Shocked!!

[Smittydc]

So I finally got around to looking at some of the front-ends available and I must say I've been shocked by how poorly designed many of them are.  The hoops you need to jump through to create favorites and sub-lists are ridiculous.   What's wrong with drag and drop or right-clicking?  Many of the programs seem more designed to show off fancy graphic programming techniques than for usability.  Surprisingly, MAME32 still seems like one of the best options.

I know that front-end are a matter of personal preference, and I might have to customize something to get what I want.  And I still have several front-ends to try (though since each one seems to require its own peculiar MAME directory structure, that may take a while).  

I'm not trying to point fingers at any particular program, and I don't mean to start a long flaming discussion, but I hadn't seen anyone else mention this issue, so thought I'd speak up.

It's good to have so many choices, I suppose.

-Smittydc

[)p(]

So I finally got around to looking at some of the front-ends available and I must say I've been shocked by how poorly designed many of them are.  The hoops you need to jump through to create favorites and sub-lists are ridiculous.   What's wrong with drag and drop or right-clicking?  Many of the programs seem more designed to show off fancy graphic programming techniques than for usability.  Surprisingly, MAME32 still seems like one of the best options.

I know that front-end are a matter of personal preference, and I might have to customize something to get what I want.  And I still have several front-ends to try (though since each one seems to require its own peculiar MAME directory structure, that may take a while).  

I'm not trying to point fingers at any particular program, and I don't mean to start a long flaming discussion, but I hadn't seen anyone else mention this issue, so thought I'd speak up.

It's good to have so many choices, I suppose.

-Smittydc

I can only speak for myself...so here you go...
My fe started out as an effort to have something that did not feel like a windows app at all and would take up the theme of my cabinet. At that time there was nothing out there like that. So I started to make my own...

So why no easy way to setup gamelists etc. The main reason is developing the interface itself is much more fun and while developing, it is also much easier to have a set of textfiles and edit the parameters then having to adapt an internal configuration utility every time you make some changes or enhancements to the format. Only now that I feel I have most things in place I feel it is worth to invest time in making the configuration easier. Hence the next version of my fe will have an internal skinner...

peter

[Jungle]

As much as I would love to have each of the FEs to have a "one-button " set up and configure, I think we need to keep some things in mind:

1 - the FE developers are primarily developing these things for use on their own machines

2 - they are not getting paid for any of their work

I for one am thankful that they share their work with us, and provide some support for getting the programs up and running.  It's also nice that there is some healthy competition that keeps the developers motivated to "show off" their skills - it makes each version better than the last.

[darkmanx]

i share your frustration jungle. i have tried many FE's and they are all nice and im sure perfect to thier designers but they dont seem to work for me. i am going to just end up coding something myself for my needs. only way to get what you truly want; unless by some miracle u want exactly what someone else did.

[PacManFan]

I've been shocked al lot too by the poor quality or specific purpose of certain front ends. That's why I have been coding a new front end for the BYOAC community. I've been coding on it for about 2 months now, and it's coming along great. In short, this front end is going to be very different from all others you see because my front end is an interpreter with scripts defining EVERYTHING. The way I have set up the script compiler, you can define global variables (Strings,numbers,rectangles,bitmaps,etc..) and then define EVENTS that happen. User based events can be triggered by Keystrokes (AND && ,OR ||,Sequence ->), or Events can be triggered internally by the program(Timers,screensavers,notifications of things...).

So in short, EVERYTHING is going to be defined by the user through scripts.

Multiple emulators are supported
emultors support multiple "skins"
you can have a skin for a single game if you want.
 
I am also putting in a in-program menuing system.

Any interest?

I'll be making an announcement soon.

I know that this is not for the novice script writer. I hope to make it a little easier with a visual script builder program.

