it's not right to see abducted children on national news, but it should stay local.  So if news agencies kept to your logic, an abductor would simply have to cross a state line and nobody would ever recognize the abducted child.(?)

I didn't mean to imply that it is "not right", but more that it is useless and sensational in the manner that it is presented. With 24/7 cable news cycles we get the same information regurgitated over and over and over...with little to no development, with little to no specifics, and with little to no useful information. For the relatively few instances of annual abduction cases which will end in such a severe manner...I can't see how this constant inundation of sensationalism does anything other than spread panic and fear amongst parents and children. As the NISMART report states, it in fact only makes it's harder to clearly address the issue of child abduction.

The criminal in this case was caught because someone recognized the child and knew of the story.

Even if these types of news stories were to continue (which that most likely will, along with shark attacks!!! OMG!!!)...it's only a matter of time before the viewing public get bored and disinterested, and/or numb to the whole issue. I mean, how many people still look at the back of milk cartons? Or double-checks the missing child fliers in the newspapers and junk-mail? (Me and my girl do, but I assume a lot of people do not)

 

However, I will concede that this might be two separate issues.  If it was a murder (story closed), then maybe it's local news.  Abduction: world news.  Yes yes I'm sure there must be a LOT of abducted children, but hell my TV goes to channel 999

I think this is more along the lines of what I was suggesting when I said I support the idea of the Amber Alert System. I imagine it'd be 1000x more effective to take the whole abduction issue out of the hands of the sensationalistic news media and have a regional system that briefly interrupts a program or commercial...like say, if the cops think a kid has been taken across state lines, than all of the stations in that area can broadcast a brief alert (with all the relevant photos and information) over just those relevant televisions. Honestly everything you'd need to know in order to help find the child could be broadcast in a 20sec warning, as opposed to a 24/7, 7 day a week cable news gore-fest. Maybe, as you suggest, we could go even further and create a "Missing Children Channel" which systematically runs through relevant cases, WITHOUT the dramatization
 created by these moronic talking heads.

I dunno Mr. C, maybe I'm just reading your take on this wrong.

I don't think so, but I hope I cleared it up if you did.

I'm curious. Do you have kids of your own?

I'd feel the same about this situation, whether or not I had kids.


mrC

[ScoopKW]

If I may interject for a moment without sounding a little to callous.

Over 90% of the news media is both owned and operated by a Zionist conglomerate. So why is it any surprise to you, that a story depicting the tragedies of your average white suburban family, almost never fails to make the evening news?

As a card-carrying member of the international Jewish news conspiracy, I rather resent the above remark.   

Have a look at the bylines of your newspaper, and the names of the correspondents on TV -- they have names like "Chad, Corky and Brad."  (Or in my case, Eric.)

Your "over 90 percent" figure was plucked out of thin air, and I wish you luck trying to support that tidbit without turning to Aryan supremacy literature.

When the majority of the people reporting and editing the news have names like "Hymie, Judith and Itzak," call me to complain about a Zionist news illuminati.

In the meantime, perhaps you'd like to consider taking the word "Zionist" and chucking it into the nearest rubbish bin. Usually when I hear the word "zionist," it's followed by a bunch of malarky. Which in turn is usually rebutted by invoking Godwin's Law.

------------------------------

[/rant]

As far as Aruba is concerned, the old standby is "If it bleeds, it leads." And it didn't begin with the "runaway bride."

This has been going on since colonial newspapers. If you don't believe me, head to your library and check out the microfiche of the Saccho and Venzetti trial, or the Lindburgh kidnapping, or the front page of the Chicago Tribune from, say, 1930 to 1938.

I agree that news coverage has been slipping of late. I attribute it more to cable TV than anything else.

Now, if you'll excuse me, Rabbi Rubenstein is here to tell me what to put on the front page of tomorrow's edition. 

ScoopKW
(Non-denominational journalist and brewmaster since 1992.)

[mr.Curmudgeon]

If it gets good ratings, though, you can hardly blame the broadcasters. They're going to show what they think people want to see. It just goes back to society's lack of ability to evaluate what's really important. Interesting or not, I'd say less than 10% of what they show on thew "news" actually matters or has relevance to me and my life.

But this goes to the heart of the problem. Since when did the "news" become synonymous with "entertainment"? Why is the media establishment built in such a way that they are as beholden to "ratings" as much as American Idol is?

They are supposed to be a "filter", using journalistic techniques to uncover stories and present facts in the most objective way possible. Americans (I can speak for any other country) have become so complacent that they no longer question how these stories are presented to them, let alone what the content of the stories actually is.

