Raine is dead, long live Mame hacks! ;)

[jelwell]

Looks like the last Raine developer just called it quits:
http://www.rainemu.com/msgboard/yabbse/index.php?topic=1034.0

It seems pretty self evident that had Mame devs not pushed users towards Raine that the Raine development would have continued to _eek_ by. But likely the Raine developer was flooded with all the attention and the questions and requests were too much to handle.

I wonder if someone will pick up Raine development, or if this just means that more people will *have* to look towards Mame for their emulation needs.
Joseph Elwell.

[jelwell]

I should point out that the topic title is a biting joke.

Raine is not actually dead, but it doesn't currently have any developers working on it!
Joseph Elwell.

[TheGatesofBill]

Maybe I'll look into switching to Raine than. I'm really starting to dislike MAME.

EDIT: I mean for coding nonsense, not just general use.

[DaemonCollector]

I would love to help out with raine, but I know next to nothing in assembly

[Grasshopper]

I wouldn't mind checking out Raine. Does anyone know whether Mame and Raine ROMs are compatible?

[TheGatesofBill]

Ick, its written in assembly? In that case nevermind.

[DaemonCollector]

When I checked its source forge entry it said its written in Assembly and C. I checked some of the core code and it was C, but I need to look at the driver code

[TheGatesofBill]

If some parts are written in assembly its most likely the CPU bits.

[romperwomb]

I was pretty shocked by Haze's comments.   

I do hope this does kick the RAINE project back into motion and not kill it officially as it would seem...

[daywane]

I just read all the post from your link.
I do not think I like haze.
seems he forgot Dave Foley was the bad person, not the users.
I have just started looking into rain about a week or 2 ago as a alternative to Mame.
i would bet a stink is forming in Mame and I hope some support gets switched to rain.
How can you put something out to open source and then cry with what is being done? ( I mean really Mame is not a emulator )
M= mutli
A = arcade
M = machine
E = EMULATOR
duh

[youki]

If i well understood  MAME would be a kind of big word document... not an Emulator to run game...


That's curious to choose C Languages to wrtie a documentation... 

[daywane]

now that's funny
LOL

[Tiger-Heli]

I just read all the post from your link.
I do not think I like haze.
seems he forgot Dave Foley was the bad person, not the users.

Also notice that on the same page he has Flying Tigers working, and he the one hosting all the "u" builds within days of an official release.  Now re-think how much you don't like him.

Sure, he's arrogant and egotistical, but most good computer coders are (no offense to computer coders, I dabble in it myself, sometimes).

[screaming]

How can you put something out to open source and then cry with what is being done? (

  MAME's license, while technically open source shouldn't be confused with other open source licences like the GPL, BSD or Mozilla.  I obviously can't speak for the MAME dev team, but I think what they were trying to do with the MAME license up until now was to promote open development based around a community of those with like interests.  In that short list of interests one of them is not to play and share games.

   I think that's about as simple as the explanation gets.
 
   I haven't completely formed an opinion yet, but I have to at least respect Haze and the other MAME dev's decision here.  I mean, if it weren't for them I wouldn't have an arcade cabinet.  I, and I think everyone else who uses MAME, has to be at least grateful for that and respect the MAME devs, if not for what they stand code for, but at least for what they've given you.

  In their defense, they are treading a thin line and I can image have been contacted by more than one corporation with a threat of being sued.  That has to be the biggest threat to the MAME project, and as such, the devs (and all you other people who care about MAME) need to protect against that.

  If the MAME team feels they need to restrict the license in order to continue their project, then I support them 100%.  I am of the (naive?) opinion that that's what they're doing.

-sab

[Lilwolf]

Why get angry at Haze?

They have always been very specific about not wanting some things to go into mame.  And they hold the right to say it. 

Its like you write a 3d engine, put it to open source but in the license you state that you don't want it used in adult games (for instance) because its against your religeon.  Well... then people start doing it.  You should get annoyed.

Initially they wheren't against network play.  They where mad that kaillera was adding all the new games.... Also that they didn't release their source... Then when they released their source (that used the dll) that didn't even compile.  They where VERY rude to Haze and kicked him off their boards.

IE, they spit in the mame devs faces and told them to !@# themselfs. 

Its a privilage to use mame... Not a right.  Why would you kick a gift horse in the mouth...

Well, with all the bad dealings with the kaillera guys, the mame team just got a real bad taste in their mouth.

btw, you CAN use mame source to make your own emulator that has ANY game you want in it.  YOU JUST CANT CALL IT MAME....  It doesn't mean you wont be pissing them off... but thats the way its written now.  Different rules to use the name then to use the source code.

[monkeybomb]

The point of the project is to play and share games.  There are WAY too many actions by the developers to counter any words they have.  If they are controling in how they go about it and want things on their terms then fine.  I see most of the documentation arguments, the new licesnce and protection of it as a cover your ass approach.  If I were them I'd do the same thing.

[screaming]

The point of the project is to play and share games.

  I'm not sure what the point of this post was, but no, it's not.

-sab

[Lilwolf]

Actually... its a LOT more open then it used to be.