Here is a small part of a script to give you an Idea:


SCRIPT_START


STRING logobitmap  = "Config\mame\mame1.bmp"
STRING emupath = "C:\EMU\DMame\"
STRING emuname  = "dmame.exe"
STRING rompath =  "C:\EMU\mame\goodroms\"
STRING emuoptions  = "-sound 1" // list of global configuration options to send to emulator
STRING flyerpath  = "C:\EMU\DMame\flyers\"
STRING cabinetpath  = "C:\EMU\dmame\cabinets\"
STRING marqueepath  = "C:\EMU\dmame\marquees\"
STRING sshotpath  = "C:\EMU\dmame\snap\"
STRING WavePath  = "C:\projects\gamelpro\sounds\"
STRING LnchSound  = "launch.wav"
STRING NextEmuSound = "nextemu.wav"
STRING NextGameSound = "nextgame.wav"

CONST NumberOfListItems = 10
CONST NumberOfPreviewItems = 5
Rect flyersrect 17,260,195,464 // the arcade flyers
Rect cabinetrect 20,48,194,247 // rect for cabinet pictures
Rect marqueerect 219,4,626,70 // rect for marquee's
Rect sshotrect 216,82,629,377 // rect for screen shots
Rect listrect 257,168,612,230 // rect for the scrolling list of games
Rect logorect 18,0,192,45 // rect for the logo of the emu
Rect previewrect 216,391,625,471 // rectangle for the list of screen shot previews


EVENT LAUNCH_GAME
   KEYDEFS
      SCAN_1 || SCAN_2 // 1 or 2
   END_KEYDEFS
   ACTIONS
      playwave (WavePath + LnchSound)
      launch (emupath + enuname + rompath + currentgamefilename ) //[+ currentgamefilenameextention] +
   END_ACTIONS
END_EVENT


EVENT NEXT_GAME // this is the user defined name of the event
   KEYDEFS
      SCAN_UP // this is the key or key combo that sets off the event
   END_KEYDEFS
   ACTIONS // list of actions
      playwave( WavePath + NextGameSound) // play the sound
      prevgame(1) // move to the next game
      DisplayBitmapStretchFit(sshotrect , sshotpath + currentgamefilename +".png") // display the screen shot
      DisplayBitmapStretchFit(flyersrect , flyerpath + currentgamefilename +".png") // display the flyers
      DisplayBitmapStretchFit(cabinetrect , cabinetpath + currentgamefilename +".png") // display the cabinet picture
      DisplayBitmapStretchFit(marqueerect , marqueepath + currentgamefilename +".png") // display the marquee picture
      displaygamelist (listrect,NumberOfListItems)
      DisplayPreviewList (previewrect,NumberOfPreviewItems)
   END_ACTIONS
END_EVENT

SCRIPT_END

[)p(]

I know that this is not for the novice script writer. I hope to make it a little easier with a visual script builder program.

Hehe...yeah without it it would surpass my fe as the most complex to setup ;-)
Actually I like the event driven approach you took. Internally my fe works much like that. Partly because Director is an event driven environment and partly because I just like it :-)

Peter

[Smittydc]

Pac-man: sounds interesting. But I don't know if adding MORE complexity is the way to go.  

It seems like a lot of FEs require manual editing of a lot of configuration files.  How hard is it to make the scripts/configs editable in a menu-system, where you would set your options and then save them?  It would be nice to see the options available, and context based help explaining what they do, instead of having to read through 20 pages of documentation.

The legacy of the dos-command-line origins, I suppose.

hmmmm.....

Or maybe I'm just lazy?

[Howard_Casto]

For a person that spent the better part of an hour or two helping you last night with setup you are pretty damn ungrateful.  Quit your bitching before you piss someone important off.  

[SirPoonga]

This is an interesting discussion.  Most people don't want a windows-ish FE, that's why you don't see too many with right-click or drag and drop.  Alot of people don;t put trackballs on their cabinets or the trackball is not on the main control panel so most navigation is done by joystick.

For those of us who are programmers we get the bennefit of making our own they way we want and decide to share with the community.  there are others that do take requests on how to improve their FE too.  