I posit that the news should once again be considered a public trust, rather than the op/ed filled "edutainment" industry that it has become.


mrC

[ScoopKW]

I posit that the news should once again be considered a public trust, rather than the op/ed filled "edutainment" industry that it has become.


mrC

When, exactly, was news a "public trust?"

Not at the turn of the last century, when W.R. Hearst was leading this nation into the Spanish-American war. "You provide the photographs, I'll provide the war," Hearst told his people in Cuba.

Not during the 1940s, when the press turned a blind eye to Japanese Interment Centers. Not during the 1950s, when the press turned a blind eye to CIA-orchestrated coups in Latin America. Not during the 1960s, when the press turned a blind eye toward the Bay of Pigs. All because the public might be offended. No public trust there.

Not even at the beginning of the 19th century, when Jefferson and Hamiton started competing newspapers with the express purpose of libeling each other.

Even during the civil rights movement -- the zenith of so-called "public-trust" journalism -- there were more editorials calling for continued segregation than for integration.  Far too many of the "northern" papers suggested that we keep our collective noses out of the racist south.

Edutainment? Look at the cheesecake stories about Clara Bow during the 1920s, the innuendo about Marilyn Monroe, the defacto nod to the 60s drug culture -- it's all there in black and white (at least, until we all bought color TVs).  The press has become more explicit over the decades, of course. Then again, so has the public.

Journalism is only as good as the people writing the stories and their subject matter. If that bothers you, it is but a symptom of the larger problem.

ScoopKW

PS -- Closest thing to real "public trust" journalism today? The Christian Science Monitor. Check it out at csmonitor.com  -- I think it's the best paper available.

(No, I don't work for them.)

[jbox]

But this goes to the heart of the problem. Since when did the "news" become synonymous with "entertainment"? Why is the media establishment built in such a way that they are as beholden to "ratings" as much as American Idol is?

Let's be generous, and say you break twenty big stories a year. Real big, like risking the life of a CIA agent, uncovering the nationalities of known terrorists, or uncovering that money seems to be going where congress specifically said it should *not* be going. 

Now how do you build a business around these twenty papers? How do you pay the rent the other thirty two weeks in the year? Secretaries? Cleaners? TV ads? Where in the capitalist manifesto does it say that media/government/X is immune to the boredom of the people? That some fundamental characteristic will shine through and cause people to pay any amount for a higher quality good, instead of just a reasonable amount? Good scoops can raise a paper's profile so it sells better, but at the end of the day they still need to convince advertisers to give them money to print the thing. The irony is that *you* probably make this problem worse by not being a malleable consumer, which gives the advertisers (and hence media) less reason to want to spend money on you. 

Yes, you think quality is important. Maybe you don't buy the trashy rags, or watch Idol, but only buy the indie 'power to the people' flyers. But how much will you pay? $10 a week? $20? 100? At some point you will stop paying, you just have a higher price than most people. Don't slam a company for selling a (legal) product that is crap, try to raise the standards of the rest of the people buying it. 

If you really want to discuss flaws with the system, as opposed to just the fact that everyone around you is an idiot, I am still short a few ways to prevent "dumping" in my N(S)WO...   

[Bones]

People like misery. This is why they slow down near car fatalities. Something makes them look and pay attention. I don't know why.

News reporters seem to give what their viewers desire.

[DYNAGOD]

there will come a day when the daily news will resembly a trip to rotten.com
its not unlike the same problem that haunts hollywood, the more money they spend making these multimillion dollar movies the more calloused and desensitized the public becomes and it becomes necessary to push the envelope further and further on each outing to get peoples attentions..
unfortunetly with news ,its not special effects, its horrific crime ,and so news co's are required to find more and more explicit and dispicable acts to fill their nightly quota..

[daywane]

Zionist conglomerate

[TheVengeance]

If I may interject for a moment without sounding a little to callous.

Over 90% of the news media is both owned and operated by a Zionist conglomerate. So why is it any surprise to you, that a story depicting the tragedies of your average white suburban family, almost never fails to make the evening news?

As a card-carrying member of the international Jewish news conspiracy, I rather resent the above remark.

[ChadTower]

Clear what up?

His post was easy to understand.

Bingo.  I said what I felt I needed to say.  There is nothing to clear up.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Clear what up?

His post was easy to understand.

Bingo.  I said what I felt I needed to say.  There is nothing to clear up.

You said nothing. You are apparently not willing, or able to explain yourself. I backed up my belief with facts...you backed yourself into a corner.

Have some courage and admit you screamed "the sky is falling" without knowing the reality of the situation. I'm not holding my breath though.

[ChadTower]

You said nothing. You are apparently not willing, or able to explain yourself. I backed up my belief with facts...you backed yourself into a corner.

