what IS it with americans and greco-roman wrestling?

[danny_galaga]

saw the movie 'cursed' the other night and there was a scene with some wrestling in a high-school. how is it that americans (and bulgarians) think this is cool and 'manly'? it just makes me laugh, all these guys 'going the grope' with each other. and then in this movie the school bully (who is a wrestling champ) accuses the school nerd of being gay! go figure...

as for the movie, well it doesnt suck, but it aint no 'american werewolf in london'! i never jumped so high as when the dream sequence with the nazi pig monsters appeared 

[Setabs]

I think its exclusive to different parts off the country.  I lived in montana and wrestled for a month or two.  I don't think any schools in texas offer it.  Lacrosse is mainly in the New England area.  My old high school just got a hockey team and they have to travel about 6 hours to play anybody.   Different school just have different athletic programs.

[abrannan]

It's primarily a Midwest/Great Plains thing.  From Montana to Pennsylvania, and as far south as Oklahoma.  Other areas of the country have their own sports, and of course there's some overlap near the borders.  I think the appeals comes from the immigrants who primarily settled in those areas.  The Midwest/great plains is primarily made up of folks of German/Scandinavian descent, where large bodies and physical contests of strength are commonplace. 

Plus, catch wrestling and grappling really are "the" homegrown martial arts of the United States. 

[Bones]

Danny, I think you hinted on the answer in your question. It's because American men like to touch other American men.

It's OK, I am not one to judge, just one to jump to obvious conclusions. 

[ChadTower]

Plus, catch wrestling and grappling really are "the" homegrown martial arts of the United States.

[fredster]

I understand why you don't understand Danny.

It's a man thing, don't worry about it. 

Why are austrailians so fond of their bunny slippers?

[Goz]

saw the movie 'cursed' the other night and there was a scene with some wrestling in a high-school. how is it that americans (and bulgarians) think this is cool and 'manly'? it just makes me laugh, all these guys 'going the grope' with each other. and then in this movie the school bully (who is a wrestling champ) accuses the school nerd of being gay! go figure...

Hope it didn't hit too close to home for ya there Danny.

[Stingray]

As an American I can say that I have absolutely zero interest in wresting of any kind.

-S

[abrannan]

Plus, catch wrestling and grappling really are "the" homegrown martial arts of the United States. 

Not really... there's a reason they call it Greco-Roman... as in originated in Greece and Rome...

And I'm sure some dude in ancient Mesopotamia kicked someone else in the head first, but they skill call different forms of it different things (Karate, kung-fu, capoeira, etc) and attribute them to different countries. 

Greco Roman is just a specific ruleset under the larger umbrella of grappling or "catch as catch can" wrestling that focuses on winning by pinning an opponents shoulders to the mat.  Submissions are not allowed, and use of the legs to entangle the opponent is limited.  It also happens to be the ruleset that puts the competitors at the least risk of serious injury (not that it doesn't happen, mind you), which is why it's widely used.  The specific techniques, however, of takedowns and pins are largely modern (last 100 or so years) and codified by many American competitors (in the Karl Gotch and "Farmer" Burns era).  It also has a longer history in the US than any Eastern martial art, which didn't really appear Stateside until mid 20th century. 

[clanggedin]

I never took wrestling, but I have trained with 2 of the world's best wrestlers, when I was heavily into Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and those are just as or are more talented any 2nd-4th-10th degree Black Belt out there. The 2 men I am talking about are Mark Schultz and Cael Sanderson.

Wrestling is like a game of chess. You always have to have a number of attacks and counters in oyur mind at all times, while looking for your opponent to make a mistake allowing you to get the upper hand.

Even though I don't really like wrestling as a sport, it is an awesome martial art if it is stripped of the restrictions that has ben placed on it for competition over the years.

There was a guy here in Utah that taught Catch Wrestling. He still has a training center here in Utah even though he doesn't teach anymore.

[SirPoonga]

Sigh, some people just don't understand.  I bet if you see two guys on a motorcycle you think the same thing too.

[ChadTower]

When I see two guys on a motorcycle, I don't call them gay, I call them organ donors.

[Dartful Dodger]

Those of us who don't live in a Jackie Chan movie realize that when two guys get into a real fight, it will end up on the ground in a grappling match.

Jujitsu is one of the best martial arts, and it's wrestling with the intent of great bodily harm.

Karate and most other martial arts are just an aerobics or yoga class, without the spandex.

[ErikRuud]

DD, I will have to disagree with you on your first and second statements.

As for your second statement, I'm not going to get into a discussion of which martial art is better than others, mainly because I have no experience with anything other than karate.  I think that they all have there strengths and weaknesses.

I've seen a number of real fights that did not end in grappling on the floor.  It often depends on what the "fighters" actually know.

I started taking classes in Shotokan Karate last September, and the classes do have the benefits of aerobics, but don't confuse serious martial arts classes with the whole Tai Bo/AeroBoxing thing.