MY FE got side tracked, I haven't finished it yet.  My friend is doing the graphics for me.  Our schedules currently clash so we can't get anything done on it.  If we do finish it, as I have said before, if we release it to the public it will be like PartyOn, no support, just something to try.  It will be a pain to setup as it is database driven and that's why I don't plan on supporting it.  Plus it is pacman themed to go along with the rest of my cabinet (once I get cash to actually work on the theme).

BTW, for those that said they were making their own, head over to http://fe.donkeyfly.com.  I have been trying to get some the FE devs together to talk about ideas.  The board isn't that active, but we do check it once and awhile.  HC and I (mainly HC right now) working on the controls.dat (go to the forum and read).  Oh, to access the programmers section for you programmers you will have to PM me after you register...

[Smittydc]

Howard, I am grateful for your help, which, besides the fact that my complaint is general in nature, is why I didn't mention your program by name.   In my opinion (And that's all I've been offering in this thread: My opinion.  If you don't agree, try not to get defensive and take it so personally), yours is one of the better FEs around.  

Quit your bitching before you piss someone important off.  

What, I should be scared that my suggestions for software improvements are going to get me banned?  Give me a break.  

Whatever gratitude I did have towards you is significantly diluted by such childish outbursts.

[lightspeed]

I'll just say this....

I think MAME32 gets the short-end of the stick.  The GUI is a fine front-end.   Too many vets like to spurn it, but it gets the job done very well.  

[Howard_Casto]

Howard, I am grateful for your help, which, besides the fact that my complaint is general in nature, is why I didn't mention your program by name.   In my opinion (And that's all I've been offering in this thread: My opinion.  If you don't agree, try not to get defensive and take it so personally), yours is one of the better FEs around.  

Quit your bitching before you piss someone important off.  

What, I should be scared that my suggestions for software improvements are going to get me banned?  Give me a break.  

Whatever gratitude I did have towards you is significantly diluted by such childish outbursts.

Dude maybe you don't realize how you are wording your post but how in the world could anyone not take it personally?  You basically insulted every single fe developer on this board in one fail swoop.  You users just don't get it and I hate to use the word user because in public use it's almost a dirty word.  You can't demand features on a free program and you can't expect us to comply to your requests if you start off your thread with:

"So I finally got around to looking at some of the front-ends available and I must say I've been shocked by how poorly designed many of them are.  The hoops you need to jump through to create favorites and sub-lists are ridiculous."

Show a bit of respect why don't ya, countless hours are spent out of the goodness of our hearts and we are willing to take suggestions and even add what you guys want just so that you don't have to look else-where.  

Forget about my front-end, with that statement above you insulted every single one of my collegues and I take a great deal of offense to someone saying that ALL of them are poorley designed and that you have to "jump through hoops" to set them up.  We aren't going to wipe your butt for you, a great deal of effort is expected out of you to set it up for yourself, which is still nothing compared to the extrememe amount of effort we put into our little programs.  

If you find the fact that I would get angry over that "childish" then so be it.  I call it human.  Some other people were offended by this too, they are just too nice to state it publically.  Luckily I'm not that nice.  

You may haven't tried to offend anyone, but you obviously have little to no respect for these applications or the people who code them.  I don't think you realize that you lack respect, but anyone who could write that and not understand why people would take offense to it really doesn't understand how much work is involved in a front end, or any programming aplication for that matter.

Here is how your post should have been worded:  

"I have been looking at a lot of front-ends lately and I am really confused about the setup.  Are there any front ends out there that are easy to setup?  If not then could someone explain the reasoning as to why they aren't so user-friendly?"  

See how the words "ridiculous", "shocked" and "poorly designed" are left out.  

Oh and btw, what I meant by p*ssing important people off is that you've basically insulted every fe developer on the board so you definately aren't going to get any help with setup now.

