New Mame License...

[lokki]

Looks like there is a new license for mame over at

http://mamedev.com/license.html

Along with a legal FAQ.

[Flinkly]

sounds like we have to make some new tokens...




so we can add in the TM of course.

[monkeybomb]

Can someone breakdown the implications and possible practicle outcomes of this?

Also it looks like ultracade gets to use MAME as long as they have documentation of their rights from the owners of the games.  Help me out here.

[Flinkly]

with this, Nicola is trying to protect mame from stupid people, mostly:

1.

[GGKoul]

Make sure you download the new MAME Logo.  http://mamedev.com/logo.html

[RetroJames]

Can someone breakdown the implications and possible practicle outcomes of this?

Also it looks like ultracade gets to use MAME as long as they have documentation of their rights from the owners of the games.

[Tiger-Heli]

I would think this also means the rom burners, who are on the edge if not over the line already anyway, cannot include mame source or executables on thier rom distribution disks, or make statments that in thier advertisements that the roms are for mame use etc.

They couldn't include MAME source or executables on the SAME disk under the previous license.  Although it will be interesting to see how they specify the 0.95 or the 0.95u1 set without referring to MAME.

Folks who sell marquees or other artwork with the mame logo or word will have to ask permission.

And web page authors will have to put TM after the first instance of MAME.

So if I wanted to sell the OmegaMame (interesting, I wonder what the rules are for words that include the text "mame")

Products or services that wish to use the name MAME or a derivative thereof must obtain explicit permission from the trademark owner (Nicola) to do so in all cases.

So technically, you need to ask Nicola if it's okay to call your cab OmegaMame.  Probably doesn't apply to home use, but probably would if you ever sold it.

- anyway, if I want to sell it on ebay I would need to remove the mame source, and advertise it as a PC powered arcade cabinet which can run pc based games and other software.  Or something to that effect.

And either change the marquee, or get Nicola's permission and add TM to the end of it.

IANAL either, FWIW.

[Lilwolf]

btw, Haze mentions that they will give permission to cab builders who only sell with legal roms...

goto the official mame board for details. 

Of course... Thats Haze and Nicolas is the one who needs to give the permissions...  But hopefully it will be ok.

[monkeybomb]

btw, Haze mentions that they will give permission to cab builders who only sell with legal roms...

goto the official mame board for details. 

Of course... Thats Haze and Nicolas is the one who needs to give the permissions...  But hopefully it will be ok.

That's why I thought ultracade would have a right to use it, even IF they didn't use it in the past.

[DreamWeb]

OmegaMame[tm]   (TM)

Good name.  It's mine now.

[lokki]

Another interesting thing.
It looks like builds which add new games are now allowed as long as they don't use the word MAME in their name

[Daniel270]

Quick question...

How will this affect MameWAH and other programs which use MAME as part of the name?

[Flinkly]

genericemulaterWAH, i think.

[Gunstar Hero]

Since this is all fairly grey market stuff anyways, I bet nothing's gonna change. People who are already ignoring ROM copyrights (like burners, cab builders, ect...) will probably lose no sleep over ignoring the new MAME trademark. It mostly just covers the MAME devs better now, and makes sure no one is going to steal the name from them.

[Buddabing]

Another interesting thing.
It looks like builds which add new games are now allowed as long as they don't use the word MAME in their name

They allow for derived builds, with their consent. I've asked for permission to use "BuddaMAME".

[lokki]

Another interesting thing.
It looks like builds which add new games are now allowed as long as they don't use the word MAME in their name

They allow for derived builds, with their consent. I've asked for permission to use "BuddaMAME".

I was refering to builds that Add New games (KOF2004 etc). Not sure what your build does


http://mamedev.com/legalfaq.html

Can I make my own changes to MAME and distribute them?
According to the license, yes. However, if you wish to distribute your changes, you must abide by the terms of the license, which state that you must include the full source code of those changes.

Furthermore, you may not call your modified version MAME or anything derived from the name MAME without obtaining permission to use the MAME trademark. In order to obtain permission, your modified version must adhere to the spirit of MAME and the guidelines expressed in the About MAME section.

[JB]

I would think this also means the rom burners, who are on the edge if not over the line already anyway, cannot include mame source or executables on thier rom distribution disks, or make statments that in thier advertisements that the roms are for mame use etc.

They couldn't include MAME source or executables on the SAME disk under the previous license.  Although it will be interesting to see how they specify the 0.95 or the 0.95u1 set without referring to MAME.

Popular/Noteworthy/Famous Arcade Machine Emulator v0.95.