I'll also admit that, as far as I know, most martial arts classes are set up as more of competitive sport, and we try not to hurt each other during class or competition.  That does not mean that we could not actually hurt someone if we needed to.

I have taken Yoga classes and I wouldn't compare any martial art to Yoga, except possibly Tai Chi.


Danny_Galaga watch vthe movie "Vision Quest" if you want to see a movie about Greco_Roman wrestling.  By the way, it is am Olympic sport, so I guess other people besides us Yanks must be doing it as well.

[SirPoonga]

I've seen a number of real fights that did not end in grappling on the floor.  It often depends on what the "fighters" actually know.

Depends on how oyu read the statement.  I read it as if two guys walked up to each other in a bar and started fighting   Then most likely it won't be like a sanctioned event

[ErikRuud]

Sir P, I wasn't referring to a sanctioned event.

Actually two guys in a bar getting into a fight is probably where you will see grappling on the floor, however, if either of those two guys actually knows something about fighting (ie miltary, cop, martial artist, boxer, etc) then the fight does not end up on the floor, unless of course the fighting they know is Judo, wrestling, etc.  I have seen it happen.

[Dartful Dodger]

Depends on how oyu read the statement.

[ErikRuud]

I have no video like that to to show you, sorry. 

Both of my parents are retired Chicago cops, the training they received was different than it is now.  The use of knight sticks was the preferred method of taking a perp down. My mother had a partner at one time that was big into weight lifting.  He was known for taking people down with one punch.  Youcan't do that now.

I have seen stand up fights before.  More often that not they are one sided.  See the video of the pimp and karate instructor that is out on the net for an example.

We don't dance around that much during sparring. We are also told that a roundhouse is not a good choice while sparring, because it is too easily telegraphed and blocked. It generally works best if you can get your opponent looking the wrong way.

[SirPoonga]

We don't dance around that much during sparring.

Yep, watch fencing or tae kwan do in the olympics

[ChadTower]

It generally works best if you can get your opponent looking the wrong way.

Look, it's Elvis!

<WHAP>

[ErikRuud]

Sir P,

I hope you are referring to getting your opponent to look the wrong way, because I don't think fencing has roundhouse kicks.

[SirPoonga]

Editted to make more sense.

[ErikRuud]

Look, it's Elvis!

<WHAP>

If that works go with it.

Actually a punch or jab towards the face is often enough.

It is amazing to see black belts spar.

[Grasshopper]

Lol, this reminds me of a newspaper article I read a while back. Wrestling is apparently very big in Turkey as well, and for some bizarre reason they smear olive oil over their bodies before each bout. Inexplicably, they also regard this activity as the height of manliness.

The article said there is a trend for groups of gay westerners to book holidays in Turkey just so they can go and watch the wrestling. The Turks are apparently not amused!

Mind you Rugby's no better...

[abrannan]

Jujitsu is one of the best martial arts, and it's wrestling with the intent of great bodily harm.

Karate and most other martial arts are just an aerobics or yoga class, without the spandex.

This is largely dependent on the quality of the instructors.  I've seen Jiujitsu classes that were "just an aerobics class" and I've seen Judo and Tae Kwon Do (Largely the "sportiest" of the martial arts) classes that were quite brutal and effective for general purpose self-defense.

[Grasshopper]

Also, you have to bear in mind that there are many different styles of Karate. Same applies to Kung Fu (not sure about Ju-Jitsu).

I think if you're primarily interested in self-defence and don't want a steep learning curve then Wing Chun Kung Fu is a good starting point. Most of it is common sense instead of fancy moves that can only be executed by very fit highly skilled people.

[clanggedin]

I have studied a number of martial arts (Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Shorin-Ryu Kempo, American Kenpo, Muai Thai, Shaolin 5 Animals Kung-Fu, Wing Chun, Sambo) and I noticed the 95% of the martial arts out there don't evolve with what's going on know. The Senseis just re-teach what they were taught. On the other hand there are arts like Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, and American Kenpo that are always refining the techniques so they are more effective in the fights of today and not sticking with what worked 300 years ago in the fights of yesterday.

Many martial arts are only effective you are a certain size or body type. I'm a short dude, so kicking a guy in the head is pretty hard for me.In Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, it's not about size or strength, it's about leverage, speed, and timing. I have ended a few street fights against someone larger than me without throwing a punch. There is quite a bit of difference in Jiu-Jitsus. Japanese Jiu-Jitsu focuses more on getting a guy to the ground like Judo, whereas Brailian Jiu-Jitsu focuses on the ground game.

As far a Jiu-Jitsu being Aerobic. It's quite Anerobic actually. You do have to find a "qualified instructor" to be able to learn how to properly apply any martial art to a street situation.