Go up and read Jungle's post... He's what us developers would consider the "perfect" user.  He is respectful and understanding of the work involved.  It's guys like him that make us want to continue.  It's asinine threads, comments, emails and remarks like the start of this thread that make me so damn grouchy all of the time.  

Imagine putting several hours of your life a week into a project made for a community only to have  a very few members that send you email worded like your post on average of at least once a month and see how nice you are.  

I don't have a problem with your opinion at all, what I have a problem with is how you are so insensitive about how you "nicely" call everyone's projects crap.  Understand that I'm not mad at you at all but your complete lack of knowledge regarding the programming process, which is very understandable and forgiveable if the proper respect is taken when you ask for suggestions or post comments about the quality of someone elses work.  This time you didn't "get it" but after this, one of my famous lectures, hopefully next time you will.  

[Jakobud]

Well if you are into 'right clicking' and 'drag and drop' features it sounds like you are looking for common "Windowsy" features that most of the FE try to avoid here.  The dev's try to make frontends that look and feel as LITTLE like Windows as possible.  Sounds like you need to visit mameworld.

jakobud

[Smittydc]

Exactly the kind of flaming desconstructionist exchange I was trying to avoid.

I apologize to anyone I may have insulted or thought I was being disrespectful.   I appreciate the efforts so many programmers have made in the MAME community, and think that many of them display great creativity and ingenuity.  

Very quick responses to your points:
(It's Friday night after all)

1) my name isn't dude.
2) I never "demanded" any features.  I pointed out a few shortcomings to initiate discussion.  If I was going to make requests I would do more research first and then make very specific recommendations.
3) I didn't say they "all" were poorly designed, just that I thought "many" of them were.  I stand by that statement.
4) I know what goes into programming and I've done quite a bit, but I also know what goes into interface design.  Design is very important.
5) I didn't use your language "I am really confused about the setup" because I found nothing confusing about them.  SOME of them I found extremely tedious.  Having to type the names of indivdual games into a text file to create a list of favorites strikes me as absurd.  What else is a front-end used for? But I also understand that many of these programs were designed for personal use, and thus weren't polished up for installation.
6) Last night, we spent MAYBE 20 minutes figuring out that I needed to change the font used in the default skin of your software to get the text to display -- not 1-2 hours.  

Howard, I don't see any point in continuing this discussion with you here.  In this post I've deliberately not addressed the several personal insults you tossed in my direction.  Please disregard anything I have to say, because you will most likely misunderstand it and take it as a personal affront.  

If you REALLY REALLY want to flame each other, feel free to  email me at smittydc@starpower.net -- I'd be happy to exchange insults privately and we can spare the rest of the forum.  

Now, anyone want to talk about what features we like/don't like in a front end?  Hell, maybe I'll write one myself.

[Smittydc]

Jakobud and SirPoonga:
(great screen names by the way)

It's not so much the windows drag and drop and right clicking I'm looking for as the ease of use those techniques can give you.

SirPoonga -- the screenshots of your YapFE show the ability to mark favorites with a colored button for easy identification and sorting.  A very elegant solution to organizing games.  

I think being able to flag games in this manner and call up sublists easily is one of the main features I'm looking for in  a front end.  Several of the ones I looked at displayed the screeenshots/ marquees/etc  beautifully, but only let you scroll back and forth through the main list -- not the best method when you're talking about 2000+ games.

still have a few more to play with...

[darkmanx]

just out of curiosity howard, what language is lazarus coded in? i can get around in vb and - not to take anything away from your FE - but i have to have my fe massivly customized to my taste so i will take a shot at writing my own. but i really like alot of things you did and i am just curious if i could get similar things going for mine using vb. excellent work by the way.

[darkmanx]

ok hm i am guessing its vb from seein the vb6 runtimes

[Jakobud]

Smitty,

Well since it sounds like you are looking for a windowzy type FE, I would look at EmuLoader.  A lot of people think it's great....i'm not sure why.  It's super duper windowzy, but perhaps that is what you are looking for.  