[jelwell]

Another interesting thing.
It looks like builds which add new games are now allowed as long as they don't use the word MAME in their name

They allow for derived builds, with their consent. I've asked for permission to use "BuddaMAME".

I was refering to builds that Add New games (KOF2004 etc). Not sure what your build does

I read the license the same way. Take a look at R. Belmont's reply to my post on the mame board:

> I thought there was going to be more restrictions on what can be done with the
> code? The new license implies that I can now enable disabled roms, and remove
> startup screens! eek. Am I missing something?

You're missing the difference between the license and terms of use. The first MAME distribution under the new license will make this much clearer.

In context here

[lokki]

Not entirely sure what that means.
I was refering to this, which says the license agreement does not forbid you from adding new games, but you should not call it *mame*

http://mamedev.com/legalfaq.html

Can I add games to MAME that are newer than 3 years and distribute my changes?
There is nothing to stop you, according to the license, as long as you also distribute the full source code as well. However, if you do so, you must not call your modified version MAME or anything derived from the name MAME. Because adding recent games goes against the wishes of the MAME team expressed in About MAME section, there is no chance you will obtain permission to use the MAME trademark.

[jelwell]

I hope they had a lawyer when they made this license. This clause irks me:

Redistributions that are modified from the original source must include the complete source code, including the source code for all components used

[SirPoonga]

I hope they had a lawyer when they made this license. This clause irks me:

Redistributions that are modified from the original source must include the complete source code, including the source code for all components used

[paigeoliver]

I am fairly sure none of this is applicable to anyone who downloaded the OLD Mame versions. You can't go back in time and change the license that was distributed with a previous product.

Of course, none of it really means much of anything anyway.

[elvis]

Of course, none of it really means much of anything anyway.

Most licenses out there don't mean much to anyone who does the right thing.  For home users enjoying the nostalgia that MAME provides, the license really means squat.

It's just there as an unfortunate side effect of modern society where the odd bad apple will always be there to try and steal other people's hard work.  Luckily the MAME devs are a fairly sensible and giving bunch, and have written a legally restrictive yet socially friendly license that doesn't hurt the people who enjoy the product the most.

[jelwell]

Of course, none of it really means much of anything anyway.

Most licenses out there don't mean much to anyone who does the right thing.

[Lilwolf]

btw, there are TWO things you have to consider.

When is it acceptable to use the MAME logo...

And when its acceptable to use the MAME source...

they ARE different.

Adding new games and not using the MAME logo is very acceptable.. For the logo side of it.

But using the mame source to allow games newer then 3 years old or which are still being sold by the original company is NOT. 

The break down was for Zinc and basically every other emulator out there which borrow a ton of code from mame for the cpus or whatever.  So they add games and can not be called MAME but still have the right to use mames source code (as long as they don't allow newer then 3 year old games, and also distribute all their source).

But 1337mAmE is NOT.

The questions is if MisfitMAME (and nonameMAME) because they allow for different games, but not new games.  They would have to ask.

[Flinkly]

wait...are you guys all saying that we can play newer games on mame, but that for legal reasons, we don't?  news to me...i never really paid attention to the mame side of arcade stuff though, just use it.  like they say, "as long as it works, don't fix it."

i just thought it was tough to integrate newer stuff, which is why mame stayed behind arcades.

i have always wanted to play metal slug 5...   

[lokki]

wait...are you guys all saying that we can play newer games on mame, but that for legal reasons, we don't?

[Lilwolf]

You have to either find an illegal build or do it yourself.

There are a few that keep a ton of newer games up.

[jelwell]

But using the mame source to allow games newer then 3 years old or which are still being sold by the original company is NOT.

[TheGatesofBill]

I don't know how Alan got away with his Mametweaks or NoNameMame ever existed. Both get rid of nag screens

I'm not familiar with Alan or Mametweaks, but I can explain how I was in the clear. I didn't "get rid of nag screens", they were still there, and on by default. I merely added the option of disabling them, and the MAME devs were okay with that. In later builds I included some newer games, but never really told anyone about them, and included them in the source code only, you had to set some option at the time you compiled in order for them to be enabled, which was also allowed by the MAME devs. So I never did anything I wasn't allowed to, but I did take it as far as I could.

EDIT: Oh, and I should mention that I'll take a look through this new license when I get a free second, and before any future versions of No Name MAME are released to make sure I know exactly what I'm allowed to do.

[Santoro]

RE Tokens,

I would argue that since I got permission Santeri Saarimaa at the time, I am fine.  I also put the URL on the back in consideration of the permission to use it. 