Anyway...... Back on topic. I don't understand why Wrestling and America has been brought up. The greatest Greco-Roman wrestler ever is Russian (Alexander Karelin) and alot of the Middle-Eastern countries have really good wrestlers. I believe alot of the smaller american cities embrace wrestling because it's a cheaper sport for their kid to play than football or baseball. You only need 3 people (one is the ref) to have a sanctioned wrestling match that people canc ome and watch whereas you need more people to play a sanctioned game of soccer, football, or baseball.

[ChadTower]

Plus kids have a natural love of wearing trash bags in saunas.

[SirPoonga]

I believe alot of the smaller american cities embrace wrestling because it's a cheaper sport for their kid to play than football or baseball.

Eh, I see more injuries in wrestling that in other sports...

Danny, have a comments on the WWE? 

[Dartful Dodger]

I've seen Jiujitsu classes that were "just an aerobics class" and I've seen Judo and Tae Kwon Do (Largely the "sportiest" of the martial arts) classes that were quite brutal and effective for general purpose self-defense.

The funny thing about this statement is that Judo is a watered down version of jujitsu.

Tae Kwon Do for self-defense, now that's just funny.

Seriously though, all of these self-defense techniques are useless against a person who knows how to use a gun.

[clanggedin]

In Russia they teach their military Sambo which is similar to Jiu-Jitsu except they place HEAVY emphasis on leg submissions instead of arm locks and choles like Jiu-Jitsu. Their philsophy is that if you break an enemy's leg then you not only take him out of the battle, but also 2 more people helping him leave the battlefield.

Krav Maga is what Isreal teaches their military. It covers alot of knife and gun defense and stick fighting.

I've seen Jiujitsu classes that were "just an aerobics class" and I've seen Judo and Tae Kwon Do (Largely the "sportiest" of the martial arts) classes that were quite brutal and effective for general purpose self-defense.

Seriously though, all of these self-defense techniques are useless against a person who knows how to use a gun.

It's always good to know how to use firearms, but there will always be a time when you don't have it with you where your life may be in danger (airplane). It's good to have something to fall back on.

Also my kids can't get ahold of my martial arts and accidentally kill someone with it. LOL
(I'm not anti-gun BTW)

Back on topic.... I never thought that cutting weight was a smart thing to do just so you can have an advantage over your opponent. I have seen many wrestlers/fighters get seriously dehydrated becuase of cutting weight and end up in the hospital.

[Dartful Dodger]

It's always good to know how to use firearms, but there will always be a time when you don't have it with you where your life may be in danger (airplane). It's good to have something to fall back on.

My point was, you can not fall back on any martial arts or hand combat skills, when you are confronted by someone with a gun and knows how to use it.

I am a responsible adult, my kids can't get a hold of my gun.
If you showed your kids any martial arts move, they can use it and someone could die from it.

According to the law, having hand combat skills in the USA is treated like having a weapon.
Some governments use to ban civilians from engaging in hand combat training.

[clanggedin]

I understand your point,  as well as keeping anything that could cause your kids danger out of their hands, whether it's martial arts or a gun.

As for self defense being useless against someone who uses a gun is a bit vague. It's only useless if they guy is SMART with the gun and stands 5-10 feet away pointing it at you and there is no way you can close the distance without being shot.

When I lived in San Jose, Argentina I was faced with both guys. The SMART guy with a gun, who stayed 5 feet away, got my 2 pesos and my shoes, and a DUMB guy with a gun that got his trigger finger broken when the gun was ripped out of his hands and pistol whipped 2 or 3 times before he fled.

We never went back to that area after that again.

[ErikRuud]

Tae Kwon Do for self-defense, now that's just funny.

I have no idea how it is taught here in the states, but Tae Kwon Do was developed as an unarmed combat technique for the Korean military, so I imagine that it can be used very well for selfe defense, if taught properly.  Supposedly it was adapted from Karate and modified for men in combat gear.

[danny_galaga]

I believe alot of the smaller american cities embrace wrestling because it's a cheaper sport for their kid to play than football or baseball.

Eh, I see more injuries in wrestling that in other sports...

Danny, have a comments on the WWE?

[danny_galaga]

Plus, catch wrestling and grappling really are "the" homegrown martial arts of the United States.

[danny_galaga]

saw the movie 'cursed' the other night and there was a scene with some wrestling in a high-school. how is it that americans (and bulgarians) think this is cool and 'manly'? it just makes me laugh, all these guys 'going the grope' with each other. and then in this movie the school bully (who is a wrestling champ) accuses the school nerd of being gay! go figure...

Hope it didn't hit too close to home for ya there Danny.

warning, spoiler for the movie 'cursed'







i wish it did! in the movie the BULLY turns out to be gay and the nerd gets his girl (",)

[danny_galaga]

Sigh, some people just don't understand.

[danny_galaga]

[monkeybomb]

  By the way, it is am Olympic sport, so I guess other people besides us Yanks must be doing it as well.

like synchronised swimming....

Yep, just like ss and ballroom dancing our countries compete against each other.