If you don't mind editing a few textfiles to get things organized, check out Game Launcher.  I've said time and time again that this is the BEST one for arcade cabinets.  Its a clean and simple interface.  Yes, you DO have to edit some text files to get it going, but that gives you a lot of power to really customize it how you want.

Hope you didn't feel too flamed from us.  It's just that you asked for something that is completely opposite of what everyone else around here seems to want.

[Howard_Casto]

just out of curiosity howard, what language is lazarus coded in? i can get around in vb and - not to take anything away from your FE - but i have to have my fe massivly customized to my taste so i will take a shot at writing my own. but i really like alot of things you did and i am just curious if i could get similar things going for mine using vb. excellent work by the way.

it's coded in vb as you figured out

I relies heavily on windows api calls though... the only thing that is stock vb is the label controls and the forms.  The rest is active x plugins and api calls.  If you need any advice, I will be glad to help as usual.  Also check out fe.donkeyfly.com... it's a little slow on the responses but all of our collective vb knowledge is there.

*************************************

Also smitty, ignoring your response completely (for obvious reasons.)  But from reading your posts from the others it seems that you simply don't know how to use any of the front-ends available.  

For example you say that all of the front ends only let you scroll backwards and forwards on a list. I try EVERY front-end that is mentioned on this site and i can tell you that this a complete falsehood.  3darcade for example lets you move a page at a time, a letter at a time, ect, ect.  The same with lazarus  arcadefx and virtually every front end out there.  The features you are asking for are already implemented, you just aren't investing the time to find out about them.  And as jakobud said, this isn't the place to look for a "windowzy" front-end.  Go to the mamewrold forums for one of those.  If you think we are bad you'll have a ball over there.

[)p(]

Smitty,

Well since it sounds like you are looking for a windowzy type FE, I would look at EmuLoader.  A lot of people think it's great....i'm not sure why.  It's super duper windowzy, but perhaps that is what you are looking for.  

And Smittydc,  Emuloader has a fullscreen option so you can hide a bit of that windows feel...

By the way that fe's around here don't work like you expect does not make them poorly designed. And stating such as a fact is a bad way of starting a constructive discussion about features you want to see added.

That said if you have not tried  3darcade before I can tell you save yourself a big download because it uses lots of textfiles to get things working because every feature is externalised. That gives lots of flexibility for those who want to invest time in understanding the structure. But certainly is not for everyone..and I think that includes you

Peter

[Minwah]

Well my FE doesn't require any manual editing of text files...but you could say the result is a lack of flexibilty compared to some other FE's.

I can see why some things are coded so that they have to be set up from outside the FE.  ie what's the point of wasting time (and kb) in writing options that you will only have to setup once?...Users could say the point is ease of use, but it is sometimes even easier to edit a file - like editing your mame.ini.

I think you should try ALL the fe's (look here + mameworld), and if you don't like any then write your own  

[darkmanx]

thanks howard i will check out that site. as of now i am having a little trouble getting started, maybe i will find some inspiration there. been a while since i programmed and i need to get back into that focused mode.  

[u_rebelscum]

I can see why some things are coded so that they have to be set up from outside the FE.  ie what's the point of wasting time (and kb) in writing options that you will only have to setup once?...Users could say the point is ease of use, but it is sometimes even easier to edit a file - like editing your mame.ini.

Here, here!  IMO, it's easier to edit the mame.ini file than use, for example, mame32's six tab "default properties" window to do exactly the same thing.  Of course, I'm not a newbie anymore, and I [/]started[/i] with mame32.  I guess I've graduated from the "mouse/click only" stage to the "keyboard shortcut" stage in mame.

BTW, I'm a little against the mame32 way because I was able to add command line options very easily to mame & dmame, but the programming needed to do the same for mame32 is so much more.

[Howard_Casto]

BTW, I'm a little against the mame32 way because I was able to add command line options very easily to mame & dmame, but the programming needed to do the same for mame32 is so much more.