No, not really.  I said everything I had to say, and then stopped talking until someone said something to which I wanted to respond.  What type of clarification is needed? 

[mr.Curmudgeon]

You said nothing. You are apparently not willing, or able to explain yourself. I backed up my belief with facts...you backed yourself into a corner.

No, not really.  I said everything I had to say, and then stopped talking until someone said something to which I wanted to respond.  What type of clarification is needed? 

Just curious as to what part of my opinion got you so upset...I mean, damn, you used "iota" in a sentence...that's pretty serious.

Are you appalled at the idea that I don't share your penchant for scaremongering tactics using the emotional appeal of dead children?

You seemed to have completely ignored the fact that I answered your question, and the reality is that "No" these kinds of violent acts are not occurring at an increased rate, rather they are simply being reported with more zeal lately, for some reason.

I really get the sense that you just can't address this issue rationally anyhow, so it's probably a waste of time.

[ChadTower]

Just curious as to what part of my opinion got you so upset...I mean, damn, you used "iota" in a sentence...that's pretty serious.

Hey, think what you want.  If you'd like, I'll delete my comment so you can untwist your panties. 

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Hey, think what you want.  If you'd like, I'll delete my comment so you can untwist your panties. 

You don't have to delete it. I just thought you'd be man enough to explain. But it's not unlike you to make broad, pointed statements then leave without backing them up or explaining them. I honestly have no idea what you are referring to with your original statement, and as far as I am concerned it's just an unwarranted part of some personal vendetta. The fact that DD only jumped into the thread to "support" you seems to back that up.

For all I know you read something I posted somewhere else on the net and you are referring to that.

I don't really care if you are offended or not, but I am highly curious what necessitated the need for the "WHAAAAAAMBULANCE".

mrC

[SeaMonkey]

If I may interject for a moment without sounding a little to callous.

Over 90% of the news media is both owned and operated by a Zionist conglomerate.
Sad but TRUE

Yep.

As a Jew I can vouch for that. I am a member of the Elders of Zion.
We show nothing but blond people being killed and kidnapped because we find it funny when blond people die. Payback for WWII.

The Germans HAD to kill us, so that they could be the master race by default.

Did you know we have blow-holes on the backs of our heads?

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Did you know we have blow-holes on the backs of our heads?

I FRIGGIN' KNEW IT!!!

This is going straight into my report. HOT DAMN!!!


mrC

[Dartful Dodger]

Are you appalled at the idea that I don't share your penchant for scaremongering tactics using the emotional appeal of dead children?

Where did Chad imply this?

He didn't beat Gore, you don't have to attack his character by making things up.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

He didn't beat Gore, you don't have to attack his character by making things up.

What the hell is wrong with you Dartful? Are you retarded or what? Seriously...the things you say sometimes...make...no....sense.

You have so far added *nothing* to this thread, nor have you had anything intelligent to say. Are you and Chad attached at the hip or can he speak for himself?

Your constant attacks on everything I say just makes you look deluded and sad, possibly even, dare I say, "stalker-ish." I thought I saw you outside my window, but it turns out it was fredster. (He even admitted it!)

I mean, I am handsome, but I don't swing that way.

mrC

[ChadTower]

Are you appalled at the idea that I don't share your penchant for scaremongering tactics using the emotional appeal of dead children?

Where did Chad imply this?

Scaremongering - One who spreads frightening rumors; an alarmist. 

It's funny... I ignored that statement because it is throwing darts at a tactic he is using himself in that very statement.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Scaremongering - One who spreads frightening rumors; an alarmist. 

It's funny... I ignored that statement because it is throwing darts at a tactic he is using himself in that very statement.

To each their own, I guess.

[Dartful Dodger]

What the hell is wrong with you Dartful?

vulgarity -- 50 points

Are you retarded or what?

insult intelligence -- 10 points

I mean, I am handsome, but I don't swing that way.

Questioning manhood -- 50 points

Sub total 110 points

All three happened in the same post

[Brunnen-G]

Watch the 'Safety Hysteria' Penn & Teller Bulls##t! episode from season 2.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

total points 330

As if you have earned any less. You don't exactly involve yourself in these types of discussions...

At this point, it's more productive for me to have fun at your expense. I especially love how you do nothing but drag threads into the mud, then whine when I single you out for doing it. It's a pretty childish and pathetic tactic on your part.

Say something other than "BUSH WON!" every friggin' post. I know you can. It's more annoying that you think it bothers me, more than it really, in fact, bothers me.

EDIT: I bet I know what your response will be...please try to not be so predictable.

[RayB]

Back on topic: I blame it on the availability of "mature" video games with sexual content.