They opened up the license a LOT because the members themself where breaking them... (IE Zinc and almost every other stand alone emulator out there has a few lines of MAME code)..

So to use the mame source you follow some rules.  And to use the mame name you have different rules...

Not hard to follow... and at most... some people have to change the name of their project.  Annoying... but not the end of the world (or the project). 

[jelwell]

btw, you CAN use mame source to make your own emulator that has ANY game you want in it.

[romperwomb]

Are they doing this for our grandkids?  Have you ever seen the Nickelodeon Porn your grandpa dropped a buffolohead into when he was 15?  Are those skinflicks in the public domain now/yet?

Mame: 1000+ mahjong clones documented and counting.   

[daywane]

sure I can be mad at Haze. he was plain rude.
I do agree about not putting in new games. 3 years is not that long.
I have been waiting longer for deer hunting USA. about to buy the arcade
but plain yelling and telling everyone to go to rain was not right eather.
He did state Mame was for documentation use.
like stated above "c" was a strange form of text to doc a game board?
from what I read he is mad as heck about any mods done.
like Pacmame, cheat codes. exct....
I like the work and all the stuff the Mame Dev's do. I do appreciate it very much.
If you remember I offered $100.00 cash to help fight Dave F.
I do not appreciate being scolded or the holy than thou attitude
he was just plain ranting and in my opinion more or less told people to go play with themselves.
I do not know how to do any hacks. some day I will learn how and plan on it.
many games have been built by upgrading a old game
pong for example evolved into break out

[Chris]

Haze is doing what he has to do to protect the MAME project.  Sure, he could have phrased it nicer, but being a legal entity now with a federal trademark pending, the MAME Devs had to tighten things up.  And I don't think the things he's asking people not to do with MAME are not unreasonable at all, and the consenquence for doing so is that you can't use the MAME name.  Why is that so horrific?

The problem is that the MAME community has been like one big hippie commune, sharing the love and raging against The Man.  Well, now that the trademark issue brought on by Foley has forced the MAME Devs to take responsibility, they are now The Man, and we don't like it.

Look past Haze's frustration and see what he's actually saying, and it's really not that big of a change.

--Chris

[SirPoonga]

Mame: 1000+ mahjong clones documented and counting.

[romperwomb]

Looks like Haze has decided to step down as the MAME project head.

http://haze.mameworld.info/

After much thought I

[paigeoliver]

From everything I have seen Aaron is more of a "Lets play the games" kind of guy.

Actually, I would have no problem if they just closed up shop and ceased development altogether. Mame was done 4 years ago as far as I am concerned.

[jelwell]

Did anyone notice that Haze is developing for Raine now? The irony was not lost on me.

Let's recap.

Here's a link to Haze's original comments concerning Raine.

For a few minutes, before I reread his original comments, I thought Haze might have actually preferred Raine and was simply encouraging users over to a "better" system. But with quotes like, "if you

[elvis]

All this politics makes my head spin.

Last I checked, I played games because they are fun.  And last I checked, I code because it's fun.  All the open source projects I contribute to, I do so for fun.  Quite frankly when politics take over, I leave projects.

All this MAME vs RAINE vs world business is just rediculous.  Back to having fun.

[Lilwolf]

Haze was NEVER against Raine in the least. 

Raine is optimized for playing games.

Mame is for documenting the hardware.

He was asking people to write code for the proper emulator... Thats it.  Don't add network support to an emulator that doesn't want it when there is a great emulator that would LOVE network support.

And the death of Raine was BECAUSE of Haze in that people took interest... But the guy who was doing all the updates wanted to quit... but didn't for a long time because nobody was sending in updates... so it wasn't a hard job.

If you have a mod to an emulator... And you think it will be fun...  Try and see if you can do it to Raine.

If you WANT to do it with MAME... Do it... but call it something else... (not SuperMAME... but maybe MySuperEmulator... and give thanks for the cores ect used)... Its not like every emulator isn't already using one of mame's core or some of mame's code anyway.

[jelwell]

Haze was NEVER against Raine in the least.

[Lilwolf]

Raine was already dead.  but it wasn't announced because the maintainer didn't put that much effort into it to announce the dead status... because it didn't matter because nobody other then him had done anything for it.

But it died because nobody was working on it.

And just because people work on cool things doesn't make them annoying.  What makes people annoying is when they add features which to a project who ask them not to.  And if they focused their energy into a project WHO WOULD like their help, then they would be removed from that annoying status.  And they didn't think they where being annoying, and the people who like cool things don't think their work was annoying. 

Haze's problem is he could have said the same thing a year earlier and Raine could have got a bunch of people working on it.

Raine never seemed to care about adding speed hacks, adding video modes to make it look better (hence the FX updates).  And I'm sure they would have loved good network support. 

And the framework its built on I hear could be added to have a TON more systems run on it.  And emulating a system where you have a documented emulator is much easier.

so if people want to play KOF200X multiplayer on the net.  Then Raine really was a better starting point.

But saying Haze killed a project that didn't have a single game added in a year where almost every game emulated was in other emulators is rediculous.

And saying that at one point Raine couldn't have used help by people who like network support, extra video settings, or any of the other 'annoying' additions is also rediculous.