Exactly!  This is why I don't do it.  When I am adding new features and are all excited and ready to get it out to you it's much simplier to just tack on another entry to a ini file.  It takes all of 30 seconds to program in another variable reading at this point.  One the other hand my skinner app (which actually pre-dates lazarus and has evolved from the old raging dragon skinner)  takes on average 30 minutes per option to add a variable setting.  I know some of you with just a tad of programming experience are thinking: "why?  All you have to do is drop a control on a form."  You are indeed correct, if you want to make a really sh*tty interface, that is.    It takes a sec to add it on the form, 5 minutes to arrange it and all of the old controls so that they are somewhat easy to find/ use.  Another 10 minutes to edit the form load and skin save sequences so that they read and write to the control properly.  And another 10-15 mintues tweaking things just so that when you use one of these controls it manipulates the preview box properly.  Now for one or two options this isn't bad, but considering I add about 10-15 per release the time starts to add up.  It's much simpler for me to add the variable in an ini and write a nice little paragraph about the options above the setting.  If they can't read and type then it may be more difficult for the user, but in general it's much easier to do it that way.

[darkmanx]

i totally understand that one. personally i take the time to do it but then again time is the reason i havent programmed anything in a while. most of the time things like program options, especially in a graphicly intense program, are just not priority. trouble is non programmers or the casual programmer dont tend to see those things.

[Lilwolf]

quick note.  Everything you said about what your looking for is for a generic frontend.  Everyone here is programming frontends for cabinets.  where you dont' want it to look like a windows machine (almost everyone... anyone want a windows fe one a cabinet??).

Also, no mouse support.  This is a given.

Not to be touched every few days.  Setup and be done with it.

Lots of other items.

But if you have a keyboard and a mouse... then go with mame32.  The only use for it in my mind.  Sucks as a frontend in my opinion.  But good for people to play mame who has never seen a dos prompt before.

And your tone was very insulting.  Luckily I think you didn't try mine (or you would have stuck with it... mines the best... I tell you what... better then all the rest it is... yeah!  really... really really... hehe

[Mike]

I agree with most of the FE developers that it sounds like your slamming them. But anyways I like the current configuration files better than your drag and drop idea for this reason. One I can do a whole bunch of rom configurations by copy and pasting. Two, I don't have a trackball on my arcade, and three I spend my time on my machine playing games not jacking with the FE. The current way I take the time to set it up once then I'm done and I can play games.

[atog]

Try MAMEwah, it should fit most of your needs.  It is simple to set up, and extremely easy to populate a favorites list.  

I don't want to sound like I am defending Howard because he can often be a harsh ---uvula---, but in this particular case, he is absolutely correct and that original post from you is just out of line.

[Ted_Striker]

I use Emuloader on my cabinet and like it.  You can maximize the window to eliminate most of the "windowsy" effect (although the icons and stuff are still  windows ish.  I don't much like all the configuration files either.  I would rather click and drag and right click.  Most of the people that have played my cabinet never comment on the FE anyway.  The only thing you here is ""ooooh... you got Galaga awesome".

So there are us weirdos that have arcade cabinets that like the windows front ends.

[AGarv]

Howard dude, you need to get laid.

Howard, I am grateful for your help, which, besides the fact that my complaint is general in nature, is why I didn't mention your program by name.   In my opinion (And that's all I've been offering in this thread: My opinion.  If you don't agree, try not to get defensive and take it so personally), yours is one of the better FEs around.  

Quit your bitching before you piss someone important off.  

What, I should be scared that my suggestions for software improvements are going to get me banned?  Give me a break.  

Whatever gratitude I did have towards you is significantly diluted by such childish outbursts.

Dude maybe you don't realize how you are wording your post but how in the world could anyone not take it personally?  You basically insulted every single fe developer on this board in one fail swoop.  You users just don't get it and I hate to use the word user because in public use it's almost a dirty word.  You can't demand features on a free program and you can't expect us to comply to your requests if you start off your thread with:

"So I finally got around to looking at some of the front-ends available and I must say I've been shocked by how poorly designed many of them are.  The hoops you need to jump through to create favorites and sub-lists are ridiculous."