[saint]

I take all kinds of exception to this. You are wrong. You are 100% completely wrong.  Half the people on these forums have opinions I cannot abide. They are free to remain here and speak their mind. The person you are referring to broke the rules of this forum. Period. You will not bring hatred and racism to my forums. Racial slurs have no place here. Period. If this is what you need to speak your mind then don't let the door hit you on the butt on your way out.

--- saint

There was a past member on this board who was banned for speaking his mind, and I'll not follow in those footsteps,

[mr.Curmudgeon]

I can vouch for Saint's statement above. I say all kinds of stuff that could be considered objectionable, disagreeable, controversial, just plain stupid, erroneous and or opinionated.

I have yet to be banned. Much to Saint's credit, and much to my surprise sometimes. If someone said something that got them banned here, than it had to be extremely stupid and/or hateful.


mrC

[ChadTower]

I'll go the other way... the poster was right.  The person he refers to was banned for speaking his mind.

It just so happened that his mind was full of racism, slurs, and things that are against the rules.  He spoke them, he was banned, and it was right.

[saint]

Heh. One day Mr. C and Chad will agree on something. At that time I will be looking frantically around for other signs of Ragnarok/Armageddon/Rapture.

[ChadTower]

We agreed on the part about the guy being banned rightfully!

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Heh. One day Mr. C and Chad will agree on something. At that time I will be looking frantically around for other signs of Ragnarok/Armageddon/Rapture.

Well, if it's any consolation, my stigmata has stopped acting up!

mrC

[ChadTower]

[AlanS17]

I don't get it...

[ChadTower]

It's fun to look at.

[AlanS17]

My back is starting to hurt just from watching it.

[ChadTower]

It's funny when he first makes contact and her head whips back before her body does.

[Dartful Dodger]

It's fun to look at.

What's the story behind it? Are they okay?  Did she get kicked off the team?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[ChadTower]

I have no idea.

[TheVengeance]

I take all kinds of exception to this. You are wrong. You are 100% completely wrong.

[saint]

You'll have to re-read what I said. I didn't state anything about you one way or another. I took exception to your statement that the previous person was banned for speaking his mind. People get banned for violating the rules, not for having opinions I don't agree with.

--- saint

I take all kinds of exception to this. You are wrong. You are 100% completely wrong.  Half the people on these forums have opinions I cannot abide. They are free to remain here and speak their mind. The person you are referring to broke the rules of this forum. Period. You will not bring hatred and racism to my forums. Racial slurs have no place here. Period. If this is what you need to speak your mind then don't let the door hit you on the butt on your way out.

--- saint

There was a past member on this board who was banned for speaking his mind, and I'll not follow in those footsteps,

In reference to a previous post, I hope you're not mistaking me for having the same views and beliefs that our resident racist had before he was banned.

I DO NOT share the same opinions as he does, and I DO NOT condone his way of life, but I refuse to be labeled a racist because of someone misinterpreting what I posted.

That being said, if it's any consolation, I'm half Italian!  And the other half being robot, or machine as I've been called now. Having lost both my legs in the line of duty, I now need the assist of braces to move about wherever I go.

So yeah, me RACIST -- can't afford it. Friends are hard enough to find anyways, both before and after my accident.

Just my piece, build with it what you like.

[DrewKaree]

This could get a little ugly if someone actually wanted to prove their point.

It STARTED to get ugly when you brought race into the discussion. 

You've posted  your comments as if they were facts with nothing to back up your statement, utilizing a racial element in the process.  Telling us you're Italian is meaningless.  Your words would read the same if you were Polish, German, African-American, or Nepalese!  If race wasn't intended, why bring it up in such a fashion?  There are far harsher words that could be said, and I question your concern for this "getting ugly", as you were the person who started implying things that could be taken "ugly" and using terminology that would further lead to those kinds of assumptions. 

As of my post, you still have yet to explain what you meant and provide any sort of backup for your "facts" of a "Zionist conglomerate.  Is there an explanation forthcoming?

[TheVengeance]

This could get a little ugly if someone actually wanted to prove their point.

It STARTED to get ugly when you brought race into the discussion.

[jbox]

Bah. *I* control the horizontal and the vertical, I can deluge you with a thousand insults or expand one single argument to opaque clarity and beyond. I control all that you see and hear. You are about to experience the awe and mystery which reaches from the smallest mind to beyond the 'razor... 

fnord thetan harold holt

[Bones]

I rarley understand anything you say Jbox.

[jbox]

I rarley understand anything you say Jbox.

Wait, you mean some of it *is* getting through? Damn it! Those bloody vikings must have been messing with my settings again. 

[daywane]

I don't get it...

Having 2 blond daughters in my house.... I love it