We'll see.

[jelwell]

I merely added the option of disabling them, and the MAME devs were okay with that. In later builds I included some newer games, but never really told anyone about them, and included them in the source code only, you had to set some option at the time you compiled in order for them to be enabled, which was also allowed by the MAME devs.

No offense to The GatesofBill, but these are the kinds of things that are explicitly against both the spirit and the old license. Yet you got away with it because you didn't tell anyone.

I tried to get permission for things that are valid with the license I got harassed. It's clear that in the Mame community it's better to do and keep quiet than to ask and then ignore.
Joseph Elwell.

[Lilwolf]

Don't worry GateofBill (or is the opposite of No offense -> take offense??)

They don't have problems with you being able to disable them... That they are by default. 

They know EXACTLY why some are disabled (like you can't use it in a cabinet).  This was added because some (*cough arcadeathome cough*) had them completely disabled and by default.

You can disable them in the standard build.  They missed a few (bad dumps).  If they where that worried they wouldn't allow you to disable the majority of them.

So if the default is they are shown.  You will be fine.  They only talk about enabling games.

[Lilwolf]

WRONG!

there are two items here.  1) to be able to use mames name.... 2) to be able to use mame source.

You CAN NOT use mames source for ANY GAME that is earlier then 3 years and still being sold AND DISTRIBUTE IT... (but I think it might have been distribute it in binary format.... I would have to reread this).

You HAVE to release ALL your source and the source of all libraries.

You MUST continue the license.

For the name MAME in part of your distribute

You CAN NOT add any games that mame has left out... yadda yadda...

So Zinc could not use MAMES name even though it uses a lot of the same code (before mame emulated all the same games... ) but if Zinc started emulated a newer game then 3 years... it wouldn't be allowed to use the source either. 

But using the mame source to allow games newer then 3 years old or which are still being sold by the original company is NOT.

[Lilwolf]

You want to ask Nicola anyway.  He is the ONLY one with the trademark.  Santeri doesn't legally count.  But mention that you've been selling them and that Santeri gave you permission ages ago and I'm sure you will be fine.

They aren't worried about people like you...

RE Tokens,

I would argue that since I got permission Santeri Saarimaa at the time, I am fine.

[Santoro]

You want to ask Nicola anyway. He is the ONLY one with the trademark.

Note already sent.  :-)

[jelwell]

You're telling me that the FAQ is wrong?
hah, good one. try again.
Joseph Elwell.

WRONG!

there are two items here.

[TheGatesofBill]

I am so freaking confused. Can't someone just tell me how far I can go? I got my old limits by reading the license and talking to people, but I'm definately no lawyer.

[jelwell]

I am so freaking confused. Can't someone just tell me how far I can go? I got my old limits by reading the license and talking to people, but I'm definately no lawyer.

So no matter what, unless you plan on dropping "mame" from your nonameMAME build you'll have to get approval for use of the trademark. So, email the devs and ask them to allow you to use the trademark - or change the name of your build.

Although I seriously doubt they're financially able nor legally able to protect their trademark since they've let it go this long. (think kleenex - you can't start protecting a trademark that has been commonly used for ages).
Joseph Elwell.

[Tiger-Heli]

jelwell, lightenup -

I got so much flak on mameworld for merely mentioning working on features that mamedev doesn't like. But Alan and TheGatesofBill garner respect from the community (in the form of linkage) for openly flaunting the wishes of MAME DEVS.

I don't think TGOB garners extreme respect from the community (MAMEDevs), nor flaunts the wishes of MAME DEVS.

TGOB added some options to disable startup screens, but MAME did this in the official build not too long after anyway.

I'm not exactly sure how he got away with adding PONG, but he did, and I remember him asking about it.

I also think that he also posts quite a few bug fixes on www.mame.net, so maybe that earns him some respect.

As far as Alan - I love some of his tweaks (especially -ssf and -fsf), but when I mentioned this on either MW or www.mame.net, I think it was RBelmont who called it "easily the most useless and least important change to MAME in the last few years", so I'm not sure what you mean about him garnering respect.

Finally, regardless of the license, MAME's unofficial policy has really been that you couldn't distribute BINARIES with those features (newer games, no nag screens) enabled.  And by distribute, they really meant slapping them up on a website.

I have posted source code changes to do this years ago, and no one complained, and have also sent binaries to a few friends with the changes (covertly), and no one complained about that either.

The new license ALLOWS you to do this as long as you don't have MAME in the name of the project, so I'm not sure what you're so upset about.