Show a bit of respect why don't ya, countless hours are spent out of the goodness of our hearts and we are willing to take suggestions and even add what you guys want just so that you don't have to look else-where.  

Forget about my front-end, with that statement above you insulted every single one of my collegues and I take a great deal of offense to someone saying that ALL of them are poorley designed and that you have to "jump through hoops" to set them up.  We aren't going to wipe your butt for you, a great deal of effort is expected out of you to set it up for yourself, which is still nothing compared to the extrememe amount of effort we put into our little programs.  

If you find the fact that I would get angry over that "childish" then so be it.  I call it human.  Some other people were offended by this too, they are just too nice to state it publically.  Luckily I'm not that nice.  

You may haven't tried to offend anyone, but you obviously have little to no respect for these applications or the people who code them.  I don't think you realize that you lack respect, but anyone who could write that and not understand why people would take offense to it really doesn't understand how much work is involved in a front end, or any programming aplication for that matter.

Here is how your post should have been worded:  

"I have been looking at a lot of front-ends lately and I am really confused about the setup.  Are there any front ends out there that are easy to setup?  If not then could someone explain the reasoning as to why they aren't so user-friendly?"  

See how the words "ridiculous", "shocked" and "poorly designed" are left out.  

Oh and btw, what I meant by p*ssing important people off is that you've basically insulted every fe developer on the board so you definately aren't going to get any help with setup now.

Go up and read Jungle's post... He's what us developers would consider the "perfect" user.  He is respectful and understanding of the work involved.  It's guys like him that make us want to continue.  It's asinine threads, comments, emails and remarks like the start of this thread that make me so damn grouchy all of the time.  

Imagine putting several hours of your life a week into a project made for a community only to have  a very few members that send you email worded like your post on average of at least once a month and see how nice you are.  

I don't have a problem with your opinion at all, what I have a problem with is how you are so insensitive about how you "nicely" call everyone's projects crap.  Understand that I'm not mad at you at all but your complete lack of knowledge regarding the programming process, which is very understandable and forgiveable if the proper respect is taken when you ask for suggestions or post comments about the quality of someone elses work.  This time you didn't "get it" but after this, one of my famous lectures, hopefully next time you will.  

[Howard_Casto]

That was uncalled for and irrelevant to the thread.  Please if you have a problem with me or my posts contact me privately.  I'll even give you my address so you can come and I can shut that smart mouth of yours permenantly.  

This is your ONLY warning.... Never make it personal.  

[Mike]

I can't understand why people are being jerky. How much software can you get for FREE then have the ability to go back and get FREE support for it. Everyone should be thankful that people are out there developing the software so you don't have to. If there is a feature you'd like added recommend it or talk to the developer of the FE and see if you can do it yourself. I'd assume anyone who can criticize how something is coded must have some coding ability themselves as to compare it to. And they must also think they are are better at coding than the FE developer. If that is you, write a program yourself to modify the config files with howards hard work on the wrappers you could call the program from inside most of the FE's you are criticizing. The frame work is there so quit the bitching and code it yourself if you want it.

[Smittydc]

I'm going to lock up this thread.  I think everybody has had their say and it's starting to get ugly.

Originally, I intended to express some frustration with the installation and operation of FEs.  After looking at a large number of FEs, I still feel that frustration some, but there are enough customizable options out there to meet my (and surely anyone's) needs.  Thanks to everyone for their opinions and suggestions.

Something else that this thread has made clear is that there are some programmers on this board that take themselves and their work a little too seriously.  MAMEcabs, FEs, etc are games -- let's all try to keep that in perspective, shall we?  

{edited because its x-mas and to keep things civil; sorry about the previous grumpiness}

Happy Holidays Everyone!!